Promotions: The Final Solution...

[Camikaze]

What is the solution to the oft fretted over Civilization dilemma of promotions? How do we fix something that is completely unrealistic, is trying to represent something completely unrealistic, and yet is essential to warfare in the game?

Here are some ideas, proudly brought to you by Rusty Edge, Argetnyx and yours truly (without their permission, mind you (sorry if you don't want it quoted)):

I agree that it seems wrong to have such wide open promotions. I think that in-field promotions should be both immidiate and limited to either the promotion line(s) in which the unit originally trained (until it's maxed out ), and the ones applicable to it's actual experience.

For example- a unit would have to have healed some hitpoints to be eligible for a medic promo, succesfully attacked acrosss a river or from a ship to be eligible for Amphib, fought in a forest for Woodsman, defended a city for CG, attcked one for CR, defeated a melee unit for Shock, an archery unit for Cover, etc.

I guess promos that confer certain extra abillities such as Visibillity, or proposed promos such as Capture, Withdrawal, or Ambush would require XP and training in a barracks or port.

When you build a unit in a city with a barracks, instead of automatically becoming a veteran (which makes no sense), you get to pick what the unit will specialize in. This specialization cannot be changed, and will remain untill the unit upgrades (where it is given a different one), or (obviously) it is destroyed.

A had an idea to slightly fix the promotion system that is similar to the initial training idea. Let XP work the same way, and promotions be available at exactly the same time. The difference is in this idea that promotions must be taken the turn after the XP level has been achieved, or as soon as they are available. If they are not taken then, they will not be available again until you reach the next level. This prevents unpromoted units from wandering around with the ability to become City Raider 3 at the drop of a hat, and would make things a lot more realistic.

Is the solution one of these ideas? Is the solution a combination of these ideas? Or, even better, is the solution a completely different idea? Cookie for anyone who can come with a good idea.

 

[Rusty Edge]

Well, IRL, you can gain abillity by training and studying in a school, and you can gain abillity in the workplace. Theory and practice, better if you have both. I figure military abillity is similar in that regard. There are certain things like scuba-diving and parachuting and flying that are too dangerous to learn by experience, and better to go for school for.

On second thought, maybe Combat promotions should only be available
( other than the Aggressive Civ starting star) through actual combat. Drill promotions are a more likely result of actual training to load, aim and fire until you get better and faster.


That reminds me of a biography I read ( Zachory Taylor?) about 40 years ago. When he was in a one-room school, the teacher had a guest demonstrate how to load, aim, and fire a flintlock while at a dead run. All the kids were terribly impressed, and when they asked him what inspired him to learn such skills, he replied that when indians attacked him by surprise, he had to.

Adapt or die. In -field drill promotions aren't out of the question.

 

[Ramesses]

Promotions should be an automatic thing. What promotions your units learn as soon as they are trained are determined by going into the city screen and highlighting them. After that, promotions are awarded based on the battles they encounter.

Each promotion type also has their own XP counter, so getting promoted in one category will not hurt your chances in another.

It's one less element of micromanagement as well, which is a plus.

 

[Camikaze]

So you're suggesting that perhaps a particular city specialises in a particular promotion, and all units built in that city get that promotion?

One particularly unrealistic but oft overlooked aspect of promotions that I would like to highlight further and put forward for discussion is the fact that whilst a particular unit gains experience from the combat they are in, IRL, the soldiers in the unit would not be the same from one turn to the next, making the experience idea moot in terms of realism. Anyone got a solution, other than getting rid of combat experience? And I suppose the same goes for regular promotions as a whole- a unit would realistically require training every turn to uphold their promotions, given the realistic fact that the soldiers comprising a unit are different from one turn to the next. Is there any way to logically justify this, or should there be some sort of regular fortification needed in a city with a barracks to maintain skill levels?

 

[CivMyWay]

So you're suggesting that perhaps a particular city specialises in a particular promotion, and all units built in that city get that promotion?

One particularly unrealistic but oft overlooked aspect of promotions that I would like to highlight further and put forward for discussion is the fact that whilst a particular unit gains experience from the combat they are in, IRL, the soldiers in the unit would not be the same from one turn to the next, making the experience idea moot in terms of realism. Anyone got a solution, other than getting rid of combat experience? And I suppose the same goes for regular promotions as a whole- a unit would realistically require training every turn to uphold their promotions, given the realistic fact that the soldiers comprising a unit are different from one turn to the next. Is there any way to logically justify this, or should there be some sort of regular fortification needed in a city with a barracks to maintain skill levels?

In the same way that a great leader is not going to live for eons. There is definitely a balance between realism and gameplay; and a necessary level of abstraction from reality.

Requiring training each turn to maintain a promotion would be horrible, imo. And I think combat experience is too valuable just to discard out of hand because it doesn't fit logically and neatly. I think it makes it enjoyable as you get your units up the food chain; provides incentive to not just treat them expendably.

You could argue that unless the unit is wiped out in a battle there will always be some grizzly veterans who can pass down the tricks of the trade to the new fodder.

Perhaps a promotion only lasts a certain number of turns? The more times you select that promotion, the longer it could last. Thus representing a civ-wide skill. (I don't particularly even like my idea).

At this stage I have no answer that is worthy of typing, but having already made the effort...

 

[Rusty Edge]

So you're suggesting that perhaps a particular city specialises in a particular promotion, and all units built in that city get that promotion?

One particularly unrealistic but oft overlooked aspect of promotions that I would like to highlight further and put forward for discussion is the fact that whilst a particular unit gains experience from the combat they are in, IRL, the soldiers in the unit would not be the same from one turn to the next, making the experience idea moot in terms of realism. Anyone got a solution, other than getting rid of combat experience? And I suppose the same goes for regular promotions as a whole- a unit would realistically require training every turn to uphold their promotions, given the realistic fact that the soldiers comprising a unit are different from one turn to the next. Is there any way to logically justify this, or should there be some sort of regular fortification needed in a city with a barracks to maintain skill levels?

In the game it's experience points and promotions, but if it were Real Life it would be a Regimental history, a standard to live up to , and every time new people joined, they would be trying to prove that they belonged, and the veterans would be trying to prove to the rookies that the veterans weren't all talk, or has beens. It's a lot like a storied sports franchise. Also, there would be a collective wisdom residing in the commissioned and non-commisioned officers. Appeals can always be made to their sense of duty, honor and country at critical moments in terms of that regimental history.

Times change, people change, opposition changes, but in many ways, the NY Yankees, REAL Madrid, The AllBlacks, the University of Notre Dame, the US 82nd Airborne, the 101st Airborne and the 2nd Armored are what they are.

 

[Camikaze]

In the same way that a great leader is not going to live for eons. There is definitely a balance between realism and gameplay; and a necessary level of abstraction from reality.

I suppose that will have to suffice as the explanation. It works well for the game, but leaves something to be desired.

Requiring training each turn to maintain a promotion would be horrible, imo. And I think combat experience is too valuable just to discard out of hand because it doesn't fit logically and neatly. I think it makes it enjoyable as you get your units up the food chain; provides incentive to not just treat them expendably.

Perhaps there should be a compromise between the two? A unit must be in a city with a barracks for a turn every 20 turns, or something, in order to maintain its promotions? It would additionally serve as a counter to the ease of aggressive warfare, IMO.

You could argue that unless the unit is wiped out in a battle there will always be some grizzly veterans who can pass down the tricks of the trade to the new fodder.

That goes against the distinction between combat experience and training experience, as Rusty Edge elucidated, if there was to be such a distinction.

Perhaps a promotion only lasts a certain number of turns? The more times you select that promotion, the longer it could last. Thus representing a civ-wide skill. (I don't particularly even like my idea).

Neither do I really. It has merit, and I suppose is part of what I suggested above for a unit's compulsory training turn, but I don't think it would really work implemented as a civilization wide skill.

 

[Camikaze]

In the game it's experience points and promotions, but if it were Real Life it would be a Regimental history, a standard to live up to , and every time new people joined, they would be trying to prove that they belonged, and the veterans would be trying to prove to the rookies that the veterans weren't all talk, or has beens. It's a lot like a storied sports franchise. Also, there would be a collective wisdom residing in the commissioned and non-commisioned officers. Appeals can always be made to their sense of duty, honor and country at critical moments in terms of that regimental history.

Times change, people change, opposition changes, but in many ways, the NY Yankees, REAL Madrid, The AllBlacks, the University of Notre Dame, the US 82nd Airborne, the 101st Airborne and the 2nd Armored are what they are.

But this would still require a degree of training (such as fortifying in a city every 20 turns) to maintain. I mean, professional sports teams train every day in specialised facilities, so, to go with the analogy, so should military units.

And even considering a collection of wisdom through regimental history, without some sort of recent combat experience, there would be a skills decay.

 

[AmazonQueen]

But this would still require a degree of training (such as fortifying in a city every 20 turns) to maintain. I mean, professional sports teams train every day in specialised facilities, so, to go with the analogy, so should military units.

And even considering a collection of wisdom through regimental history, without some sort of recent combat experience, there would be a skills decay.

Too much micromanagement plus pulling a unit back from the frontline to maintain its promotions seems unrealistic. Tank regiments don't train in cities or barracks. In the British armies case its Salisbury Plain, a big open space.

Very few military bases are in cities nowadays although I suppose forts could also be used (which given forts are an underused asset in civ at present wouldn't be a bad idea).

What does seem doable to me and wouldn't add to micromanagement would be:

1. No saving promotions. Once you earn the XP for a promotion thay must be spent. No highly trained units that don't decide what they are trained in until the moment before a battle.

2. Limiting choice of promotions to those appropriate for the way it earned the XP assuming the game can handle this behinds the scenes.

A promotion could also be viewed as issueing a unit with specialist equipment and training in its use. This seems most applicable to promotions like amphibious.

 

[Camikaze]

Yeah, those two ideas work. With the second one, I assume you mean that you would limit the promotions to the originally selected promotion line, i.e. after you select city raider, all additional promotions must be further city raider promotions, until there are no more, in which case you select a new line?

 

[Truronian]

What about truly automatic promotions... If a unit attacks a city sucessfully he becomes better at attacking cities. If he successfully attacks across water 3 times he gains Amphibious... that kind of thing.

 

[Camikaze]

That could work...although it would be impossible to gain a city defence promotion without being attacked, for example, which seems a bit silly. Realistically, a unit could be trained in the art of defending a city without experiencing combat.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Yeah, those two ideas work. With the second one, I assume you mean that you would limit the promotions to the originally selected promotion line, i.e. after you select city raider, all additional promotions must be further city raider promotions, until there are no more, in which case you select a new line?

That would probably be the simplest way rather than have the game keep track of how much XP you'd earnt towards different promotions which would -
a) tie up computer resources
b) possibly lead to experienced units who had failed to get any promotions

 

[Camikaze]

Another issue with that is that promotions such as First Strike and Combat don't really relate to a particular type of battle, so there would either have to be some random computer selection done, or a choice to set the initial promotion line.

 

[Sexton]

Here are my two cents:

Get rid of promotions altogether but instead:

Replace Combat promotions with area effect experience! Every unit that is in the fat square of a city with barracks automaticly gets +10-20% combat modifier.

City Garrison promotions are replaced with city improvements CG1 -> Walls, CG2 -> Towers, CG3 -> Castle

City Raider promotions are replaced with the nessecity of bringing siege weapons when attacking fortified cities. You don't need city raiding skills because the enemy can't have city garrison skills without fortifications. Maybe add new units with innate City Raider skills like Battering Ram or Siege Towers.

Drill promotions would be innate to archery and gunpowder units.

This IMHO represents the soldiers not being the same persons from turn to turn because combat modifiers are granted from your civilizations knowledge and tradition of waging war.

Edit to expand a little bit:

-all units should cost population
-military units should be able to build roads and forts as well as be able to join city as a citizen in a time of peace
-units that are just men (horsemen, axemen, pikemen) should not take time to produce, the drawback would be that the unit types you could train would require certaing buildings:

nothing: warriors
forge: axemen, swordmen
stables: mounted units (knights would also require the forge)

-ships and siege weapons would take turns to build but could be taken over by the enemy

All and all, I really dislike the idea that building a market takes so much time in small cities. I mean how hard can it be to make a couple of stands and start selling some fruit?
How about buildings also requiring population? You would only need large enough of a city and the technology to start bartering.
So in a small city you coudn't have everything, only what you need the most. Cities take hundreds of years to grow big, not to build forges, stables, markets and universities.

 

[Camikaze]

Here are my two cents:

Get rid of promotions altogether but instead:

Replace Combat promotions with area effect experience! Every unit that is in the fat square of a city with barracks automaticly gets +10-20% combat modifier.

City Garrison promotions are replaced with city improvements CG1 -> Walls, CG2 -> Towers, CG3 -> Castle

City Raider promotions are replaced with the nessecity of bringing siege weapons when attacking fortified cities. You don't need city raiding skills because the enemy can't have city garrison skills without fortifications. Maybe add new units with innate City Raider skills like Battering Ram or Siege Towers.

Drill promotions would be innate to archery and gunpowder units.

This IMHO represents the soldiers not being the same persons from turn to turn because combat modifiers are granted from your civilizations knowledge and tradition of waging war.

This would probably work quite well, and would, I might add, fit in quite well with my siege attachment idea- having an artillery piece attached to your attacker would provide the city raider bonus.

Edit to expand a little bit:

-all units should cost population
-military units should be able to build roads and forts as well as be able to join city as a citizen in a time of peace

I don't think this would work very effectively, and would make cities way too powerful, and have the potential to have 100 population as soon as they are built. More so, one additional citizen can sometimes represent, say, 1 000 000 people, so having one unit make up that difference would be quite unrealistic. Also, in wartime production would be severely diminished, with the evacuation of troops. This wouldn't be truly reflective of a functioning wartime economy, which is more productive than normal.

-units that are just men (horsemen, axemen, pikemen) should not take time to produce, the drawback would be that the unit types you could train would require certaing buildings:

nothing: warriors
forge: axemen, swordmen
stables: mounted units (knights would also require the forge)

It's a bit dangerous to game balance to, firstly, change the production system so drastically, and secondly, to allow every city to build a unit a turn. That would just be like an instant win for the civ with the biggest empire.

 

[pesgores]

I normally train specialised units but it is hard to do it. Some promotions are only available if you have another previous special promotion. Meh. I want to train guerrillas from start.

 

[exhile]

I like current promotions and don't want them changed unless I can beta test a new combat promotion systems that is better than what exists now.

 

[Gamemaster77]

I like the idea about only getting promotions from say if you win in a forest. You are eligable to get Woodsman I

 

[moscaverde]

Really liked Sexton's idea of area and city effects. I believe its more realistic and takes out the ridiculous maceman -> rifleman with cover promotion or units with the same promotions for millenia.