Prophecy of Ragnorak

[Enthralled]

So I bought BtS, played a few scenarios, got hooked on Age of Ice, downloaded FFH and now I have yet to launch BtS again =P

So coming from a total FFH newbie, I can not figure out why in the world I would ever want to increase the Armageddon counter. After playing a few games I decided I would play an Evil civ and try to bring about the Apocalypse as a strategy. In my first attempt I founded the Viel, and then made a pact with the Infernals, thought it was really cool that I could switch to playing them, but then I was quickly slaughtered by my old civ.

So on attempt number two I again founded the Viel, this time I did not switch civs (which resulted in the Infernals only ever having two cities, and as only Evil civs were left in the game at that point I could never convince them to go to war with anyone). I also built the Prophecy of Ragnorak and started to pump out units each turn.

I was really surprised when the famine affected me as much as anyone else. I was even more surprised when the horseman ran around killing my units and destroying my cities. I had to quit the game when I pushed the counter to 100, and had a huge army of my own units laying waste to my civ.

Other than the rare promotion to empower a unit based off of the counter (which I think is rather weak considering what you have to go through to get it), can you explain why it is ever in anyones interest to push the counter up?

All of the civs left in the game were evil, and yet they all quickly hated me for destroying the world (Well the useless infernals still loved me). My lands were destroyed, the horseman only ever seemed to attack me, and pushing the counter to its max gave me no benefit despite all the effort it took while the world was being destroyed around me.

I just feel like I really am missing some aspect of it.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think most of us agree it currently needs to be reworked to give some reason to destroy the world. Currently it is very good for the Infernals, and ok for barbarian trait leaders (both Clan leaders and one Dovello. If you can keep your score low enough then you remain at peace with the barbs, who control all the Armageddon heroes. Of course, to actually win you would probably need to get you score high enough to lose this advantage) and the Sheaim (they get free units from their planar gates, more with a higher AC, but they still suffer its effects like everyone else). It is actually better for the good-aligned Luchuirp that for most evil civs, since their workers are faster and most of their melee units are golems (who, as non-living units are immune to fear and some AC events). Also, and high AC is needed for the Runes of Kilmorph hero The Mithril Golem, which is the strongest unit in the game (but can't get any promotions except through Luchiurp UBs and Barnaxus). All AV leaders will like you for destroying the world, but everyone else will hate you.

Worse yet is the fact that hell terrain (which is generally a bad thing, but does provide 2 very nice military resources) NEVER spreads in good civ's territory. Also, iirc this is not based on current but starting alignment (I think t is based on palaces), so a good civ turned evil would never suffer the consequences. That really needs to be changed. A high enough level of the Altar of the Luonnatar (Consecrated?) will also keep all hell terrain out, but evil civs cannot build the altars.

Many people have proposed an evil, AV victory condition requiring a high AC, but I would much prefer adding more rituals that make a high AC more useful. For example, before the AC was added one of the major events (Avatar of Wrath?) was created by a ritual which also made peace between the barbs and the AV players. A ritual with that effect is sorely needed. Perhaps it or another ritual could also grant all your units the Stigmata promotion. We need more rituals anyway, since the Celestial compass is less useful now that half of the rituals were changed to AC events.

 

[it-ogo]

Some Manichaeic heresy.

I believe that both "good" and "evil" civs should work for Armageddon. They want fight to each other in the final battle end each wants to win earning for himself Heaven or Hell correspondingly. Neutral civs are only who may want to preserve the world, guard holy places etc.

In my ideas Hell and Heaven should perform symmetric envasion: heaven terrain spreads in good territory. When you perform Infernal Pact you have a devil as a leader (or your leader turns into devil and posess infernal trait), have some army of demons immediately, your units one by one turns into demonic analogues, your population turns one by one into demons and do not need food. The same for good: you can perform Heaven Pact first and posess celestial trait. Angels do not need food too. You regularly receive some enforcements from the Hell and sometimes some specific independent apocaliptic creatures who are in peace with you but in war with neutral and good. But symmetrically come independent angels who judge everybody and punish those, who are not enough good, for their sins, razing cities.

So, good and evil have regular enforcements depending on the AC but suffer from revolutions of cities which population do not want to convert into demons or angels and desertion of units (especially who are marked with conservative neutral religions (Runes, Leaves, Overlords)). Again neutral units died in battle turn into angels or demons. So goods and evils have huge bonuses depending on the AC and war but only one team may be infernal or celestial in the same time. You can subdue to one of that teams and join it by researching one of the Pacts. Celestial civ may research Infernal Pact and fall from heaven but good is more rigorous then evil and does not allow demons to become angels. And of cause there is no way back to the living state when you are dead.

That's the logic I like.

 

[jwin]

There is a difference between being evil and wanting to destroy the world. From a storyline prospective, only the Sheim and Infernals want to destroy the world. Of the religions that can leave you evil, only ashen veil wants to destroy the world. So, roleplaying wise, alot of the time evil civs won't want the AC to rise.

From a game point of view, you have to plan ahead if you want to use AC as a weapon. As was mentioned, the sheim get very powerful with their planar gates as AC goes up. Barbarian trait protects you from the horsemen, and if you can get units close to them, you can can sometimes clean up behind them. The clan is also made up mostly of fire resistant units (with the orc promotion), so they can cross burning sands while your opponents might not be able to.

Some tips if you want to use AC:
1: When you are getting close to the horsemen appearing, declare war on someone not adjacent to you and raze a few of their cities. The horsemen will (in theory) preferentially choose a starting area already controlled by barbs. If you can get the barbs to make a city somewhere not near you, you should have less problems with the horsemen.
2: Until they start to appear, keep your settled land area small so they are less likely to appear near you.
3: If you have barabarian trait, make sure that there is no neutral or barbarian area near you completely surrounded by your cultural borers. They may appear there and get stuck, not able to cross out.
4: When it gets to avatar of wrath time, make alot of cheap low level units. You loose a percentage of your units, and if all you have are good ones, that is what you will loose. If you have bad ones as well, he will get stuck with them. After the wrath, you can upgrade your low level units if you want.
5: Don't get the counter too high until you can defend yourself from your neighbors. Wars get more frequent as the AC goes up, and especially if you are the only AV civ, the wars will likely target you.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

So I bought BtS, played a few scenarios, got hooked on Age of Ice, downloaded FFH and now I have yet to launch BtS again =P

Great, our sinister plan is working!

So on attempt number two I again founded the Viel, this time I did not switch civs (which resulted in the Infernals only ever having two cities, and as only Evil civs were left in the game at that point I could never convince them to go to war with anyone).

You can force hyborem into a war if you research religious law (I think that's the name) and build a high priest. By promoting him to a patriarch, you can force all your coreligionists into your wars.

I was really surprised when the famine affected me as much as anyone else. I was even more surprised when the horseman ran around killing my units and destroying my cities. I had to quit the game when I pushed the counter to 100, and had a huge army of my own units laying waste to my civ.

Hell terrain is not intended to be entirely beneficial to even those bringing it in. But if you are Ashen Veil, your demons get a bonus on it. It destroys some bonuses, especially health ones, but reveals some powerful ones as well. Also, if you are Ashen Veil you can adopt the most powerful civic in the game, sacrifice the weak, and not really care too much about famine.
Also, at the highest levels, many units will die. Actually, many living units will die and or join the barbarians. If you can make sure most of your armies are not living--golems, demons like eidolons, summons--then you have an advantage.

As for the horsemen, well... if you raised the counter high, you need to do it expecting and ready for them. Not really fair to say to a new player, I know... but next time, don't burn cities or spread your evil religion if it is at 59 and you don't have some big guns!

Other than the rare promotion to empower a unit based off of the counter (which I think is rather weak considering what you have to go through to get it), can you explain why it is ever in anyones interest to push the counter up?

Stigmata will efect every unit built in the city with the AV shrine, so you can put it to good use if it happens to be a decent production city.

All of the civs left in the game were evil, and yet they all quickly hated me for destroying the world

Yeah, I think this modifier might be a little high. Try to get them to convert to your religion before too late.

 

[loki1232]

Personally I feel that the counter getting high enough should just start forcing civs to convert to the order or the AV and join the war.

 

[Caradoc]

Perhaps the forces of Good could work toward their own version of the Final Days, for instance a Rapture. Along the way, there could be prophets and righteous beings set loose as the Armageddon clock swings toward the good. That would give Evil something to sweat about.

It would also be interesting if as the clock moved forward, greater pressure was put on the Neutrals to take sides.

 

[Calavente]

Personally I feel that the counter getting high enough should just start forcing civs to convert to the order or the AV and join the war.

I would hate to lose powerfully upgraded heroes when the AC becomes too high, just because I had been forced to change religion.

 

[onedreamer]

Whole numbers actually what he meant i think heh (the set of 0, 1, 2, 3, etc.)
though natural numbers would be what he described (i.e. positive integers from 1 onwards), but given that the AC counter starts at 0, you need to include that.

It's the usual mess created by anglosaxon people when it comes to Mathematics or measures. In fact, "whole" and "integer" are synonims, integer being the one originating from Latin. In italian, and I assume the same for Portuguese/Brazilian or any other non anglosaxon language, there are only Integer and Natural numbers, no need for a third, unclear definition. Funniest thing, whole number actually it is used both with and without 0, to add a bit more of confusion where there shouldn't be any (a.k.a.: Mathematics).

 

[onedreamer]

Other than the rare promotion to empower a unit based off of the counter (which I think is rather weak considering what you have to go through to get it), can you explain why it is ever in anyones interest to push the counter up?

It is good for Infernals and for Sheaim, which are the two civs in the story that want to destroy Erebus. For the other civs the AC rising is in general bad, that's because as pointed out already, being evil doesn't necessarily mean wanting self destruction.

 

[it-ogo]

In game terms "good" and "evil" are not perfectly defined. Corrlelation with the world destruction\salvation is not obvious. Then "you treat your peple well" point in diplomacy is different from "you are good". So what in that besides the original sin of the civ? The more rigorous ideology is needed IMO.

Maybe we can use D&D-like alignment system (good-evil, lawful-chaotic) with much more dependence on the events. Includind treating people well-badly, starting wars, razing cities, breaking relations, changing religion and civics(chaotic) and long stability (lawful) and many-many random events...

 

[Enthralled]

It is good for Infernals and for Sheaim, which are the two civs in the story that want to destroy Erebus. For the other civs the AC rising is in general bad, that's because as pointed out already, being evil doesn't necessarily mean wanting self destruction.

I keep reading this but I guess I do not understand the reason behind it.

I was playing as the Sheaim and I could not figure out any specific benefit I got from raising the counter. Am I overlooking some building or mechanic that helps when the counter gets high?

I honestly think the issue with the counter could be helped if the units spawned by it were not controlled by the barbarians. I think they should spawn next to the civ with the lowest contribution to the AC, the civ with the highest contribution would be last on their list of people to attack. So not allies, or even as friendly to the Veil as the Infernals, but still the chance of getting hit first if you were the one pushing the counter up should be greatly reduced. This would also give everyone else (especially Good civs) and incentive to push the counter down.

Similarly I think it would make sense if units marked from the prophecy were unable to be recruited into the Harbinger’s army. This would give you an incentive to build this wonder and crank out units from it.

I guess I am thinking about a multiplayer game where someone was trying to push the counter up. If I was a Good civ why would I even bother to try and stop them? The bad affects focus on the evil civs first leaving me in peace to finish my altar or whatever.

Even if nothing is changed I can still see myself pushing the AC high just for the fun of it. I love it as a concept and I love how the game world changes so drastically as you keep pushing it higher. Mechanically it seems to be a stupid choice to make, but for shear enjoyment it definitely delivers.

 

[Chip56]

I was playing as the Sheaim and I could not figure out any specific benefit I got from raising the counter. Am I overlooking some building or mechanic that helps when the counter gets high?

You have a higher chance to get units out of your portals.
Also the maximum allowed is raised.