Prophecy of Ragnorak

[Kael]

I love a game mechanic conversation that veers off into ancient mythology.

Jaredbb many units can have the prohecy mark. If 10 living units are built with the mark, all 10 will raise the counter when built and lower it when they die.

 

[Celeborn]

*Warning*

Any thread posted in by the poster known as Celeborn is likely to have -some- reference to mythology or fantasy lore if it is at all remotely possible for it to do so. You have been warned.

*Warning*

On a more on-topic note. I like the idea of Good (Perhaps Neutral as well) civs getting the demon-slaying promotion, it would make sense... But then should evil not get something extra as well?

*Ponders*

 

[jimi12]

Alternately, the death of "Good" Prohpecy Mark unit could raise the Armageddon Counter, but only if they're killed by demons or units from an evil civ?

what would make a good player want to build it then? they dont have anything to gain other than they just have to be extra careful with their units. i think it should go down for every unit the good civ builds and then go back up if that unit dies. maybe a neutral civ can instead get unholy and holy bonuses since they dont care which one they kill.

 

[MrUnderhill]

what would make a good player want to build it then? they dont have anything to gain other than they just have to be extra careful with their units. i think it should go down for every unit the good civ builds and then go back up if that unit dies. maybe a neutral civ can instead get unholy and holy bonuses since they dont care which one they kill.

The +1 from priests, maybe?
Seriously, though, I agree with you. Good civs shouldn't have to raise the AC by building the prophecy.
-1 upon construction, +1 on death seems fair.

 

[Shadius]

i think it should go down for every unit the good civ builds and then go back up if that unit dies. maybe a neutral civ can instead get unholy and holy bonuses since they dont care which one they kill.

The problem with that it'll only increase the chances of the Armageddon Counter barely rising if you play a good or neutral civ. I dunno about everyone else, but the AC only ever seems to go above 20 if I WANT it to. Ideally, I think, The Prophecy should raise the AC no matter what - but some recompense should be given to non-evil/non-veil civs so that it isn't stricly a pain in the arse to them. Either that, or only allow it to be built by evil or Veil civs.

 

[MrUnderhill]

Okay, what about randomizing the chance of getting the Prophecy Mark for good civs?
That would slow the effect without causing a stockpile of walking, talking AC points.

 

[Kael]

Whats the advantage of having a good version of the prophecy?

 

[Ringtailed]

I don't think having the Prophecy of Ragnarok lowering the AC for good civs is a good idea from a gameplay perspective. It's already hard enough to raise the AC given all the methods available to lower it(razing veil cities, purging the veil from your own cities, sanctifying city ruins, killing hyborem, corlindale's peace ability). In the games I play against the AI, the AC doesn't ever get very high unless I intentionally raise it.

 

[Gamestation]

I think I would just be satisfied if good/neutral civs simply are not allowed to build the prophecy. Barring all other balance reasons, it is just annoying seeing the thing in the top two build option slots just because it is "recommended".

 

[jimi12]

I dont think its so easy to lower the AC. i played a game where AV and Infernal were made on another continent and the counter got to 50 before i could even go over to start fighting them. I think it would be a really interesting dynamic to have a wonder that has different effects depending on your alignment

 

[kenken244]

well first off since this isnt just a history the prophecy of ragnarock might be a prophecy of saving the world in one of erebuses thousands of historys made by players or it may be a evil one.

also, if there was a prophecy to the end of the worl in a civ thats devoted to keepinghte world good then it might actually motivate troops to try to stop it

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It might also be interesting if the Elegy of the Sheaim and the Hallowing of the Elohim's were tied to alignment; if Einon Logos could be corrupted to serve the forces of hell, what hope is there for the rest of us?

 

[Darque]

Would it be possible that the Prophecy is "given" free to the first civ that learns Philosphy? This could force the prophecy to be built and raise the AP. As for the benefits of the prophecy, I think it is fine as it is. There is no need to have different benefits for different alignments.

I also like the idea though that the prophecy marker gives a holy/unholy bonus based on alignment. I also think when a good marked unit dies the AP goes up, while an evil marked unit lowers the AP when it dies. This would definately promote hunting of marked units.

 

[jaredbb]

I just noticed in the wiki that desroying the POR lowers the AC by 5, but there is no AC increase when it is built. Is this the case or was the info overlooked?

Everything else is balanced +/- for effecting the AC, so I'm thinking this should be, also.

 

[MrUnderhill]

Would it be possible that the Prophecy is "given" free to the first civ that learns Philosphy? This could force the prophecy to be built and raise the AP.

What if a civ wanted Philosophy to continue the tech tree, but doesn't want the Prophecy? Maybe now that AC changes are attributed to each civ, we could give it to the biggest contributer once the counter hits 10; after all, that's when the "flavor" prophecy comes up.

 

[Bitwise]

I think it's pretty clear that the Prophecy doesn't cause the end of the world to come, it just predicts it. When will the end times start? Shortly after the prophecy is made, of course. Saying that the Prophecy of Ragnarok causes the end to come is like saying the weather man causes the rain to come.

Evil civs don't benefit from the Prophecy, they benefit from the chaos that the Prophecy foretells.

 

[lorgen]

Loki's a barrel of mischief and unpleasantness. Chaotic, perhaps, but not evil in the strictest sense. Pretty much every one of the Norse gods has their unpleasant or cruel sides, anyhow.

As for the difference between Ragnarok and the Armageddon; well, I think a lot of people kinda misinterpret those two Apocalypses. Both of them don't really herald the end of the world - just a lot of death and unpleasantness before new hope finally springs (in the form of the divine forces being victorious for the Christians and Baldr's ressurection for the Norse). But anyways...

The way I think of Prophecy Mark is that it's a sign that the unit is part of some kind of a prophecy that ends up with him/her/it contributing to the end of the world. I don't see any reason why this couldn't be the other way around - having units that are born under some prophecy that they would help stop the end of the world.

The problem here, though, is that while good civs will dogpile you if you rush up the Armageddon Counter (or at least, I believe they will in 0.21), good civs won't lose anything from spawning cheap units just to keep the counter down.

Somehow I am apalled by your ignorance, but sice you are a belgian, I`ll let it pass.

But I suggest that you read up a bit on Loke`s children (easy to find on wikipedia). And even if Loke was mainly a trickster, he eventually turned to "the dark side". And his children Hel (goddess of hell), Midgardsormen (Wyrm of middle-earth) and fenris (the wolf) joined the fight eagerly. And yes, you have "good and evil" in Norrøn mythology (someone said it didn`t exist). The part of Æsene (aesir) were the good guys, and Jotnene (basically the trolls) were the bad ones. Loke was a half-breed....

 

[Seont]

Somehow I am apalled by your ignorance, but sice you are a belgian, I`ll let it pass.

you are going to have to explain to me what his being belgian has to do with anything? i'm assuming you are trying to imply that your being norwegian gives you some kind of superior knowledge on the subject than the rest of us. Short of you being an Odinist, or one of the other still practiced religions dedicated to or derived from the old norse beliefs, or maybe a historian specializing in the norse, you are on par with the rest of us(and if you are refering to the wiki, i'm doubting you are a historian).

But I suggest that you read up a bit on Loke`s children (easy to find on wikipedia). And even if Loke was mainly a trickster, he eventually turned to "the dark side". And his children Hel (goddess of hell), Midgardsormen (Wyrm of middle-earth) and fenris (the wolf) joined the fight eagerly.

been there done that, there are other versions than the wiki. And while the goddess of hel, it wasn't hell, its those unlucky or cowardly who die outside of battle. infact, in one story she was so evil, she was even willing to let balder come back to life, and apparantly wept for him.

-edit- well, maybe not wept -edit-

She wanted to kill odin and his kin, is that evil, or is it revenge for what they did to her, her brothers and her father?

And yes, you have "good and evil" in Norrøn mythology (someone said it didn`t exist).

that was me. i stand by it.

The part of Æsene (aesir) were the good guys, and Jotnene (basically the trolls) were the bad ones. Loke was a half-breed....

A number of the gods were half or quater juton(giant), in the various versions, vidar, son of the giantess grid for example, a gal who helped thor in some stories no less. The good guys weren't that good, and the bad guys pale in comparison to any true representation of evil.

Regardless, I agree to disagree, i just couldn't let certain comments on your part stand unaddressed.

 

[Mesix]

I don't think it is necessary to have different effects for the Prophecy of Ragnorak. It fortells of the time of the Armegeddon. Whether the war is won by the forces of good or darkness is up to the civs who fight the war. Just because a good civ builds the wonder should not decrease the AC.

Building the Prophecy of Ragnorak should accelerate the counter no matter who builds it. Afterall, what good is a prophecy if its inception prevents the very thing that it fortells. I don't think that any part of the prophecy should lower the counter in any way. The units should raise the counter when built and not go back down when the marked units are killed...afterall, the end is coming and they have fortold it. Let the Armegeddon come, our warriors will be ready!

Perhaps to make it more interesting, the Prophecy of Ragnarok wonder could have an additional effect of allowing its civ to build a special hero. There could be two hero units (one good, one evil and perhaps a third neutral) that are unlocked when the wonder is built. The living units woud all raise the counter when built and the hero that comes along would help the civ to bring the Prophecy to the conclusion that they desire.

edit: Better still, the prophecy could unlock a hero that is defined by the state religion of its builder. This would add both flavor and strategy to the mod and make the Prophecy of Ragnorak more desirable for any player (accept an agnostic one, but then why would they care about a silly thing like a prophecy anyway?).

 

[Shadius]

Somehow I am apalled by your ignorance, but sice you are a belgian, I`ll let it pass.

But I suggest that you read up a bit on Loke`s children (easy to find on wikipedia). And even if Loke was mainly a trickster, he eventually turned to "the dark side". And his children Hel (goddess of hell), Midgardsormen (Wyrm of middle-earth) and fenris (the wolf) joined the fight eagerly. And yes, you have "good and evil" in Norrøn mythology (someone said it didn`t exist). The part of Æsene (aesir) were the good guys, and Jotnene (basically the trolls) were the bad ones. Loke was a half-breed....

It rather depends on what you think of as "evil", I guess. Personally, I think nothing short of true Hyboremesqueness can really be called such. I'm not an expert, but he always seemed to me like a pretty morally ambivalent figure. He is a "bad guy", sure, and not the type you'd want to invite over for tea, but how does that make him evil? And how do his children have anything to do with this? I wouldn't think of any of them as evil in the strictest sense, either, but even if they were... If your son becomes a serial-killing sociopath, does that automatically make you one as well?

I also find it quite funny that you call me ignorant for a statement that is mainly to interpretation, anyhow. Plus; you suggest looking him up on Wikipedia when said site describes Loki as very much non-evil as well.

Also something to keep in mind is that, unlike most of the religions we know today, polytheisms of old weren't quite so stagnant. People's interpretations of things changed over the centuries - heck, the Norse gods can be considered an evolution of much earlier Germanic and Celtic deities (upon which, interestingly, much of the FFH mythos is based).

But yes. The Prophecy...

I dunno about giving civs a Hero. It'd make everyone rush for the Prophecy, most likely, since everybody loves a good hero. Plus, making two/three/five new heroes all with their own models and backstories might be a bit much to brighten up this mechanic.