I would argue that jungles are hard not because it takes time to get to their clearing, but because their yields suck, its slow to move through them, and cutting down jungle takes forever in worker time.
Proposal: Add a ranged Slinger unit before Archer
- Thread starter pineappledan
- Start date
I would argue that jungles are hard not because it takes time to get to their clearing, but because their yields suck, its slow to move through them, and cutting down jungle takes forever in worker time.
Closed Sky
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2021
- Messages
- 72
So if it's not affecting difficulty, let's not move jungle clearing.
So jungle starts are under-powered in general?
pineappledan
Deity
It’s already faster to get to clearing for jungle starts, imo, because the thing you are clearing for is plantations, which are on the same tech, rather than having to get mining too. Connecting a jungle sugar takes 3 tech while connecting a forest sugar takes 4.
That said, I believe some map scripts (Communitas and Milae's) do put down jungle mining and quarry resources. In that case, jungle clearing being a 2nd tier tech makes for a very slow start indeed. You need 6 techs to connect a jungle amber. And before you say those are non-standard settings so screw 'em, Communitas is packaged with VP by default.
On a Firaxis map, moving jungle clearing forward doesn’t change that much, except you could get a head start on clearing jungle before you have unlocked plantations.
That said, I believe some map scripts (Communitas and Milae's) do put down jungle mining and quarry resources. In that case, jungle clearing being a 2nd tier tech makes for a very slow start indeed. You need 6 techs to connect a jungle amber. And before you say those are non-standard settings so screw 'em, Communitas is packaged with VP by default.
On a Firaxis map, moving jungle clearing forward doesn’t change that much, except you could get a head start on clearing jungle before you have unlocked plantations.
jungle is also made even weaker in communitas/communitu, where it is changed to 3 food.
The reason this was changed was that many in the community felt jungle starts artificially Raised the difficulty of the game from what they had set in the options. I think the majority of contributors would take issue with the idea that lowering difficulty back to what the player had asked for is somehow a bad thing.
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I think it’s a more difficult start. Not night and day but like a +.3-.5 increase in difficulty
So it's a quite significant balance issue. Maybe just boosting yields from jungle could make it better.
It's not, starts in general vary extremely in power, and that's part of the fun of the game.
I wouldn't say "significant". I mean there are worst starts, for example if I get no 3food tiles in my starting capital, I consider that a much bigger issue. I wrote a post about starts a while ago, have to see if I can find it.
If people want to tune jungles I can get behind it, but its not needing a major renovation or anything. Honestly if the number of worker turns to clear jungle was lowered to forest level that would be plenty.
Imbalance is fun? That's just your opinion, but I think majority prefer a balanced game. We are in "General Balance", mate. The whole reason for this subforum is to reduce imbalance.
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The problem with this is that there are a huge number of thing that make starts better than others. Jungles can make them worse but it is less than plenty of other things. The ultimate extension of this would be full balanced starts were all lux were equal, every capital has one 3f and three 2f/1p titles near it. And I don't think anyone is suggesting that level of balance.
Jungle is a bit annoying as it slows down lux, both from later tech and having to cut them down but they are also pretty good later on with various science bonuses. I generally don't bother cutting down jungles at all outside of lux.
Variation is fun
Sure, hence different civilizations. It'd be great if it was both balanced and varied.
bahamut19
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2020
- Messages
- 113
Spearman and Pikeman exist for this very reason. Use them to protect your archers from mounted melee.
A great 4x is about rock, paper, scissors mechanics, not about making preferred units become rock, paper, and scissors.
Any discussion about rebalancing units should be about every unit throughout the game, how they interact with each other, and allowing for both strengths and reasonable counters for every unit.
Spears do not stop knights. In order to have pikeman, you have to go down the south side of the tree. Again, that's the problem, without the c bow in your arsenal its nigh impossible to go north side of the tree against competitive AIs. Once the knights come out, you will get steamrolled (that sometimes still happens with c bows but they at least give you a chance to hold on until you get into medieval yourself).
So any solution that removes a c bow esque unit from the north side of the tree is a no-go. The current compromise is the new cbow on currency, that is a tech that is still accessible to the north side and south side of the tree, and so may do the job.
I think a change like this would be a great way to make early warfare more balanced and dynamic. The main issue I have had with early warfare is that it is overly reliant on melee and siege units; ranged units never feel like a good option offensively. Splitting Archers and Comp bows into three units not only solves the problem of archers being incredibly weak in late ancient, but also comp bows being weak just a few techs after they're unlocked, and makes both units feel better offensively.
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pineappledan
Deity
I have added this proposal to my tweaks mod. People can try the Slinger out there
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/pineappledan-tweaks-for-vp.668932/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/pineappledan-tweaks-for-vp.668932/
pineappledan
Deity
I've only had 1 game so far with the Slinger. I didn't get into any wars with anyone; actually, I was entirely by myself on an island. I did get to try the Slinger out against barbarians though.
They're ok. They're not terrific; they do only slightly more than half the damage a warrior does against an encamped brute, hitting for between 17 and 22 damage. In other words, they're doing their job nicely. I don't feel like they are always in danger if they at least have high HP, so I don't feel like I need to escort them in that super-early game, but I also don't feel like they are a replacement for warriors. having a slinger and a warrior in tandem works really well, because you can hit if your warrior is healthy, and then you can pelt the barbs with a slinger to keep them from healing while your own warrior heals back up to finish them off.
They're ok. They're not terrific; they do only slightly more than half the damage a warrior does against an encamped brute, hitting for between 17 and 22 damage. In other words, they're doing their job nicely. I don't feel like they are always in danger if they at least have high HP, so I don't feel like I need to escort them in that super-early game, but I also don't feel like they are a replacement for warriors. having a slinger and a warrior in tandem works really well, because you can hit if your warrior is healthy, and then you can pelt the barbs with a slinger to keep them from healing while your own warrior heals back up to finish them off.
pineappledan
Deity
moved to Math for now. I kinda like it there because it ties Latifundia into Rome's tech path better.
