Proposal workshop: unit stacking ideas

Sounds great bouncing units into the water :rolleyes:
yes valid concern -- the current "bounce" mechanism would have to be changed to reliably move land units to land and water units to water.

Even then, this could result in mass chaos, or it could not; I find it difficult to imagine precisely how often this will come up. As it stands, the AI won't know it can stack units at all, if we were to just flip the switch to enable it and nothing else -- when I've enabled these kinds of mods in the past, AI still behaves as though its all 1UPT, does not take advantage of ability to stack for combat purposes, only movement. (Its also been a long time since I last tried one, could be different now)
 
I think AI would be difficult to handle the "forming army" system well. In civ6, corp/army means slightly higher strength and higher production cost. It would be more simple to just make late units cost higher and have more HP.

The most efficient way to prevent traffic jam is reducing the units we need to build and maintain. Making units die easily with AOE or allow 2 units per turn just make things worse. We need to build even more, and higher CTD risk for more calculation.
 
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Lategame wars are already a slog. We don't need to increase HP further and take forever to kill one unit.
 
The idea would be that an army is treated as two units occupying a single tile. So an entire force of units occupies fewer tiles and doesn’t make as much of a doom carpet. If you are plinking an army for small damage, you can take solace in the fact you are kind of plinking 2 units.
 
New stacking idea, based on assumption that 1UPT for combat is sacred to civ 5, but not necessarily 1UPT universally:

multiple UPT are allowed on some tiles: roads, forts, citadels, towns, cities with barracks(or era appropriate military building). Stacking limit for these tiles = era number; all other plots remain 1UPT.

1UPT maintained for all combat with following ruleset:
  • only one unit per turn can engage in any combat-related action in any given plot.
    • Eg. 3 units are stacked on a road tile, enemy attacks that tile on turn 100, defender is selected by TBD criteria: that defender is the only unit eligible for combat in that plot until start of next turn (depending on turn order this could be 100 or 101), unless it's destroyed or somehow pushed out. Attackers are similarly locked in as the combat unit for the plot they attack from, until start of next turn (if they do not move out after attack)
  • once a combat unit is selected for given plot on given turn, no other unit can perform any action in that plot, ie cannot attack, defend, heal, fortify, etc.
    • Stacked units are not immediately pushed out with combat but cannot end turn stacked in any plot where combat has occurred that turn; ie. once combat occurs all stacked units have to clear out when next able to move
  • only one unit can heal per turn per plot
  • unit cannot stack into a plot unless it has sufficient movement to move out again that same turn.
  • If defender is destroyed by an attack into the defended plot, all stacked units hostile to the attacker are destroyed as well, even if full hp
  • units stacked into a plot where combat occurs, but that are not the combat unit themselves, receive -5 hp for every combat event in their plot if above 50% hp.
  • siege units and bombers apply damage equally to all hostile units in plot, not just the selected combat unit
 
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The idea would be that an army is treated as two units occupying a single tile. So an entire force of units occupies fewer tiles and doesn’t make as much of a doom carpet. If you are plinking an army for small damage, you can take solace in the fact you are kind of plinking 2 units.
If you really want to go with the armies concept how about:

Two adjacent units with full HP can combine their XP together into one unit.

That way you get less units which are more powerful, but it's difficult to abuse because XP is already hard to "buy"

Existing promotions would remain and any duplicate promotions would be given XP credit to use however you want.
 
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If you really want to go with the armies concept how about:

2 units of full HP that are adjacent to each other can combine their XP together into one unit.

That way you get less units which are more powerful but it's difficult to abuse because XP is already hard to "buy"

Their promotions would be kept, except duplicate promotions would be given XP credit to use however you want.

I think something like this would be necessary for the sake of AI decision making. If it's always better to have an army vs 2 separate units, the AI analysis becomes much simpler than if it's a more nuanced thing
 
New stacking idea, based on assumption that 1UPT for combat is sacred to civ 5, but not necessarily 1UPT universally:

multiple UPT are allowed on some tiles: roads, forts, citadels, towns, cities with barracks(or era appropriate military building). Stacking limit for these tiles = era number; all other plots remain 1UPT.

1UPT maintained for all combat with following ruleset:
  • only one unit per turn can engage in any combat-related action in any given plot.
    • Eg. 3 units are stacked on a road tile, enemy attacks that tile on turn 100, defender is selected by TBD criteria: that defender is the only unit eligible for combat in that plot until start of next turn (depending on turn order this could be 100 or 101), unless it's destroyed or somehow pushed out. Attackers are similarly locked in as the combat unit for the plot they attack from, until start of next turn (if they do not move out after attack)
  • once a combat unit is selected for given plot on given turn, no other unit can perform any action in that plot, ie cannot attack, defend, heal, fortify, etc.
    • Stacked units are not immediately pushed out with combat but cannot end turn stacked in any plot where combat has occurred that turn; ie. once combat occurs all stacked units have to clear out when next able to move
  • only one unit can heal per turn per plot
  • unit cannot stack into a plot unless it has sufficient movement to move out again that same turn.
  • If defender is destroyed by an attack into the defended plot, all stacked units hostile to the attacker are destroyed as well, even if full hp
  • units stacked into a plot where combat occurs, but that are not the combat unit themselves, receive -5 hp for every combat event in their plot if above 50% hp.
  • siege units and bombers apply damage equally to all hostile units in plot, not just the selected combat unit
I think this is way too complicated, and even vet players would easily lose track of which unit attacked which to optimize their actions. Not to mention displaying all those stacked info would be nightmare.

I'm not really in favor of unit stacking if it comes with those complicated rules. More AoE and range for focusing fire and killing things faster to push through the choke point is the better and simpler method which both favoring good tactical decision (focus fire/AoE placement/offensive - movement sequencing all in 1 turn...) and causing more damage to both sides thus speeding up the war effort, reducing the need to repeat the same micromanagement/action again and again.
 
even vet players would easily lose track of which unit attacked which to optimize their actions
Yes my write up reads as a little complex, but I don't think it would be all that complicated from player perspective. Player will not really have to keep track of anything for the most part -- it would only come up when two players occupy the same plot: if player A attacks/defends in the plot, when player B turn starts turn it will only have option to move out. Optimizing an attack comes down to just picking which unit you wanna use in the attack -- this decision will be much like choosing the first attacker in the old stacks of doom days. On defense game will select automatically, nothing for player to worry about.

The problem with late game crowding is probably gonna take either big change; or a bundle of small changes. This would be a potential big change on target to the underlying problem, and in the spirit of past civ franchise features.

The army idea, though another I am potentially in favor of, strikes me as only a small change, and will not significantly fix the crowding problem on its own. Still like it though
 
I think you vastly underestimate how complicate your suggestion can be, if players try to optimize their actions.
Unit stacking, in these cases where the result is less than the sum, is inherently bad, and players would try their best not to do so if possible (which is part of the optimization), thus not much would change in term of decision making, where they still have to find a way to make full use of all of their units (ex, the 1000 hit and run attacks per turn), but with the extra huddle of having to remember to not accidently stack units. Nobody would willingly stack their units and take extra losses of units/actions just so the map looks less crowded, and this change would do nothing to the actual gameplay experience.

Again, late game congestion isn't a hard issue to solve, as nuke can practically take care of it in a single turn. We're only stuck because nuke gives massive penalty, thus removing the penalty, downgrading the destructive power to balance and spread the effect out to other units would pretty much give us what we need, and none of it would even give any extra rule for players to remember.
 
We're only stuck because nuke gives massive penalty, thus removing the penalty, downgrading the destructive power to balance and spread the effect out to other units would pretty much give us what we need, and none of it would even give any extra rule for players to remember.
I think it's moreso that people don't want constant nukes in their game about geopolitics -- it's a relatively rare occurrence IRL, most want the game to reflect this too. Its not obvious to me what you mean by spreading out the effect to other units, are we thinking we'd have a wider AoE area, but less damage per unit affected? I find the current function of nukes to be rather satisfying gameplay, gut reaction here is reluctance, though perhaps there's some use for this angle.

On that note, the wholesale destruction of entire units is a relatively rare occurrence as well. While I agree it could solve some congestion problems if we increase it's frequency, I don't think it would feel very satisfying to just have masses of units regularly being AoE one-shotted. At some point it's like why have conventional forces at all?

Re: the concept of stacking as a solution to congestion, I posit that the core problem of congestion is unit movement, not combat. Sure the combat bogs down when all plots become full -- is it this stalemate that people view as the problem? Imo its the tedium of the geometric puzzle that moving units around becomes, the waiting in interim tiles for paths to clear etc. Two evenly matched forces should become stalemated, this aspect makes sense to me -- the movement logjams not so much.

Some limited stacking for transit purposes only should be of little consequence to the existing gameplay paradigm. My proposed model may miss the mark but would encourage more thought on what can be done here. I'm not even necessarily a proponent of deviating from 1upt, but it strikes me that some kind of stacking would directly target the movement aspect of late game congestion, whereas other solutions floated thus far operate moreso in the periphery of the problem identified. Once movement is solved I'm not sure there's anything left to fix, really

they still have to find a way to make full use of all of their units (ex, the 1000 hit and run attacks per turn), but with the extra huddle of having to remember to not accidently stack units.

I think this is a bit of an overstatement about what would change -- the same series of decisions about having hit-and-run attacks before static attacks would occur, but player would have more choice about where to move the attack-and-move units afterwards. Similar to now, if you conduct the turn-ending attack too soon, your attack and move units cannot do their work in that plot -- but this is how things currently work, its no change. That said, it would be possible to focus hit-and-run attacks even more than currently, by keeping more units stacked closer to where the combat occurs, and this may be undesirable. Or it may not: being able to focus more attack and move attacks would be a mechanism to unstagnate frozen battle lines, and eliminate units entirely, freeing up even more space on the map. I don't see this stuff as a complexity issue so much as just balance-shifting, attack-and-move will be even more powerful than currently.

Ultimately my point is a 1UPT regime for combat, MUPT regime for movement may be both achievable and appropriate as solution to congestion effects
 
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I think it's moreso that people don't want constant nukes in their game about geopolitics -- it's a relatively rare occurrence IRL, most want the game to reflect this too

On that note, the wholesale destruction of entire units is a relatively rare occurrence as well. While I agree it could solve some congestion problems if we increase it's frequency, I don't think it would feel very satisfying to just have masses of units regularly being AoE one-shotted. At some point it's like why have conventional forces at all?
Nuke is the only AoE one-shot that deserves to be limited. What I'm talking about is the increase in AoE among common units that doesn't change much during small skirmishes but give extra punch at stacked location/choke point which bogs down the war. Also it's easier to buff up/tone down specific units than making changes to the whole tactical AI for them to use the new stacking system correctly.

Re: the concept of stacking as a solution to congestion, I posit that the core problem of congestion is unit movement, not combat.

I listed increasing movement as one among the solutions for the congestion, but given the AI has limited way to make use of better movement due to sight, I opted to not focus on that part. Instead of increasing movements (to siege units, for example), I opted to increasing range to allow low mobility units to participate in the fight, both helping at breaking the choke point and reducing wasted turns/actions moving around for no reason.

Imho, unit stacking in combat is such a new system that ensures a lot of changes for the AI as well as for human players to optimize, while the effect is uncertain. Unit stacking for movement only though (in case of simply moving through horde of non-hostile units) would be a nice QoL, but we'd still need other solution to deal with the bogged down frontline.
 
Nuke is the only AoE one-shot that deserves to be limited. What I'm talking about is the increase in AoE among common units that doesn't change much during small skirmishes but give extra punch at stacked location/choke point which bogs down the war. Also it's easier to buff up/tone down specific units than making changes to the whole tactical AI for them to use the new stacking system correctly.
this could work -- how to make it thematically satisfying tho? need more particulars, unless I missed them elsewhere. There are probably some common military phenomenon that are under-represented in VP, that support this idea of wider-scale destruction. However, ultimately its not fun to be on receiving side of unit going from full HP to death in one turn, so we wouldn't want to increase this kind of result; and if we're not killing units entirely but requiring them to withdraw, aren't we amplifying the undesireable effect of congestion? ie there will be more tricky maneuvers to organize in the correct order?

I listed increasing movement as one among the solutions for the congestion, but given the AI has limited way to make use of better movement due to sight, I opted to not focus on that part. Instead of increasing movements (to siege units, for example), I opted to increasing range to allow low mobility units to participate in the fight, both helping at breaking the choke point and reducing wasted turns/actions moving around for no reason.
the problem with increasing movement is that too much diminishes the tactical aspects of combat and terrain variances: high unit movements can just ignore terrain, or redirect attacks elsewhere regardless of how enemy tries to predict intentions and contain

In MB+ mod I have naval units moving at double move rate during non-combat turns via a promotion that "falls off" when they enter combat, and then move at normal rate til they spend 1-turn combat-free when the promo gets re-added. If we are talking about more movement, I'd prefer something dynamic like this. It does work well to alleviate movement congestion through naval choke-points...
 
this could work -- how to make it thematically satisfying tho? need more particulars, unless I missed them elsewhere. There are probably some common military phenomenon that are under-represented in VP, that support this idea of wider-scale destruction. However, ultimately its not fun to be on receiving side of unit going from full HP to death in one turn, so we wouldn't want to increase this kind of result; and if we're not killing units entirely but requiring them to withdraw, aren't we amplifying the undesireable effect of congestion? ie there will be more tricky maneuvers to organize in the correct order?
You're thinking in term of human players trying to conserve as much force as possible (which causes a lot of issue like over leveled units or bogged down frontline/refuse to advance in order to save units). Causing more damage to both sides is also one of the goal, so that war weariness stack up faster and war can end sooner (and reducing the effect of player-centric issues above). Even withdrawing away from the choke point can also take care of the issue temporarily, and should be a strategic decision to stay and trade blows or take the fight elsewhere.

Also considering common units have counters unlike nuke, if you have enough AA you can deal more dmg to enemy bombers, if you have cover you can tank more of those siege attack, missiles are one-use, etc... It amplified tactical decision, as it matters more which unit you need to focus in which order (which is the good part gameplay-wise), but only for a few turns (so you don't feel burned out with the same repeated decision making - which is the bad part). The main goal is to make each of your decisions have a much stronger impact to keep the exciting part of gameplay, clearing the congestion is the welcomed side effect.
 
I think it's moreso that people don't want constant nukes in their game about geopolitics -- it's a relatively rare occurrence IRL, most want the game to reflect this too. Its not obvious to me what you mean by spreading out the effect to other units, are we thinking we'd have a wider AoE area, but less damage per unit affected? I find the current function of nukes to be rather satisfying gameplay, gut reaction here is reluctance, though perhaps there's some use for this angle.
We already have guided missiles. If they need to scale better into late game, maybe they can become cheaper with a tech to be the non-nuclear option to clearing space.
Also, move Splash Damage I/II to Field I on siege weapons.

New stacking idea, ...
I think this idea is good, and better than the armies approach, but veers a little too far into the "realism" department, adding sensible but compounding rules that don't really add to the solution. Also it doesn't address auras like Medic on stacked units or interception zones.

multiple UPT are allowed on some tiles: roads, forts, citadels, towns, cities with barracks(or era appropriate military building). Stacking limit for these tiles = era number; all other plots remain 1UPT.
I think this could just be: "Stacking limit of 3 military units." No fuss around which special tiles count (did you mean to omit villages as well? Kasbah, Encampments?), no changing over the course of eras. This means it also helps when mobilizing armies through difficult terrain outside your borders and away from roads. If gating it behind tech is still desirable, having just one or two techs that go 1 => 3 => 6 or something seems cleaner.
once a combat unit is selected for given plot on given turn, no other unit can perform any action in that plot, ie cannot attack, defend, heal, fortify, etc.
  • Stacked units are not immediately pushed out with combat but cannot end turn stacked in any plot where combat has occurred that turn; ie. once combat occurs all stacked units have to clear out when next able to move
I think this could lead to a soft lock if you corner a stack against the ocean or a mountain range.

For the rest of the stacking rules, I think it can be summed up as:
All of these individual things themselves seem like reasonable approaches to disincentivizing stacks in combat, I don't think you need them all. If the stack can only attack 1/turn, why does it matter that the attack can only be the previous turn's defender? If the stack blows up when one of them dies, why do they take -5 damage, but only down to 50%?

I think simplicity is key here.
  • Attacking from a plot prevents all other owned units in that plot (and units that move into it later) from attacking for the rest of the turn, and prevents healing (unless March) and fortifying. Yes, you can stack with allied units and still attack. I think this is a necessary evil to keeping the rules simple, and prevents many of the other headaches when trying to work alongside allies in combat.
  • When attacking, the "target" is the highest CS defender (break ties by: highest HP, then highest cost, then random). This means that you could shield archers with spears (but see below).
  • When the highest CS in a tile takes damage, that damage is spread to every other enemy unit in the tile (including civilians? 🤔). This means that stacking basically doubles or triples your incoming damage. This feels intuitive, and should prevent most abuse cases from the previous point where you try to shield a dying archer with a melee unit.
  • When a unit participates in an interception, all other units in that stack have their number of interceptions reduced by 1. I think it already picks the "best" intercepter, so that part is already handled for.

And that's it. I don't think you need slower healing as part of the stacking rules, I don't think you need special rules for who can attack based on how they were hit in the previous turn, and you don't need to force moving out of the stack.

Spoiler If you really wanted more rules... :

  • I think limiting the attacker to only the highest CS, as a mirror of how the defender is chosen, could also be an okay way of simplifying who can attack, and prevent situations where you rotate between high-health melees in a tile while the other one heals. You lose the ability to hit with an archer while stacked with a spear, but perhaps that's a better situation.
  • Limit healing to only the highest CS damaged unit. I don't think you need to, but if you wanted to this would be a clean rule.
  • If you wanted to give bombers and siege the upside of dealing full damage to stacks, then you could reduce the spread damage from 100% => 50%.
 
I tried to parse this thread but had a hard time.
I would just note that as far as the congress goes "Proposals to change the one unit per tile (1UPT) rule ... are specifically considered out of scope."
 
Proposals to change the one unit per tile (1UPT) rule ... are specifically considered out of scope.
good reminder -- that would leave us with the armies idea open then... and possibly a few other creative solutions

can anything be done here with the "cargo" function? ie whereas a few units can currently load other units into them, can this be leveraged to somehow relieve congestion in a manner that hybridizes stacking and armies? (but that does not technically break the 1UPT rule) The way the tables are configured suggests it would be possible to apply this functionality much more broadly than where we currently have missles loading into ships and thats about it. eg. if units of same type were allowed to load one another as "cargo", they could pass through otherwise occupied plots, and possibly affect combat locally as well. There is a field in units table that may be of interest here, not sure what it does exactly:

<CargoCombat>0</CargoCombat>
 
I generally don't have these issues with Huge maps. But those probably aren't used often by most players.

However one point that is evident is the idea of "fighting along side" an ally. This is practically a non-existent concept. But the thing is if you are the aggressor, you probably don't want the Ally in the way stealing the city for annexation. But if you are in a defensive situation you would definitely want this. However currently it's nearly impossible to have any type of meaningful assistance from an ally. Unless they are literally more powerful than you and doing all the protecting.
 
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