Protectionism vs. Progressive Stuff

[AppleDumplingHead]

The whole purpose of discussion is to try to understand the reasoning behind people's opinions. If your reasoning is demeaning to people that hold certain types of low wage jobs, and you recognize it as such to the point you don't want to share it, then perhaps your opinion is not a good one to hold.

It's an excellent opinion to hold.

grr. you almost made me say mean things.

I'm not demeaning anyone.

 

[Farm Boy]

Mean things? Like what Apple? The people I call friends are disproportionately bar-backs, el-ed, daycare, admin assistants, weed dealers, cops, plumbers, field hands, some old farmers that are left, etc. Many of them are dumb as a bag of hammers. But they work hard even when they're unemployed or on disability, they contribute to their communities, and they're good and loving people that build communities that function, if a bit pettily at times.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

I've always lived far below my means. I've never sat and collected any kind of welfare or other government assistance. As far as I'm concerned, if a person is collecting state aid or disability, he'd better be paralyzed below the neck, have a literal hole through his head, or be functionally ********. A 30 hour a week, minimum wage job is not meant to support a family. Get a second 20-30 hour a week job. No one told him/her to have kids, and irresponsibility to provide for ones you have is abuse to his/her family. Too many people perform a bare minimum, figure they're done and someone else should pay the rest. It's pathetic work ethic. Lowering and lowering and lowering the bar, to the point of expectation, no less entitlement to anything more than the base minimum they can afford is horrendous abuse of the system.

State aid should be for people who really need help, not for people who do a little and say they're done. That's horsehockey, that's unacceptable. Do people get away with it? All the freakin time. Should we make it worse, lowering the bar some more, giving everyone another $5 an hour? Not. on. your. life. I will rail against that every chance I get. Hell, if I was in charge, people would be working on city and state park land details cleaning up trash 10 hours a week to get food stamps.

Get off your asses, America. You're fat and embarrassing.

How's that.

 

[Farm Boy]

Alright, so how many hours a week is required to be meritorious enough to be fed, warm, non-isolated, and educated in this paradigm? What kinds of work are acceptable? Mother of two and dad just skipped town, how many hours per week of part time jobs does she need to not be abusing her children with her presence? Or father, that does happen too, albeit less in this "sex as a chewtoy" culture.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

Alright, so how many hours a week is required to be meritorious enough to be fed, warm, non-isolated, and educated in this paradigm? What kinds of work are acceptable? Mother of two and dad just skipped town, how many hours per week of part time jobs does she need to not be abusing her children with her presence? Or father, that does happen too, albeit less in this "sex as a chewtoy" culture.

Whatever it takes to pay for the standard of living she's set for herself. Move into subsidized housing for $50 bucks a month, shop at Aldis instead of the Cellular Store or Bed Bath and Beyond, stop making extra expenses, take advantage of free schooling, make friends in the community to share responsibility of child care, get involved in church or other secular programs for privately supported clothing and food packages. It takes time, but people dig themselves out every day by not sitting on their butts, complaining life isn't fair.

Ffs, I'm literally frightened, if we see another depression, people will just start eating each other so they can still have new shoes, smart phones and fancy rims on their cars. Get priorities straight, do what you have to do.

 

[onejayhawk]

That would be were the value is. It takes a special type of misanthrope to care about the digital numbers and slips of paper instead of what they enable, which should be happiness. I mean, it's not like offshoring pollution, resource depletion, and misery exchange for selective wealth/power and selective hopelessness is exactly noble. Well, wait, that word...

More to the point, currency is just currency. You have to be producing exporting something of real value continuously. If you aren't making real things, yet are powerful and rich, what you are exporting is force.

Paraphrasing slightly, "Force has real value."

That is a very interesting economic assertion. I would love to see a model that employs it.

The whole purpose of discussion is to try to understand the reasoning behind people's opinions. If your reasoning is demeaning to people that hold certain types of low wage jobs, and you recognize it as such to the point you don't want to share it, then perhaps your opinion is not a good one to hold.

That nicely sums up my objections to the Clinton message. I thought you supported her.

J

 

[Farm Boy]

Yes Apple. These are things we all do on this side of the economic pie. Aldi's is amazeballs. Ours is a zoo on Wednesday, when they get in their produce for the week. But we don't have accessible housing out here for that price, that I've found, for one. It's probably around, and I haven't been broke enough for long enough to qualify. I had parents to move back in with while working my part-times. Lucky me. Free schooling? Where the hell are you living that people can afford non-public schooling? It's still not free, btw. If you can't afford the school supplies you have to go ask for them from the churches. We're forever running out of backpacks, for the record. The only reason, though, that we have public schooling and whatever those dream rents are and free breakfast at school and SNAP and all that is people, not sitting around on their butts, complained that life isn't fair enough.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

I was referring to free college for the adult in the house so he/she can learn a new skill.

I was on "that side of the economic pie". I lived far below my means my entire 20s and 30s, paying child support, socking away 10, 20 bucks every chance I got. I am not exceptional in that regard. I lived with less, never had new things, kept my financial obligations low. Always tried to stay busy. Laid off one day, feet to the pavement the next, sometimes through temp labor companies so I always had income.

 

[metalhead]

These people you speak of, who work part time for minimum wage and take handouts to live above their means and buy new cell phones and rims for their cars - are these people you know personally?

 

[Farm Boy]

Ok, I'm fuzzy on that then. How do I get free college? I've been paying on my and my wife's schooling for over 10 now, not anywhere close to done though we've made more than double-time progress. The usefulness of the degree lasted about 3 years, personally. It'll probably wind up costing for between 20 and 30. It started at well over 50% of my takehome and is immune from bankruptcy, unlike debt is for other mealy-mouthed whiny-baby capitalists who, apparently, need training wheels.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

These people you speak of, who work part time for minimum wage and take handouts to live above their means and buy new cell phones and rims for their cars - are these people you know personally?

Acquaintances and friends of acquaintances. People I've worked with, people in bars.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

Ok, I'm fuzzy on that then. How do I get free college? I've been paying on my and my wife's schooling for over 10 now, not anywhere close to done though we've made more than double-time progress. The usefulness of the degree lasted about 3 years, personally. It'll probably wind up costing for between 20 and 30. It started at well over 50% of my takehome and is immune from bankruptcy, unlike debt is for other mealy-mouthed whiny-baby capitalists who, apparently, need training wheels.

Not trying to be snarky, but search on the internet. The US gov't has had programs for years for free schooling, and that's the best program in the world, because every single person benefits from a better educated neighbor.

As a matter of fact, policies by the Obama administration have made it even easier for anyone, their uncle and their cousins to get it.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/types/grants-scholarships

There are hundreds of scholarships that go unused every year.

 

[metalhead]

Acquaintances and friends of acquaintances. People I've worked with, people in bars.

What makes you qualified to make the assessments you've made about their financial situations? Do they talk about it, about how much and where they work, what they get from the government, that sort of thing?

 

[onejayhawk]

What makes you qualified to make the assessments you've made about their financial situations? Do they talk about it, about how much and where they work, what they get from the government, that sort of thing?

You quoted what makes him qualified at this level of discussion.

J

 

[Farm Boy]

Yea....no. That's not how that will work out. Even with all those grants and loans, low-income students admitted to university in IL(maybe you live in a land of fat and honey) wind up with significant debt immediately.

Edit: ok, keeping up with your edits - suggesting prospective students fill out the FAFSA is a good idea. I've never met a student who didn't, though I'm sure they exist. I think you may be a bit mislead as to the quantity and nature of the aid and how many people will qualify for it. The loans I am talking about, the ones immune from bankruptcy and tied to my parents' housing, were acquired under said programs and application.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

Yea....no. That's not how that will work out. Even with all those grants and loans, low-income students admitted to university in IL(maybe you live in a land of fat and honey) wind up with significant debt immediately.

I'm in Il, my daughter applied for and received full funding to a technical school, and sadly, her mom and she made the decision for her to not finish high school. She's doing better now, though. I'm a grandpa, she's a mechanic.

 

[metalhead]

You quoted what makes him qualified at this level of discussion.

J

I don't believe merely being acquainted with someone would give me enough information about them to assume anything about their financial situation unless they talked about it, so I quoted his response in an attempt to suss out exactly what about these acquaintances made him conclude they were living above their means on the government's dime. I mean, I know these things happen, but assuming a couple of acquaintances here and there are doing this, I'm not sure how one extrapolates that into some broad social trend, where our country is one where low wage workers spend their time looking for government handouts to buy rims.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

What makes you qualified to make the assessments you've made about their financial situations? Do they talk about it, about how much and where they work, what they get from the government, that sort of thing?

That's becoming a more and more absurd demand for justification. I'm fine with answering your pointed questions, mostly, but I know these people exist, you know these people exist. Pretending they're mythological is not productive.

 

[onejayhawk]

I don't believe merely being acquainted with someone would give me enough information about them to assume anything about their financial situation unless they talked about it, so I quoted his response in an attempt to suss out exactly what about these acquaintances made him conclude they were living above their means on the government's dime. I mean, I know these things happen, but assuming a couple of acquaintances here and there are doing this, I'm not sure how one extrapolates that into some broad social trend, where out country is one where low wage workers spend their time looking for government handouts to buy rims.

There will come a point when I find that reasonable. We have not reached it here. Anecdotal evidence has value.

J

 

[Farm Boy]

I'm in Il, my daughter applied for and received full funding to a technical school, and sadly, her mom and she made the decision for her to not finish high school. She's doing better now, though. I'm a grandpa, she's a mechanic.

I'm glad you all are doing ok. Does anyone have an update on the John Deere + GM petition to start removing the ability of people to have their products serviced out of dealers(starting with the concept of software ownership)?