Protective Trait

[Brad55]

So what kind of strategies have players come up with when it comes to this trait? Personally, I miss the old days when Qin Shi Huang had the financial trait to complement his industrious one. However, rather than cop out and change the XML back to his old trait pairing, I'm wondering how other players have adapted their strategies around this trait.

Obviously, playing as the Chinese would sort of demand that you try and get those Cho-Ko-Nu's online early (best paired with Barracks/Theocaracy to churn out Drill III units). But I've been thinking more about utilizing the Longbowmen and cranking them out with City Garrison III. That would mean a +100% city defense unit (pretty intimidating to most medieval attacks). But then again, that would rely heavily on the computer or your opponent to batter themselves against your city walls (unlikely to happen when pillaging would be far more lucrative in both a human player's eyes as well as the computer's).

Forts offer another alternative to posting your defensive units in cities as they now permit City Garrison Promotions to work in them. But that would require a lot of them to completely cover your borders (way too many in mind).

So what's your take on this trait?

 

[NaZdReG]

from single to multi player.. i've really taken a liking to protective trait. not only does it make a basic archer able to keep up with a cr1+ axemen when defending a city.. but ckn's get really nasty with it.

if you beeline to metal casting and run an engineer, combined with great wall or pyramids (specialist strat is a good way to go for non financial but industrius civ like this) then pyramids plus forge.. use the engineer to get machinery super early.. ckn's wont have an effective counter for quite a while.. added bonus they can easily secure a city against counter attack while you reinforce

NaZ

 

[DaviddesJ]

Protective is just lousy (except, to some extent, for China). I'd suggest that you play it when you want a handicap. (As opposed to Financial, which people traditionally chose when they want an easier game.)

At Deity level, it's useful to have purely defensive promotions. Or maybe in the early game against raging barbs. Other than that, they are pretty useless for the human player.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

I find that land grabbing is more effective with Protective because your defenses are a little stiffer. I tend to go for archery sooner with a protective civ...

 

[MikeEdward]

Protective trait? I did not know this trait even existed in Civ 4? Is this new to Warlords?

 

[JoeBlade]

I don't think Protective's as awful as some players make it out to be, though I agree it's not among the top traits (speaking from a pure SP point of view, mind)

Here are a few things I've noticed in my admittedly limited number of games with the trait:
- Drill 2+ archers make ok fogbusters even against axemen, esp. with Guerilla or somesuch on top. Less of a need to beeline for BW/IW in other words, though one would probably still want those for early wars.
- Even mere Drill 1 + City Garrisson 1 make for quite decent defenders, which allows for more efficient "pushing the border" strategies. Let newly conquered or founded cities build defenders to protect said border while having more developed cities focus solely on their specialisation. Production sites can focus on attackers only for instance, which is nice.
- Barracks can be skipped fairly safely in cities that won't ever be building attackers for the same reason. Not much use later game though, as barracks are dirt cheap anyhow.
- Drill 2+ crossbowmen can be pretty nasty when attained early enough, as are any of the gunpowder units. Drill gives an edge in pretty much all circumstances other than fighting vastly superior units.

Still, I wich Firaxis had granted another added bonus to the Protective trait instead of the walls/castles one. I still think those improvements are pretty useless as they can be torn away by siege units in no time. Moreover, I for one want to be able to counter attackers effectively rather than be tucked away in a defensive position while said attackers chip away at the defenses and pillage everything in sight...

 

[DaviddesJ]

Still, I wich Firaxis had granted another added bonus to the Protective trait instead of the walls/castles one. I still think those improvements are pretty useless as they can be torn away by siege units in no time. Moreover, I for one want to be able to counter attackers effectively rather than be tucked away in a defensive position while said attackers chip away at the defenses and pillage everything in sight...

Yeah, these are the key points. If Protective gave Combat 1 to archery units instead of City Garrison 1 (so it were useful other than holed up in cities where you generally don't want to be), and it gave a bonus for construction of the Great Wall (which seems logical enough), it would start to look pretty decent.

 

[yavoon]

I think walls/castles are ok improvements. I build them, not saying they're awesome. but remember even if they could be catapulted away the AI isnt really about laying great strategic siege to ur cities.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I think walls/castles are ok improvements. I build them, not saying they're awesome. but remember even if they could be catapulted away the AI isnt really about laying great strategic siege to ur cities.

The AI isn't really about attacking my cities, at all. Other than Deity level, I'm not about to let the AI get close enough to attack them, which means it's gotten to pillage my improvements. I guess, very late in the game, I have enough workers to rebuild them quickly. But it's still not the situation I want, so I'm more likely to be taking out his SOD with counterattacks before it gets anywhere near to where walls or castles might help me. And, at a level high enough that it might get close to my cities, it's going to have siege engines.

 

[yavoon]

The AI isn't really about attacking my cities, at all. Other than Deity level, I'm not about to let the AI get close enough to attack them, which means it's gotten to pillage my improvements. I guess, very late in the game, I have enough workers to rebuild them quickly. But it's still not the situation I want, so I'm more likely to be taking out his SOD with counterattacks before it gets anywhere near to where walls or castles might help me. And, at a level high enough that it might get close to my cities, it's going to have siege engines.

I play on emperor and I get attacked. I get boats moved past my borders. usually they pillage some, but not endlessly. they do attack ur city. I've been playing aggressive AI lately, so I can be in 2-4 wars simultaneously. but even discarding silly things like that, the AI will still run its mounted units past u. I've had toku actually galley transport 2 crossbows and 4 horse archers behind my lines before.

mostly I build walls in newly conquered cities. infact the game I played some of this afternoon I had walls + 2 axe's vs 2 horse archers and a catapult because they'd ran past my SOD. and at about the same time I had a mace against an axe and a wall, he just pillaged till I got more units down. but if I didnt have a wall he'd probably have taken my city.

I agree w/ u though, I love it when I'm able to counter their "free units." or attack the city that has their army in it before it leaves.

 

[Andraeianus I]

The protective trait is rather strong to my opinion. It is feasible to build archers without barracks in the early game and let them gain more experience by fighting barbarians. The extra first shot makes them suited for an attacking role, too. Something what matters even more in the gunpowder era when you do a lot of attacking with gunpowder units (riflemen, musketmen, grenadiers).

Also in the early game you can attack with archers. Even when they have only 1% chance of winning they do more damage than you would expect because of their first strikes.

 

[shivute]

Protective is very good against raging barbs and is also extremely useful when playing multiplayer. There are stronger available though.
They are an excellent trait for an AI opponent to have. For a human player, I would class Protective alongside Creative - very useful at the start of the game, but for a human playing against AIs, quickly becomes next to useless.
I would imagine it is a good trait to have though, if you are rubbish at building units and making war and just want to build?

 

[snipafist]

I find it's a helpful, but not overpowered trait. Between lots of first strikes and castle walls, it's pretty darn hard to pry a protective civ out from their defenses unless you really go after them. You can't go after a protective civ half-arsed. Foolish players insist that it's useless, as most players should be on the offensive all game. But even in offensive wars, there are defensive elements. You need someone to hold on to newly-taken cities that are going to be counterattacked. You need someone to guard your artillery and shock attack units. Protective-augmented units do this job better than normal units, and it makes a good advance from a protective civ difficult to shift.

 

[DaviddesJ]

You need someone to hold on to newly-taken cities that are going to be counterattacked.

Not against the computer, you don't. MP is an entirely different thing.

 

[Mind_worm]

Protective is very good against raging barbs and is also extremely useful when playing multiplayer. There are stronger available though.
They are an excellent trait for an AI opponent to have. For a human player, I would class Protective alongside Creative - very useful at the start of the game, but for a human playing against AIs, quickly becomes next to useless.
I would imagine it is a good trait to have though, if you are rubbish at building units and making war and just want to build?

ah, this is an excellent description of protective, I think you nailed it exactly.

 

[Skirmisher]

The only time I can think of it beeing useful was when playing against Monty.

Since walls and castles are no good against gunpowder units, it would make sense that bunkers and nuclear shelters should also be half priced.

Another suggestion would be to give castles of protective civs one plus trade route.

 

[MikeEdward]

Sorry, but is protective trait part of Warlords, or a mod edition?

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Charismatic, Imperialistic, and Protective are the three new Warlords traits.

As for the merits of the trait itself, I don't think it gets enough credit. Many have expounded its virtues already, but I'd like to point out that Drill 1 now unlocks other skills like Combat 1, meaning you can give your archers shock or cover right out of the gate with a barracks. And Pinch to gunpowder units. I'm not sure that it grants access to Medic(which would make sense, in a way) or if Drill 2 unlocks Formation and what not, but in that sense, it functions similiarly to Aggressive, especially with gunpowder units and crossbows. Though I don't think the trait fits either Chinese leader at all(for that matter, Expansive fits Mao even worse!), it does have a more offensive bent with them and the Cho-ko-nu.
And certainly it allows you to have strong defenders. An unpromoted archer is free experience, but a heavily promoted one is a monstrous defender and decent for mop-up on offense with Drill promotions to keep it fresh...

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Also one nice thing about Drill is that it gives you better odds in a battle without decreasing the Experience (because experience is based on Strength Ratios, Drill is the Only thing that affects the winning of the battle without affecting strength)

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

After playing two games with Protective, I think its ok, a lot better then I thought it was. BUT my view is skewed by the fact that the two leaders I used have some synergy with Protective.

1. Qin and the Cho's. Im a big fan of crossbowmen as it is. Add collateral damage and those defense promotions on a not-too-expensive unit and it was gravy. And since he's industrious, you want metal casting asap, which is one tech before machinery. I made a huge force of Cho's and took down two civs. By the end of fighting, my Cho's were filled with promotions, but this gave me another idea...

2. Churchill. By the time I got redcoats, I had my military city setup with heroic epic, westpoint, military academy, barracks, and three military specialists. 13 xp with charismatic is enough for four promotions plus the two free protective promotions. Complete domination ensued.

I still dont think protective is as good as charismatic or most of the other traits, but it definately has some uses. I guess my main beef is the lack of peacetime usefullness, since castles go obsolete and cant be made after awhile, while its military usefullness isnt as effective as aggresive or charismatic by itself (though pairs with either of these quite well).