Protective Underestimated

and even a few flood plains will stifle a city into low size when I'm playing.
Floodplains actually yield a net positive food gain when compared to Grassland.

FP = +1:food:, -0.4:food: due to unhealthiness, for a net gain of .6:food: after you've hit your health cap. Before you hit your cap, you get the full +1 :food:

The key to profiting from floodplains is to NOT be afraid of growing past your healthiness cap. Just keep adding pop until all floodplains are being worked.

The only drawback is that it takes longer for workers to improve FP tiles.
 
Are you going to discuss Combat vs Drill, or should I not bother responding to your numbers because you're absenting yourself?

I'm not sure there's going to be any useful debate on it at this point.

No matter what, the CR player has to sit and wait while his CR units heal.

The damaged units need to heal. That doesn't translate to "sitting and waiting".

Anyway, now that you're clear on the point, is there any discussion or do you agree?

I don't agree with it the way you phrased it, but I agree with what I assume was your intent. Pro doesn't actually affect the power rating at all, which is how you described it ("inflates the Power graph, reduces undesired AI wars"), but if you use it to build Walls/Castles in all/most of your cities, yes, it can have that effect.

The implication wasn't so much to increase my authority, but to get you to question your own assumptions.

"So I can say I speak from experience that these strategies compare favorably to just about anything else". You don't consider that trying to increase your authority? How else should I interpret that?

What is comes down to is this: most if not all of us have played dozens if not hundreds of games of, say, Phi, where we specifically work to leverage Phi. How about Fin... same thing if not more: dozens or hundreds. Compare that to Pro. One or two? And, what about the Walls/Castles strats. Zero?

What makes you think that's true? If you read the strategy forum (which I know you do), you'll find people that are constantly trying new strategies. How often do you see someone talking about how powerfully they leveraged Pro? Are you going to tell me that's simply because these people, who are constantly trying new things, just happened to only play "one or two" Pro games?

When I see some active demonstrations of people using a powerful Pro strategy, then I'll be willing to concede the point. But with the lack of such demonstrations, I'm going to have to assume that's not simply because there haven't been any attempts.

This is not a pissing contest and I could care less if I've done something more than you. It has relevance in where we're each coming from. Fair enough?

I wasn't trying to imply that it was a pissing contest. Nor would I expect that from you, as you're a pretty level-headed debater.

edit: Oh, I should point out (and someone did mention it in this thread), one particular strategy that is good with Pro is beelining Machinery as the Chinese. The Drill line is good for the Cho-Ko-Nus since they aren't eligible for the CR promotions, and you are going to want to attack cities with them. So getting a free step along the Drill line is valuable. I don't believe, however, that requiring a particular Civ and particular UU makes a trait good in general. But I won't deny it's effective here.

Bh
 
I'm not sure there's going to be any useful debate on it at this point.
Given the overall tone of your post, I agree. :sad:

What makes you think that's true? If you read the strategy forum (which I know you do), you'll find people that are constantly trying new strategies. How often do you see someone talking about how powerfully they leveraged Pro? Are you going to tell me that's simply because these people, who are constantly trying new things, just happened to only play "one or two" Pro games?
Yes.

That's why I agree with the OP that "Protective is underestimated".

When I see some active demonstrations of people using a powerful Pro strategy, then I'll be willing to concede the point. But with the lack of such demonstrations, I'm going to have to assume that's not simply because there haven't been any attempts.
I'll consider taking on this challenge. I'll see what I can come up with.

I wasn't trying to imply that it was a pissing contest. Nor would I expect that from you, as you're a pretty level-headed debater.
Thanks. I try, anyway.

Wodan
 
Floodplains actually yield a net positive food gain when compared to Grassland.

FP = +1:food:, -0.4:food: due to unhealthiness, for a net gain of .6:food: after you've hit your health cap. Before you hit your cap, you get the full +1 :food:

The key to profiting from floodplains is to NOT be afraid of growing past your healthiness cap. Just keep adding pop until all floodplains are being worked.

The only drawback is that it takes longer for workers to improve FP tiles.

I don't know how we got to Floodplains, but the negatie thing is not only the slightly longer time for workers (this also applies to tundra, and desert AFAIK), but the fact that they provide :yuck: for a -0.4:food: This means that every floodplain not worked will cost 0.4 :food:, whilst every worked floodplain will yield 0.6 :food: and 1 :commerce: (atleast without improvements). Now, earlygame, both :health: and :) cap is low, so having lots of floodplain means that some of them are going to be unworked. Also, having a city that can (atleast pre-machinery) only focus on food and commerce can be a crucial mistake earlygame, especially if it is your capital.
 
I remember having a discussion with somebody about settling their game start right in the middle of something like 12 floodplains. I said something like, you know, it's probably be better to move over to the side... you'll get some production in your capitol, and you can put a second city to work the other half of that floodplain bonanza. For some reason they thought that was a crazy idea.

Wodan
 
Hi, I'm Kettle. Nice to meet you Pot. :rolleyes:
You have to agree I've made a concerted effort to both be objective as well as nonconfrontational.

I think you're underestimating the degree to which some people try different strategies.
There is no "try". There is only do.

Try implies sampling. And, sampling does not result in recognition of more esoteric strategies, let alone perfect those strategies to see how powerful they truly can be.

There's nothing wrong with the concept of having a trait in CIV that doesn't smack you over the head with making it work for you, like Fin. Heck, the strenth of Phi wasn't immediately recognized, nor all the different strategies you could do with it. Pro has taken longer, that's all. Like I said the other day, most people don't even realize that walls and castles inflate the power graph, and that the AI uses the power graph to make some decisions. Thus, how could they even have "tried" a strategy that utilizes those things to work for you?

Anyway, I've started on the article. I'll try to remember to come back here and post a reminder when I'm done.

Wodan
 
You have to agree I've made a concerted effort to both be objective as well as nonconfrontational.

I would have, before the snarky comment that started this particular line of discussion.

There is no "try". There is only do.

Oh, please, let's not quote cheesy Star Wars lines. Of course there is "try", because that's how you experiment. You "try" different things. Sometimes they work. Sometimes they don't.

Try implies sampling. And, sampling does not result in recognition of more esoteric strategies, let alone perfect those strategies to see how powerful they truly can be.

There is no "sampling" implied by the word "try". Sampling is not a synonym of the word "try". Saying that someone is "sampling" different strategies does not have the same meaning as saying that someone is "trying" different strategies.

There's nothing wrong with the concept of having a trait in CIV that doesn't smack you over the head with making it work for you, like Fin.

And there's nothing wrong with the concept of having a trait that is less useful than the majority of other traits either. It can be useful as a balance tool to offset powerful UBs/UUs (Charlemagne is a good example of that).

Pro has taken longer, that's all.

That's one interpretation. Another would be that Pro simply isn't good, which is why there hasn't been strategies revolving around it.

Like I said the other day, most people don't even realize that walls and castles inflate the power graph, and that the AI uses the power graph to make some decisions.

The people who don't realize that aren't the ones who are constantly trying new strategies. Those people tend to have a good grasp of the nuances of the game, which certainly includes the fact that Walls/Castles increase the power rating.

edit: BTW, since we are talking about what most people do and do not know... Are you aware that the power rating bonus from having both a Wall and Castle in a city is equal to the power rating from having a single Longbow?

Anyway, I've started on the article. I'll try to remember to come back here and post a reminder when I'm done.

I'm sure I'll catch it regardless.

Bh
 
About the flood plains issue: Until they're all worked, the excess ones slow growth. While worked ones are better than grasslands even if we grow past the health cap, too many imply wasted potential: Sharing a dozen of them between 2+ cities so both benefit from the additional food without running into massive health problems is better than settling smack dab in the middle of them.

***

About the traits: I find economic traits easier to leverage even when you plan to war a lot. Better units, a larger army, better production capacity... I'll gladly take these over another promotion or two.
When not planning in advance to war at a specific age, I consider Gandhi to be one of the best warmongers in the game - SPI gets us in and out of wartime civics at the drop of a hat, and PHI is a very powerful trait for a warmongering economy (Frederick and Asoka are also strong as ORG will make conquests less of a burden on the economy). Yes, it's possible to simply accept a lousy economy and make do with unit bonuses but I find it a lot harder (not sure whether this applies to Immortal+; I'm not yet qualified to comment on high-level play).

If we plan to make war mostly when history hands us a golden opportunity, a strong UU dwarfs warmonger traits. Cyrus' rush isn't that much scarier than Darius', Huyana Capac is a monster even with 2 builder traits, Romans don't exactly rely on their Great Generals to dominate classical warfare and Cho-Ko-Nu would be the single most ridiculous unit in the game even without Protective.
 
As an experiment, I started a game with my standard settings, chose the Holy Roman Empire, and built nothing but Archery Units.

Early war against Shaka, I was holding my own and it was significantly more difficult for him to retake any city I took. If I had bothered to build even one spear for my archer/longbow stacks, I would have been fairly invincible, since immunity to First Strikes from the mounted units was the only thing taking down my Longbowmen.

If you prioritize Feudalism as a protective Civ, you can easily have Garrison I/Drill 3 Longbows out of the chute. Whether this is helpful or not most likely depends on difficulty level.

Advantages of Protective for me:
Able to build an effective fighting force without having to hook up Iron/Copper. Depending on map settings, that can be a lifesaver.

Disadvantages -- you really do have to warmonger with it. I don't believe Protective to be any worse than Aggressive, push come to shove.

Granted, I don't have hard math to support the opinion, but I did actually try a game just to test this whole thing. :)
 
I'm trying my first game as Charlemagne and the protective trait has probably saved me several wars early because i have close borders with Izzy, Brennus, and Justantine. That allowed me to build a bunch of wonders, but in retrospect I didn't build enough cities for the way this game is playing out.
 
I use the Protective/Organized trait either with the Confederacy mod or with the Civ Customizer mod.
More for the fun of it than the practicality (which may or may not exsist)-
i build on hills and upgrade along guerilla path-
Then beeline for gunpowder- with the intent of upgrading those guerillaII longbowmen to guerillaII rifleman-
good invaders or strong defenders either way.
 
Bhruic:

There's absolutely no point to doing that. What difficulty level? What game speed? What map size? How many opponents do you have? There are way too many variables to be considered to make that question useful.

You could simply state your settings to quantify your point. I play with mostly default settings, so I didn't feel like they needed much clarification. There aren't that many variables. You're just dodging the question.

No, every trait does not need to be "abused". You'll still get significant benefits from Fin, even if you don't mass spam early cottages. You'll still get significant benefits from Phi, even if you don't rush Libraries.

I beg to differ. You only get significant benefits from Fin if you make an effort to prioritize it. If you played a Fin-NonPhi Civ the same way you played a Phi Civ, you would not get benefits as significant as if you made an effort to play the Civ to its strengths.

It could be that the style of Protective simply runs counter to your usual instinct and style of play, but that doesn't make it weak - just weak when you're the one playing.

What? Why would you waste a promotion by giving a Pikeman Shock? There's no way a str 6 unit is going to be able to stand up to a str 8 +50% unit by getting +25%.

Really? Not even if that Shock Pikeman is up on a hill fortified in a city with Walls and a Castle? Perhaps "no way" doesn't mean what you think it means.

It seems counterintuitive to promote a Pikeman this way, but this is actually beneficial in an invading stack with limited numbers compared to the enemy, or if you expect this Pikeman to man a smaller stack down the line, either in a captured city or otherwise. Generally, Pikemen don't need a lot of help taking down Knights and such on defense, especially on carefully chosen terrain - it's a foregone conclusion, especially for the weaker second wave knights (first wave knights taken out with Formation Pikemen).

They do need all the help they can get against Macemen, however. You don't use this unit to attack Full-on Macemen, and it's not going to be strongest against Macemen, so it won't be called to defend against them. What it is a useful cleanup unit if you need slightly weakened Macemen to be taken out, and they defend your Formation Pikemen against Macemen in case your own Macemen and Longbows have gone down.

I've had occasion to dismantle stacks this way, so I promote some of my extra Pikemen like this to defend against it - what you do is you keep attacking a Pikeman defended stack with Macemen promoted against its primary stack defenders - Shock Macemen against CR Macemen (and enemy Shock Macemen) then Cover Macemen for LBs. Eventually, the best defenders will come from the Pikemen and you clean them out, then mop the rest up with mounted units.

It's significantly harder to do if you have Shock Pikemen in there with good terrain and Fortify on their side, because it's not fatally vulnerable to either melee or mounted - your chief sortie units in the field.

You mean it could easily be any other era like the ones where Walls/Castles have been obsoleted?

There can be no discussion if you won't keep an open mind. If you take it for granted that Walls and Castles are useless, then there'll be no convincing you regardless of how the game actually plays.

It's certainly not that hard to whip Walls.

It's better if you don't have to. That's a full population point advantage there, maybe more.

None of the arguments from the other side have been convincing, and now they are just getting rehashed.

I don't believe I'm rehashing a prior point. If you don't want to listen, nothing will convince you.

Pro-user: "Play the game this way..."
You: "But it's better if you're Fin and play another way!"

Right...

Ihmemies:

That's actually not true. If you get Castles late Classical or early Medieval, they're a veritable, well, castle.

I've managed to stall an enemy stack for nearly ten turns on a Castled Hill City with nothing but Longbowmen and Pikemen before dismantling the attack stack with a small sortie stack. Lots of hammer and WW gains for me.

That plus the Statue of Zeus practically grinds even a Fin Civ's finances to a halt. You don't need to actually take out a Civ's production centers to render it incapable of producing more units - you just need to jack their WW scores sky-high.
 
Protective is shafted a little by the game mechanics on higher levels as War Weariness simply doesn't affect the AIs as much as it should. From my experience, pillaging is an easier way to wear down an AI than inviting them to wear themselves down on your fortresses if the objective isn't to gain territory.

It is slightly riskier if your military is small though.
 
Ok, was out working for a few days, but back to see this is still going on. I'm going to take a slightly different approach.

Bhruic, you're obviously the champion of "Protective isn't very good" in this thread. There are several vocal proponents of the trait, and their arguments just don't seem to impress you.

Now, these people (myself included) obviously like the trait and think it works well for us. You obviously think it's garbage (or close to it), so, I'm curious... What are we doing wrong that leaves us with what you consider a mistaken impression? Are we not good players? Do we lack a finer understanding of the game that you have? Are we ignorant of the REALLY good strategies that make the types we're advocating with protective seem very lackluster? Are we just playing on too low difficulties? In short, what are we doing wrong, and what should we be doing right to see this the way you do? Do you have any general or particular suggestions for us? Any particular questions that will help you get the information you need to give us such suggestions? Thanks.
 
Iranon:

Pillaging is situation dependent and requires a pillage-stack of significant strength. If you have a stack strong enough to withstand determined assaults on enemy territory, you should simply change it up slightly and take a few cities.

With Protective, any loss of Protective units barring the loss of the Castled city will usually entail a significant loss of units (and thus hammers) for the attacking AI. The WW penalty is harder to quantify, the but the unit advantage is quite obvious. Being virtually impregnable to attack stacks with a fraction of the investment is a strong advantage in any war - and Civ IV games are rarely without them.
 
I've played a few games with Protective leaders, and as far as I'm concerned, the jury's still out.

The most obvious trait to compare with Protective is Aggressive, of course. It would also be valid to compare Protective to Charismatic and Imperialistic, but let me stick to the Aggressive comparison for now, since it is the most "apples to apples" comparison. So, what are we comparing?

  1. Drill + City Garrison (Gunpowder) vs Combat (Gunpowder)
  2. Drill + City Garrison (Archery) vs Combat (Melee)
  3. Cheap Walls and Castles vs Cheap Barracks

OK. For point #1, we have two situational promotions for Protective, versus a single all-purpose promotion for Aggressive. City Garrison has obvious uses, while generally speaking, Combat I is more useful than Drill I. Drill offers advantages over Combat I when fighting with a significant strength advantage (either due to attacking weaker units, or defending with terrain/city bonuses), and when defending against Siege. In most other cases, Combat I has the edge. Due to the BTS changes to the promotion tree, Drill I allows access to most of the "specialty promotions" that originally were only open to Combat I, so I'll ignore that line of argument.

The simple question that you have to ask is: how often do my units fight battles where their advantages come into play? That seems to be the core question. In offensive city assaults, I'd say that Combat I is more useful than Drill I, but not by a lot. It all comes down to those few battles between the initial siege sacrifice, and the final >99% "clean-up" actions. Combat gives a better success rate in that window, while Drill units have a better chance of requiring zero healing after that window.

Also note that there's nothing preventing you from giving Combat upgrades to your Protective gunpowder units. Combat II vs Combat I + Drill I is not a lot of difference, though of course the relative STR of the defending unit matters a lot here.

Another question is whether or not you ever fight battles where you are defending against an AI stack, especially while in a fortress or city. In these situations, Protective is FAR more valuable than Aggressive. Hopefully, this is obvious. Bhuric's argument stems from the assertion that these types of battles are rare, while Protective proponents argue that it's quite possible to manipulate the AI into these types of battles. Fair enough. I'm not really skilled enough to compel the AI into suiciding against my cities, though I'd be happy to see some demonstrations of this strategy.

When Gunpowder finally comes around, I'm leaning towards Protective, though only a little. The ability to both attack AND defend with your bonus promotions makes up for the small difference between Drill I and Combat I.

Point #2: Here, the differences between Aggressive and Protective are more pronounced, because you have to build different types of units to exploit the bonus. If you never build Archery units, then obviously Aggressive is the more valuable trait. If all you want is barbarian defense, then both Aggressive and Protective gives you adequate units for this task.

However, if you spawn without metal, than Aggressive is positively useless, while Protective may very well save your hide while you bunker down and tech to Catapults.

So, in the pre-Gunpowder era, I'd say that Protective is more flexible, but Aggressive gets the edge when you have metal and a close neighbor.

Point #3: Cheap Barracks vs Cheap Walls/Castles. Again, we're talking about a single strong bonus vs two weak bonuses. Barracks is a good, solid building, but if you concentrate on city specialization in the early game, you will probably not need more than 1 or 2 of these. Walls are pretty weak, but they do occasionally come in handy if you're the victim of a sneak attack and need to hold out a few extra turns while you consolidate your army to the front. And, as Wodan has pointed out, walls increase your power rating and help prevent getting attacked in the first place.

Both Castles and Barracks have uses during the mid game (around where Nationalism comes online), and there are good reasons to spam either: Barracks to boost happiness and draft-XP with Nationalism, and Castles to boost trade and espionage. Due to the higher cost of Castles, you are probably going to get more :hammers:-savings from castle spam than barracks spam, but to properly exploit Castles, you need to beeline Engineering, which may not be the optimal tech path for your strategy.

So, here, Aggressive is the more flexible trait, since the cheap barracks don't compel you down any particular technology path.

=========

In summary, I don't know that I really favor one trait over the other, when comparing Aggressive to Protective.

In my games, for example, I like to beeline Archery and build a handful of archers before building my first Settler. Why? Because I don't like gambling on Copper and having to restart my game whenever I don't get it (raging barbarians are a harsh teacher). This strategy blends really well with the Protective trait.

However, I also like to favor aggressive play when my position allows for it. The Aggressive trait comes in very handy here.

I think, when it comes down to it, it really depends on your starting position. If you end up with metal, then Aggressive is the stronger trait. If you end up without, then Protective is the stronger trait. Incidentally, if you end up with Horses but not metal, then I would argue that Charismatic is stronger than either.

Your Mileage May Vary.
 
Small comment:

Past the Industrial Era, Protective is a significantly stronger wartime trait than Aggressive. The Barracks at this point is cheap enough that you should be able to spam it with without or without the Aggressive trait, and for only a small premium in comparison - the difference in overflow from newly-converted production cities is almost negligible - a third of an era-appropriate unit, perhaps.

Also, this is the time, in Normal and larger maps, when nations begin to assemble truly large armies with significant numbers of siege weapons as well as flying collateral damage. En route to your target city, you can either expect to get bombarded a couple times or else have cultural borders so close that strong city garrisons are mandatory. In either case, Protective units are much stronger - they whether collateral bombardment beautifully, which is a boon in both offense and defense.

The main advantage of Combat 1 is the opening up of the associated unit-type promotions anyways, and Drill does that now. Prior to the Gunpowder Eras, Protective play skews more to siege weaponry and Archer defenses, as opposed to infantry major for an Aggressive play.
 
This is a pretty good conversation.

Anyway, Bh is right, is sitiations where base odds are equel or less drill, and most the drill line, gives a very small effect. Its true that if you have an advantage, its beter than the combat line, I love to rush infantry, give them drill, and use them vs riflemen (or less if the advantage is big).
I think its going a little far to say the City Raider line is overrated, esp vs the drill line.
To that end though, Drill+CG is an amazing combination. But we dont want our counrtyside to be killed waiting for the AI to throw itself on us.
I propose this soulution: Forts
Playing FFH with summons everywhere I saw the AI throw itself on forts for no good reason at all, It seems like the AI likes to attack forts on a border even if they could go around. I will playtest this more thourogly later, but Ive seen them throw themselves on forts in FFH and BTS.
Forts count the CG promotion (at least in the documentation) and give another 25% that is uncatapoltable. I propose stratigeic forts as the protective soulution.
Do CR promotions work when attacking forts? I dont think so, but I will playtest and find out.
What does everyone think?
 
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