Protective Underestimated

Defenses are usually irrelevant, at least in single player play. Active defense is almost always preferable to passive defense, and the CG bonuses are useless for active defense.
Agreed.

would you rather have a Drill IV musket, or a CR III Macemen? I'd choose the latter every time, if I'm looking at offense.
I'll choose the former every time, no matter what I'm looking at.

Every promotion you use on the Drill chain is a promotion you're not using in the other chains. The Drill promotions are situationally useful, granted, but that situation isn't one that comes up often.
Drill is useful in every single combat. You're saying combat doesn't come up very often in your games? :eek:

Moreover, a CIII musket vs a Drill IV musket has a 51% chance of victory.
In the open or vs a city? Is one of them fortified?

Even better, a CII + Pinch musket has a 73.2% chance to beat a Drill IV musket (all standing in the open).
What about vs a DIII + Pinch musket? Only fair, don't you think?

Personally, unless I'm ahead in technology, I don't consider the Drill line valuable
There are degrees of being ahead. We can debate about Drill being useful if you're actually way behind, which is one issue. Another is if you're only a little ahead. Drill can make a huge difference in that situation.

and if I'm ahead, promotions are really an afterthought anyway.
So it's a moot point either way in that case.

Wodan
 
I've read some strategy somewhere stating that drill promotions work best if the drill unit has a higher power rating than the opposing unit. So that's how I've been using it. Also I use them to give stacks a better chance against siege weapons.
 
I've read some strategy somewhere stating that drill promotions work best if the drill unit has a higher power rating than the opposing unit. So that's how I've been using it.
That's true. However, that doesn't mean it's useless if you don't.

Also I use them to give stacks a better chance against siege weapons.
You mean to prevent them from counterattacking and nerfing your stack with collateral?

Wodan
 
Drill is useful in every single combat. You're saying combat doesn't come up very often in your games?

That's a narrow interpretation of what I was saying. I'm not saying that Drill is not useful compared to not having any promotions - obviously that'd be a stupid assertion. What I am saying is that Drill is less useful than many other promotions in most cases.

In the open or vs a city? Is one of them fortified?

As stated, all standing in the open.

What about vs a DIII + Pinch musket? Only fair, don't you think?

Sure, CII + Pinch vs DIII + Pinch has a 58.4% chance of winning. Again, with a parity of promotions (3 on both sides), Drill always loses (in turns of win chance) when comparing units of equal base strength.

There are degrees of being ahead. We can debate about Drill being useful if you're actually way behind, which is one issue. Another is if you're only a little ahead. Drill can make a huge difference in that situation.

I'm sure you can come up with situational occassions where the Drill line can come in handy. My point has never been that there aren't any - just that they are rare. Certainly not enough to redeem the Protective trait, imo.

So it's a moot point either way in that case.

I'm not sure what you are refering to by "it". I'm just saying that if you are going up against Longbows with Grenadiers, the Drill promotion is going to save you some damage. But you were almost certain to win anyway, so it's not saving you from death. The net effect may be gaining a turn or two not having to heal, but the relative value of that turn or two isn't very high.

Bh
 
Just curious.. Why do most critics of the protective trait always single out either city garrison or drill, and explain why they are inferior to other traits? Because the reality of the situation is that, protective units don't start with one or the other, they start with drill I and CG I. This means that every unit eligible for the protective benefits not only has the (arguably weak) drill, it also has the very useful city guard.

A city raider macemen on a plains may have a slight advantage versus a protective musketmen upgraded equivalently... But that same musketman, drill upgraded, stuck in a city, will be an very, very powerful defender in virtue of starting out with CG I. Not only is it an *extremely* effective cleanup unit, as has been pointed out several times, it's also a reasonable general combatant, and a very powerful defensive unit - all in virtue of the protective promotions. Not to mention that having drill one leaves it open for a bunch of neat promotions that CR won't.

Bottom line, if you're isolating protectives two upgrades and saying "Well, they aren't that wonderful on their own" you're completely ignoring the VERY significant, in gameplay terms, fact that those upgrades are not on their own, and are paired up. This can't be solved by simply number crunching one of these promotions - versatility is a difficult to quantify, but extremely valuable, asset, and protective units have a good portion of it.

Also, one other thing to consider... Drill opens up a host of good other promotions. CG is an excellent promotion for fortified units. Protective makes it very easy to have extremely diversely upgraded city guards. Frankly, I love this trait, from dozens of emperor games as experience. I can understand it really not fitting most peoples' playstyles, but for a builder at heart like me who likes to squeeze a lot out of a few units, it's tops. I don't get why everyone can't just lay off it and accept that some people use it quite well.
 
Just curious.. Why do most critics of the protective trait always single out either city garrison or drill, and explain why they are inferior to other traits?

If you read what I wrote before, you'll note that I didn't single out either trait. CG can be dismissed simply because, as wodan agreed, it's useless for anything but passive defense. And passive defense rarely happens in single player games (deserved so). Active defense is almost always superior, and CG doesn't help with that at all.

So that takes care of CG. The rest of the argument was referencing Drill. So both of them were covered.

Bottom line, if you're isolating protectives two upgrades and saying "Well, they aren't that wonderful on their own" you're completely ignoring the VERY significant, in gameplay terms, fact that those upgrades are not on their own, and are paired up. This can't be solved by simply number crunching one of these promotions - versatility is a difficult to quantify, but extremely valuable, asset, and protective units have a good portion of it.

You can make a semi-decent argument for Drill being useful in a variety of situations. I'd argue not as useful as other promotions, but let's leave that aside. But there is no argument for CG being useful in a variety of situations. It's only useful in exactly one situation - someone is attacking your city/fort. Since that happens so infrequently (in general), pairing it up with Drill doesn't really increase the advantage significantly.

I don't get why everyone can't just lay off it and accept that some people use it quite well.

I think people would be quite content to lay off it if other people would stop trying to claim it's a good trait. I mean, who started this topic? How did they start it? It didn't get started by the people who find protective underpowered, it was started by someone who believes protective is "underestimated". If you're going to claim it's "underestimated", then you need to be able to back that up. I don't believe that CG I and Drill I really accomplish that.

Bh
 
Yeah those protective civ longbows built with a barracks, vassalage, theocracy and with a city built on a hill are a b**ch to dislodge.

Good luck trying ;)
 
If you read what I wrote before, you'll note that I didn't single out either trait. CG can be dismissed simply because, as wodan agreed, it's useless for anything but passive defense. And passive defense rarely happens in single player games (deserved so). Active defense is almost always superior, and CG doesn't help with that at all.

So that takes care of CG. The rest of the argument was referencing Drill. So both of them were covered.

Well, I'm not Wodan, and I'm not inclined to agree with him on this. Staging points are a *huge* part of advances and defenses in this game. City guard units are vital for using cities as effective staging points. Being able to crank out heavy CG units easily, or even use elements of your combat stack as semi-CG upgraded units, is immensely useful in a very non-passive game. Protective excels at this, since you can either get those heavy CG guys easily, or just use any old unit with CG 1 and a bunch of drill to fill this role.

You can make a semi-decent argument for Drill being useful in a variety of situations. I'd argue not as useful as other promotions, but let's leave that aside. But there is no argument for CG being useful in a variety of situations. It's only useful in exactly one situation - someone is attacking your city/fort. Since that happens so infrequently (in general), pairing it up with Drill doesn't really increase the advantage significantly.

You know, I agree and disagree with you. When I'm not playing protective, I almost never upgrade with drill. When I do play protective, I do so quite frequently. Heavy drill upgrade units in combination with the CG1 make units that are extremely effective at stopping the *very* common stack of siege, and gives one the versatility to target specific units types through the use of pinch/shock/etc. Versatility is important, and bottom line is, protective units have it. The only things they can really specialize in are city defense, mitigating siege, and cleanup (all major parts of warfare), but they can jump into a variety of other roles and do a pretty damned solid job. The fact that I can take my drill IV/CG musketman and use him as a formidable defender as well as a half decent attacker is worth a great deal in my gameplay experience.

I think people would be quite content to lay off it if other people would stop trying to claim it's a good trait. I mean, who started this topic? How did they start it? It didn't get started by the people who find protective underpowered, it was started by someone who believes protective is "underestimated". If you're going to claim it's "underestimated", then you need to be able to back that up. I don't believe that CG I and Drill I really accomplish that.

Bh

Look who started this thread? What, do people see that someone is using protective well and get so offended that someone might be doing that and just have to step in and tell them that it is in fact a sub-par trait? It's not the best trait out there - that's obvious. It is *extremely* well suited to some play styles, which should also be obvious based on how many people seem to like using it. You don't see a half dozen people coming in and griping when someone claims phil is a good trait, because it's obvious some people use it well (I have little to no use for philosophical myself) - but people complain in such a manner for protective.

As for backing it up, what I don't understand is why I need to back up what dozens of games of experience tells me is quite obvious... Protective archery/gunpowder units are very, very versatile, and allow for someone not willing to tailor their game around military to have an effective core to their army which can fill a variety of roles reasonably well. Protective rocks for builder types.
 
Yeah those protective civ longbows built with a barracks, vassalage, theocracy and with a city built on a hill are a b**ch to dislodge.

Good luck trying ;)
The point is that you don't have to try; you can effectively destroy a civ without ever touching its cities.
 
The point is that you don't have to try; you can effectively destroy a civ without ever touching its cities.

The benefit of being able to crank out those CGIII + drill 1 longbows so easily though is that you don't need to create a ton of defenders to keep your cities safe. Instead you can focus on having a counter-pillaging force, because you never had to focus much on building excellent city defenses. It's become completely matter-of-course to build more in the way of cavalry units for enemy interception than in the way of longbowmen with my protective leaders, because I realize the enemy is either A) not going to attack my city, or B) expend a ridiculous amount of resources taking it... While my horse-archer/knight/cavalry hordes are going to eat him alive in my territory. When I'm playing, let's say, Mehmed, I need to put serious effort into making sure my city is safe, because those CGI longbows I'm producing when not all geared up for war just don't do much to deter enemy stacks.
 
Well, I'm not Wodan, and I'm not inclined to agree with him on this. Staging points are a *huge* part of advances and defenses in this game. City guard units are vital for using cities as effective staging points. Being able to crank out heavy CG units easily, or even use elements of your combat stack as semi-CG upgraded units, is immensely useful in a very non-passive game. Protective excels at this, since you can either get those heavy CG guys easily, or just use any old unit with CG 1 and a bunch of drill to fill this role.

Well, obviously I don't really agree. City guards are only vital if someone is actually attacking that city. At which you have to ask, why are you letting someone attack your city? It is much easier, and more cost effective to counter-attack them. And CG doesn't help at all with counter-offense.

The only things they can really specialize in are city defense, mitigating siege, and cleanup (all major parts of warfare), but they can jump into a variety of other roles and do a pretty damned solid job.

When there are a number of units that specialize in various aspects of the game, I don't see the value in having generalists. Sure, it might be nice to have a few, but they'd never be a major component of any army I can imagine. And considering that the straight Combat line leads to a unit more likely to win in battles, it's hard to imagine a significant need for the Drill line, beyond cleanup duty.

Look who started this thread? What, do people see that someone is using protective well and get so offended that someone might be doing that and just have to step in and tell them that it is in fact a sub-par trait? It's not the best trait out there - that's obvious. It is *extremely* well suited to some play styles, which should also be obvious based on how many people seem to like using it. You don't see a half dozen people coming in and griping when someone claims phil is a good trait, because it's obvious some people use it well (I have little to no use for philosophical myself) - but people complain in such a manner for protective.

My point was that if someone starts a thread claiming that protective is underestimated, which is what happens here, suggesting that people "lay off" makes no sense. The whole point of a thread like this is to debate the merits of the trait.

As for backing it up, what I don't understand is why I need to back up what dozens of games of experience tells me is quite obvious... Protective archery/gunpowder units are very, very versatile, and allow for someone not willing to tailor their game around military to have an effective core to their army which can fill a variety of roles reasonably well. Protective rocks for builder types.

You have to back it up if you want anyone else to take your opinion seriously. Anecdotal evidence isn't going to convince anyone. If you're not interested in convincing anyone else, that's fine, no need to provide evidence at all - but what exactly are you doing posting in this thread then? To me, it seems like you are advocating for the protective trait. If so, then something more than your "dozens of games of experience" is necessary to demonstrate that.

Bh
 
The benefit of being able to crank out those CGIII + drill 1 longbows so easily though is that you don't need to create a ton of defenders to keep your cities safe. Instead you can ...
That 'instead' bit is key. "Grr, my cities are invincible" is a very poor argument for protective, because you don't have to lose your cities to be effectively destroyed. "Grr, my cities are invincible, which lets me do this other thing more effectively" is a much better argument, which Krazy did not make.
 
Underlying the "underestimated" line is the "estimation" valuation of Protective.

Lots of people value Protective as the least powerful trait or close to it. Of course, that depends on what it is exactly that you're trying to do. For some posters, opinion is that Protective is actually a handicap - which just isn't true.

Depending.

On its own, Protective certainly doesn't impress. CG1 and Drill1 combined make for a nasty defensive unit, but it doesn't attack anything. Players in SP games like to make their games on attacking enemies, so you can understand how many players would feel that attacking units are more valuable than defending units.

At the crux of the decision is the question: is it better to attack or to defend?

I would say that unless you know how to use passive defense as a leverage for a good game-winning leverage, then you have no business commenting on how good or bad Protective is.

What does that mean? Simply put, it means that there are cases where Protective is better, and there are cases where Aggressive or Industrious is better. Trying to use Aggressive to build monuments is colossally stupid - it's self-explanatory. Likewise, trying to use Drill3 CG1 Pinch Muskets to attack is also pretty weird.

IMX, there are some cases where you can't attack or counter-attack an enemy stack to any useful end whatever you do and whatever other trait you may have. This is especially the case when you're at a disadvantage going up against UUs, Civ traits, or UB advantages, as well as terrain.

It goes without saying that a Drill3 CG1 Pinch Musket is a god on passive defense. The question most higher level players would level is, "How can you use it to win?" Speaking only from my experience, I've use Pro Archers and Pro Gunpowder units together with the cheap Walls (and Castles when possible) in order to present a strong defense on cultural borders when necessary. Strong City defense of this nature is cheaper on hammers especially against the AI, and especially when you can position your defensive units to force the AI onto bad terrain.

Theoretically, you can eschew the defense altogether and instead simply create two offensive stacks and take over the enemy Civ using, say, Industrious Wonder advantage instead of Protective. That's not actually true. Walls with Stone (and even without) on Protective are so cheap that you can effectively spam it in every City if you need to. With even 2 Protective Archers (which you can shift around as necessary), that's such a staunch defense that you can basically allow it to be attacked by a much larger enemy stack and still come out ahead.

Too, moderately promoted All Drill defenses on a city is extremely resistant to siege weaponry and thus to attack stacks. While you can theoretically eliminate the attack stack or recapture the city with a stack of your own, that kind of hammer investment can be used for bigger and better things - like taking enemy cities.

I think Tokugawa's early game demonstrates best how the Protective trait can be used for hammer leveraging. Workers + roads + Swordsmen or Axes to invade neighbors, Protective Archers and Walls to protect early gains from enemy Civs and Barbarians without taking the focus away from your attack stack.

In theory, Protective can be used this way with any civ, but in practice, Protective can only leverage hammer gains when protecting assets under threat. Without an attacking trait or UU to provide a spearhead, it loses much of its luster. Sitting Bull's Protective Trait, for instance, is not as useful as Tokugawa's is.

The winning point for me was the observation that Protective is a monster trait in MP. If you can use it to incredible effect against a smarter opponent than a computer, then certainly it's going to be much more useful against a comp AI? Of course, one can argue that you can bamboozle the AI much more effectively using alternate traits, at which point the problem really isn't the trait itself, but the fact that the AI is a weak opponent in the first place.
 
That 'instead' bit is key. "Grr, my cities are invincible" is a very poor argument for protective, because you don't have to lose your cities to be effectively destroyed. "Grr, my cities are invincible, which lets me do this other thing more effectively" is a much better argument, which Krazy did not make.

Or you could paraphrase it: because you get uber longbows, you can devote more units to offense. The inference is still there in my statement, if you read between the lines.

All this "oh no, don't let the AI attack you should be on the offensive" is all well and good, but sometimes the AI does send huge stacks your way despite your offence. My point is that argument is somewhat silly as you can't always control who's going to war against you, so protective is nice knowing that if the AI does manage a suprise attack against you the few defenders you have are much more likely to "hold the fort."

As for drill, as offence, yes I've found it somewhat less useful, but until machine guns, I have found a drill promoted defender in conjunction with a CG promoted defender pretty useful against suicide siege weapons.

Whether you rate these things as useful is of course open to debate, but even the most aggressive player has to ensure those things (s)he's captured are defendable, and protective helps a lot with it.
 
I haven't read every post in detail so this may have been covered already. If you're going on a rampage through enemy cities then there is a risk of your stack getting counter-attacked just after its taken a city. A covering force of CG/Drill units can help protect your carefully nurtured stack of CR3 maces/rifles/infantry. That's nothing to do with active vs passive defence of your core territory.
 
Again, with a parity of promotions (3 on both sides), Drill always loses (in turns of win chance) when comparing units of equal base strength.
What those numbers don't say is when you've already inflicted collateral, thus the defenders are damaged, you already have overwhelming odds to win, and the more important factor is how much health do you end up with (so that you can go on to the next city).

Unless you're not really using siege units in your city assaults, Drill promoted units beat out CR promoted units. And, in non-city assaults (in the open or city defense), Drill promoted units beat out CR promoted units whether artillery is used first or not.

I'm sure you can come up with situational occassions where the Drill line can come in handy. My point has never been that there aren't any - just that they are rare. Certainly not enough to redeem the Protective trait, imo.
It's not situational at all... it's every single combat. That's MY point.

Drill beats out CR promotions. CR is overrated.

Look at it this way: You're using siege anyway. And, after using siege, you don't need the extra strength boost because the defending units are weakened. So, arguments touting that extra strength from CR are not relevant in practical terms. It's a mental exercise but doesn't really happen in games.


I'm not sure what you are refering to by "it". I'm just saying that if you are going up against Longbows with Grenadiers, the Drill promotion is going to save you some damage. But you were almost certain to win anyway, so it's not saving you from death.
What I mean is that CR is not going to save you from death either.

But, since you bring it up, we should realize that "saving some damage" is a very important factor. If you can move your army on to the next city without waiting 2-3 turns to heal, that's a big advantage.

Wodan
 
If you read what I wrote before, you'll note that I didn't single out either trait. CG can be dismissed simply because, as wodan agreed, it's useless for anything but passive defense. And passive defense rarely happens in single player games (deserved so). Active defense is almost always superior, and CG doesn't help with that at all.

So that takes care of CG. The rest of the argument was referencing Drill. So both of them were covered.
Yep, I totally agree with Bh here. Passive defense is for the birds. IMO. YMMV.

That said, with BtS the AI is back to doing the occasional sneak sea assault, and it'll go straight at the city. Even if you see it coming, you probably can rally only one or two units there, and these aren't your promoted units, these are the rear garrison troops that you have no intention of using in combat. Since you only have one or two muskets to hold your city, if they get a free CGI and DrillI that could be the difference.

Did you really want to send your front-line troops back to retake that city, plus have lost all your cultural buildings and have to remake them all, plus lose some pop as well as the commerce that building would have made not only during the turns it was lost but also during the time before you have rebuilt your library, university, theatre, etc?

How did they start it? It didn't get started by the people who find protective underpowered, it was started by someone who believes protective is "underestimated". If you're going to claim it's "underestimated", then you need to be able to back that up. I don't believe that CG I and Drill I really accomplish that.
Drill is underestimated. You yourself are prime example of that IMO.

In addition, the strat of using walls and castles to boost the power graph is not even realized by many people, which = "underestimated". Furthermore, the strat of early castles and late obsoletion is ditto, which for the most part is a commerce boost, which means Pro is more versatile than other traits.

Protective doesn't smack you over the head and say "your entire empire gets +1 commerce per tile" like Fin or "you get double GPP" like Phi. That doesn't mean it's a crap trait, it just means it's more subtle. It's also more varied of benefit.

Wodan
 
That 'instead' bit is key. "Grr, my cities are invincible" is a very poor argument for protective, because you don't have to lose your cities to be effectively destroyed. "Grr, my cities are invincible, which lets me do this other thing more effectively" is a much better argument, which Krazy did not make.
AS did, though, which I thought was a very good point. The fact that nobody refuted it (including you and Bh) says that it contributed to the thread and is a bullet point to the list of "Protective is underestimated; here's why:"

Wodan
 
I haven't read every post in detail so this may have been covered already. If you're going on a rampage through enemy cities then there is a risk of your stack getting counter-attacked just after its taken a city. A covering force of CG/Drill units can help protect your carefully nurtured stack of CR3 maces/rifles/infantry. That's nothing to do with active vs passive defence of your core territory.

This.

That is why Protective, ironically, is an excellent trait for the conquerer. I'd say it's not even a risk - the AI will give everything it's got to try and take back cities you've conquered from it. With strong CG units you can just sit there and watch it throw the bulk of its army at you, decimating it in the process. This way you can effectively take on and weaken civs that have a vastly larger army than you, and you will rack up XP towards great generals to use in offensive measures later on. Also, a handful of high level CG units will suffice to take out hordes of attackers, so your main stacks can move on without leaving the city vulnerable.
 
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