Pseudo science: EM Drive

I would call these things 'observations'. Themselves, they are not science. Science begins, when these observations are taken to build a model, which predicts the outcome of future observations and is then tested against these. As long as you just write down observations, you are not doing science, but not pseudo-science or quasi-science either.

Pseudo-science is the imitation of science. It is disguising something as science, when it is not, by framing something in the language of science or with an outright claim of being scientific.
 
Pseudo-science is the imitation of science. It is disguising something as science, when it is not, by framing something in the language of science or with an outright claim of being scientific.
This is just what I said, in less flowery language. With one exception.
Pseudo-science strikes me in its tone of strong judgment as inherently "bad science" to better serve to describe a special kind of infant-science. Infant-science which pretends to be an adult and/or refuses to actually grow up.
An exception which touches a pet topic of mine, so forgive me for taking a bite. (also, I am actually not having a habit of biting pets).
I stress that in general mere "observation", as you say (and I meant, among other things) was in itself already a part of science, even if not the kind of science we, in the end, rely on in natural sciences, even if not the kind of science it all is supposed to lead to and which is supposed to be the solid rock of our understanding (rather than a vague, messy and not unlikely deceiving work in progress like in the case of the topic of this thread).
You stress that this was not "science".

I can see how that strict - shall we say cleanliness of the term "science" makes sense for a field such as physics. It just is such an easy and rewarding field to do science* the best and the hardest way that it makes sense to not include anything else into this privileged club of "actually science".
However, I come from a background of social science (whereas "background" is laying it on thick badly, but let me have a bit of vanity) and as such, I believe to have got to known what such a strict understanding of science leads to. In summarization - it leads to soft sciences which in their vain effort to be hard and hence "real" sciences forget about becoming more useful / getting closer to the truth for the sake of seeming more respectable. A phenomena which deeply and painfully penetrates all areas, right down to the basic curriculum.
And having concerned myself with that problem, I have grown quit aware of what all kinds of factors actually factor into science and what an in the end otherworldly and removed perspective the kind of "science" represents you only admit the title of "science" to. That works in practice fine for say physics, because the material is - in comparison to soft sciences - so so simple and fantastically testable* - that the fact that the "reality" of science is quit a bit different doesn't matter so much and appears more philosophical than relevant.
But it matters tremendously in soft sciences. And the kind of extremely limited scope of what science is and which you seem to share, is IMO a large factor in that.

And I really hate that. There is that.
Have a nice day, I feel better already.

*For the actual person doing the work / research, hard science are of course not easier than soft sciences. Often, the exact opposite evidently seems to be case. What I said is to be put in relation to acquiring knowledge as such, regardless of the difficulty an individual has to encounter in a particular field of science on his or her way to achieve recognition by the scientific community.

Disclaimer: I don't know how much this matters since uppi isn't a native English speaker either, but in German "science" is traditionally a much broader word, called "Wissenschaft", the craft of obtaining knowledge, and without a doubt that difference of semantics has influenced me. But the issue I explained is no less real for it, and it may be no coincidence that the effect of natural sciences on soft sciences I talked about originated in the English-speaking world. And incidentally, before that movement, English-speaking social sciences weren't very relevant and withered in the shadow of their European counterparts.
 
I am well aware of the difference between the English word "science" and the German word "Wissenschaft". Translating one word with the other can be a mistranslation. I am using the word science in its more stringent definition.

In my opinion, either you use the scientific method, or you do not. If you do, you need to be stringent and limit yourself to questions that are actually testable. Otherwise you can easily end up with pseudo-science as you assign numbers to your convictions. If your subject is not accessible with testable hypotheses, then you should approach it with non-scientific academic methods. Those can also lead to valuable insights, despite not using the scientific method.

This talk of soft science is dangerous. It implies that because a problem is hard, you can get away with less rigor. It probably stems from a desire for a result to be taken as definitive as a scientific result, but in the end it helps no one. It creates obstacles for progress on the subject itself, because statements are seen more definitive than they are and it muddies the definition of science and erodes public trust in it, when so-called scientists change their opinion every 5 years.

I guess, I am a bit harsh here. I am too deep into physics right now to shake off that mindset.
 
It never ceases to amaze me how keen people are to believe in nonsense.
 
Define "nonsense".
 
In this case a claim that using extremely well understood processes results in magic never before observed. It's a other con like every other free energy/perpetual motion thing there has ever been. You can even point out to people that those responsible are convicted con men and they still fall for it...
 
Aight folks, I haven't read the entire thread because it ended up with people heftily arguing what science is.

However:
My understanding is that: momentum is preserved when the sum of outer forces is zero.

How does this thingamajig violate that?
 
However:
My understanding is that: momentum is preserved when the sum of outer forces is zero.

How does this thingamajig violate that?

I think there are two ways to understand your question.

1. Conservation of momentum means that no object can accelerate simply from some interior effect. You need to push onto something. For us this is usually Earth, while in space you have some propellant to push against that is ejected. So anything that accelerates in free space without ejecting a propellant is violating conservation of momentum.

2. How is the EMdrive supposed to do this?
There's no currently accepted theory that would allow this to happen. I imagine there's probably some way to get a tiny effect from General Relativity if you're moving space around you, but thats not how the EMdrive supposedly works.
 
Oh.
Well thank you
I've calculated momentum for a couple of years now, but I don't remember that aspect being said on its own.

EDIT: don't people accelerate on swings even without pushing against the ground? I must admit I haven't swung in like 10 years...
 
EDIT: don't people accelerate on swings even without pushing against the ground? I must admit I haven't swung in like 10 years...

To accelerate on a swing you need to displace your own center of mass with respect to the swing. Also you have to this periodically at the swings own frequency. Coupled harmonic oscillators, basically.
 
Well no and no. It's zero. Someone on a swing is not gaining any net momentum and therefore cannot be violating its conservation.
 
Well no and no. It's zero. Someone on a swing is not gaining any net momentum and therefore cannot be violating its conservation.

No, that is not the point. In classical mechanics, momentum has to be conserved at all points in time. That means you cannot get away with comparing average momentum.

The trick is, that the mount of the swing is fixed to the earth. Any momentum change of the swing is accompanied by a very, very tiny momentum change of the swing mount and the earth and these cancel each other. Of course the whole swing-earth system does not change its total momentum.
 
He asked average velocity, not average speed. Speed would not take direction into account, so the backwards movements would not cancel the forward ones.
 
Details, details

In my country we not so strict about difference between speed and velocity
 
Really?

Does this carefree attitude extend to every other vector quantity as well?

That could make for a rather fun, if confusing, experience.
 
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