Public Investigation: People vs. Chieftess, Part II

[naervod]

Charge: Violation of CoL: D.1.E

Evidence provided by Cyc

This charges Chieftess with violating COL D.1.E. This law states that "a Governor organizes tile development in his Province". Chieftess, in abandoning procedure, denied me my rights as a governor and chose to develop the tiles in The North Province (NP) of her own accord.She started doing this on day one of this term and is still doing it, even though I have posted worker action requests all over the DG forums. Chieftess has ignored these requests/instructions altogether and conducted her own worker actions in the North Province. So either way you look at it, Chieftess organized tile development in my Province or Chieftess denied me my rights to organize tile development in my Province, she violated the law.

COL D.1.E states a Governor organizes tile development in his Province.

Worker Action Instructions Posted in the NP Thread on Feb. 1st

Request for Worker Actions Posted in the President's Thread

The Worker Agenda Thread

The Anbdobius Settler Thread

I am going to PM the Public Defender (Octavian X) and the Defendant (Chieftess) notifying them of the charges brought against President Chieftess.

As always, the first two posts are reserved for the Public Defender and the defendant. If they do not post their defense here in 24 hours, this thread is open for discussion.

This thread will be closed and a trial poll will commence after the discussion has lasted for at least 48 hours and also petered out.

 

[Chieftess]

Again, I have to assign the workers based on the tasks all governors (and domestic) want. I had two other things going on: the railway project, and getting cities to size 12. Much of our workforce is foreign, and we've only played an agonizing 7 turns this term! That doesn't give much room to work with foriegn workers. In case you haven't noticed, I have been moving a lot of free workers to that area. But, I also have to get the rails done, and get other cities to size 12. This is EXACTLY why I called for more workers early on. I've even asked governors for more workers.

 

[Octavian X]

Chieftess' right to override governor's worker actions lies in two laws: CoL C.1.G, and CoL D.1.E. Both clearly state that the repective officies may organize worker actions to develop tiles in a province. Therefore, the Chain of Command would settle the dispute between the two conflicting powers (Ref. CoL G.2). Because Chieftess is higher up on the CoC than Cyc, and these powers conflict, what CT saw as necesary overrides what Cyc saw as necesary.

Becuase myself and Chieftess has posted our respective defenses, public comment is now welcomed and encouraged,

 

[Cyc]

Octavian X, that is a totally bogus statement. CoL C.1.G say nothing about tile development in a Province. You are just stretching the law to suit your needs.

 

[Octavian X]

I believe 'tile development in a Province' is implyed by the wording. CoL C.1.G states President organizies decisions about worker actions. Worker actions improve tiles, and those tiles are all within provinces.

 

[Cyc]

Well, I disagree. As do many others that were major contributors to the writing of the Constitution. Let me go get one of Lord Shaitan's latest statements as a quote and I'll show you.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by Octavian X
I believe 'tile development in a Province' is implyed by the wording. CoL C.1.G states President organizies decisions about worker actions. Worker actions improve tiles, and those tiles are all within provinces.

Actually, I believe CoL, C.1.G states that the President organizes worker activity.

The word "decisions" is not included there, and in my opinion that is because those decisions are the domain of the Governors.

Of couse, all of that is open to a very good debate going on in the Judical Review thread.

 

[Cyc]

OK, Octavian X, here's the quote of Shaitan, also know as the Father of the Constitution, taken from the Senate Forum thread in the Government sub-forum.

Quoting Shaitan:
Governors plan the development of their provinces. Build a mine here, irrigate there, make a road between these two cities, etc. The DP decides what work will be done. The DP must choose which jobs are done and in what order, keeping the national agenda in mind. If province development hasn't been designed by a governor the DP must also decide on how to develop the province.

So the gov's fill out the work orders and the DP fills them. If the gov doesn't fill out a work order, the DP does that too.
_________________________________________________

Clearly, the Father of the Constitution disagrees with you too.

 

[Shaitan]

I believe this charge is spurious and should be dismissed. Chieftess could not possibly stop Cyc from organizing development in his province. What she could do is fail to follow his posted instructions. As her actions or lack of them have absolutely nothing to do with Cyc's forum actions to plan the development of his province I view this PI as a waste of time.

Additionally, launching 6 separate PI's is both ridiculous and counterproductive. As we have already seen it is causing confusion and disruption. The workable precedent for multiple charges for a single infraction is to try all of the charges in a single PI. The current situation is untenable and impossible to follow in any constructive manner. As such I will not be boycotting these PI's in their entirety after this post, including unsubscribing from this thread. It will be necessary for people to use the report post function to notify me of forum abuses if they happen as I will not see them through direct monitoring.

 

[donsig]

All right, if I learned one thing last term it is the meaning of spurious.

Given your way of thinking Shaitan the DP/President could ignore the instructions of any leader with impunity. A governor posts a build queue that is ignored. The FA minister instructs that a peace treaty be signed. It is ignored. The trade leader instructs that a certain trade be made. It is ignored. The military leader (in time of invasion of a given province) orders a queue over-ride which is ignored. Yet the DP/President cannot be held accountable because he or she didn't actually stop the leader from *organizing decisions*.

The demogame has always operated under the premise that the citizens will elect a group of leaders who will organize game decisions according to the will of the citizens and the DP will carry out those decisions. We have developed a public turn chat instruction system and citizens have consistantly demanded a public turn chat with public logs. The purpose of these two things is clear: to give the citizens the ability to see if game decisions are being carried out in accordance with their will. Holding leaders accountable goes hand in hand with this system we've developed.

Arguing that the DP is not in violation of this clause of the CoL because Chieftess's actions or lack of them have absolutely nothing to do with Cyc's forum actions to plan the development of his province eats at the very foundation upon which the demogame concept is built.

Our CoL and CoS are meant to define and interpret our constitution. They are not meant to act as a work-around for what is established in the constitution. They have the weight of the constitution behind them. Failing to follow a leader's posted instructions (without an otherwise legal over-ride) is indeed a violation of the CoL clause that defines the leader's authority to post the instruction in the first place. I will vote guilty to this charge.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

I have to concur with donsig.

If we are going to go down the path Shaitan is advocating, then the entire concept of our government will be overturned.

I think that there are very valid times for a DP to override actions as game situations arise, however an indiscriminant rubber stamping of all overrides is a huge mistake.

 

[Cyc]

I agree with donsig and Bill_in_PDX. Shaitan's rebuttal is spurious in that Chieftess not only ignored the instructions left by a Governor in several different locations, but then did other worker actions in that Governor's Province, one that was specifically unapproved in the instructions. Indoing this Chieftess took it upon herself to organize tile development in my Province. This denies me my rights as the Governor of The North Province and as a citizen of Fanatika.

 

[FortyJ]

"You keep using that word.... I do not think it means, what you think it means...." (paraphrased from The Princess Bride)

All spurious stuff aside.... I find this charge most interesting. While this would likely be an open-and-shut case if Chieftess had arbitrarily mined a tile that was irrigated or vice-versa, this is not the case. The allegations are that Chieftess "ignored" Cyc's requests for specific tile development.

I disagree with our esteemed Public Defender's interpretation that the President has the authority to arbitrarily override a governor's instructions because of his or her priority in the chain of command. Any such override should require a presidential decree and a confirming council vote.

However, Chieftess asserts that she was not ignoring the requests, but rather opted to delay such improvements in favor the national railway project.

However, the construction of rails would certainly be classified as tile development, and there appear to be no instructions from Governor Cyc to perform these tasks inside his province. This project (and the implied tile development it would requre) comes from the Domestic Department itself.

So, if the Domestic Department's national rail system is a viable project requiring worker actions throughout all of Fanatika, then would it not seem logical that Chieftess' actions were consistent with the responsibilities assigned to her office?

 

[Cyc]

OK, I really hate to have to keep saying this, because it makes me look just as bad as the people who can't quite come to grips with this PI. To begin with, we are talking about instructions that were posted in several places before the 1130ad turn chat. These instructions contained a picture indicating where the work needed to be done. It also showed the location of idle workers waiting for movement to the desired locations (I'm guessing there was 9 workers in the Province, but I will double check). The instruction Map shows the terrain with the current improvements. The gist of this PI has nothing to do with railroads as we had no idea when we would be getting that tech or who we would be getting that tech from at this time. It was still a long way off, long enough to knock out an improvement or two. I specifically told Chieftess that a mine was not needed SE of Androbius at this time. The two irrigating projects were more important for the growth of two cities than another mine. I also stated that we did not need any work done in the Tundra NE of Androbius at this time. All of this was laid out for her and she has admitted to reading it, but went ahead and ignored my postings and did this anyway. Below is the 1130ad Worker Action picture that was posted in the North Province thread that I left links to in the Presidents thread, her Worker Action thread, and her Androbius Settler thread (really, isn't that enough). Below that is the pictue of the same area, that shows how Chieftess ignored the instructions and did the work she wanted anyway. She may have been hoiping that we would get rails soon, but this was just a guess. Regardless, if there was enough time for her to do the work that was done before we got Steam Power, there was enough time to do the work in the instructions.

The trail of numbers indicated the worker that Chieftess decided to do instead of following the instructions. Also, please note that she brought the worker South of Kuhkaff up onto the road, but didn't irrigate the plains SSW of Kuhkaff, as instructed.

Again, as people don't seem to realize the intent of the PI, i will reiterate, Chieftess not only ignored my instructions, but went ahead and used the time that could have been spent in the areas that the Province needed on her own private unannounce work projects, two of which were in direct contridiction to my instructions.

 

[Falcon02]

So what your saying is that when Governors make worker requests they must be done that t/c as soon as there's an open worker, even with such projects as the National Railroad?!

And if Governors have no specific requests the Workers Can't do anything w/o "disrupting a province"?!

Or when Pollution pops up, the Governor must request that pollution being cleaned up since that counts as a "worker improvement" (you can now use the land).

Personally i think this standard is rediculous (Yes I realize I exaggerated a bit, esp. for that last one ).

The way I see it, Governor improvements must be done when a settler isn't sent for something else (ala the Railraod system) With working on our Railroad our spare workers a few, with the majority making sure we get a quick railroad system. Governers shouldn't feel that their requests take priority over National projects.

 

[Cyc]

Again, Falcon02, now you are not seeing the picture as presented.

1. The railroad project was not in effect in1130ad and we were not sure when we would be getting Steam Power.

2. There were a group of idle workers in the Province awaiting instructions.

3. If the Governor makes no request for tile improvement in their Province, then this issue would not even come up. Even so, if no Instructions were given, then I'm sure there would be plenty of other requests for worker action elsewhere in the country. Plus, if the President (not the DP) really felt the need to do improvements in a Province without worker action istructions, then in lieu of instructions from an elected official the President may organize worker action without Governor approval. This question has nothing really to do with the PI and should go in the review.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

What Cyc says is true. The circumstances surrounding this PI originated before we even had Steam Power. Therefore, the national railroad program wasn't an issue at this time.

 

[Goonie]

So what your saying is that when Governors make worker requests they must be done that t/c as soon as there's an open worker, even with such projects as the National Railroad?! - Falcon

I really wish people would read things before opening their mouths.

I must add to the evidence of this proceding.

I posted worker instructions to mine the iron outside of Zorgonzolia multiple times, and it has yet to be done.

1070 AD

1070AD2 Here I only asked to stay on course as I thought she had already started mining.

1200AD. Asked again. I am unable to d/l the save, so I am not sure whether or not the action has been completed.

 

[Chieftess]

Again, There's a lot of foreign workers who were already completing other takes. And, like I said before This is WHY I asked for more workers in the first place!. Had I had more workers, we wouldn't be having this problem right now. We only have about 15-20 'native workers', and 60 or so foriegn workers. That means they'll get things done SLOWER than normal workers. Last game, we had industrious workers and democracy, so things got done quickly. Here we're at a disadvantage because:

1 - We're not industrious
2 - Much of our workforce is foreign
3 - A large nation means our workers are going to be stretched thin in what they can do.

 

[Goonie]

Even if our workforce is foreign, I dont see why you ignored worker task instructions to do other things? So just because things will take longer you wont do them? Your logic doesn't make sense.