Cyc
Looking for the door...
CT, you sure didn't have any problem pumping out that mine or roading in The North Province during the same time period.
Public Investigation: People vs. Chieftess, Part II
- Thread starter naervod
- Start date
donsig
Low level intermediary
If we were industrious and had only domestic workers we would still have the same problem Chieftess. This public investigation was initiated bacause you not only did not perform the tile improvements a governor requested you actually improved other tiles in the province. That is what this specific PI is about. I am sorry we are not industrious. I am sorry we do not have a zillion domestic workers for you to get everything done the way you want it. We all realize that everything cannot be accomplished at once. We realized that when we wrote our rules and set things up a certain way. One of the things we did was put tile improvemnets under governors responsibility while giving the DP/President enough leeway to get things done even if barraged by requests from governors.
There has been no such barrage this term. Your defense that we have foreign workers and are not industrious is not convincing since you managed to get other improvements done in the North Province. Since these PI's have begun I've seen posts from two other governors (Grandmaster and Goonie) who have pointed out that their tile improvement requests have been ignored as well. A look at the current save will show that you have just about every single worker we have working on the national railway project. While it is important I see no need to complete it immediately and I certainly see no cause for needed improvements to go undone. You have obviously taken control of our work force without bothering to determine if you are doing what the citizens of Fanatika want and in doing so have violated our highest constitutional principles.
donsig
Low level intermediary
I think it is time to put this one to the verdict poll.
FortyJ
Deity
This thread has not remained open for the minimum 48 hours. Furthermore, as this discussion has been open almost entirely during the weekend, I am inclined to extend the 48 hour minimum by an additional 24 hours so that those citizens that only have access during the week can participate as well.
As far as the recent clarifications made by Cyc with respect to these charges, I will ponder this further.
As far as the recent clarifications made by Cyc with respect to these charges, I will ponder this further.
Falcon02
General
I (half-regretingly) must say that I now agree with Cyc on this issue, I see no reason for the requests not to have been done as requested, except for "missing" the requests. Though with Cyc including that picture it would have been hard to look over during the build queues.
Bill_in_PDX
Grumpy Submariner
CT, I regret to say that your comment here simply makes the point all the more clearer that the worker assets we do have be used for governor approved projects, as opposed to random tile improvements.
naervod
My current user title
I will post a verdict poll for this thread later tonight. It has been about three days (72 hours) since this thead was started and it is time for a poll.
FortyJ
Deity
Cyc
An excellent rebuttal, but....
Of the four specific sites that you have shown, were any of these actions directly contrary to your instructions (ie. she mined a tile that you had instructed her to irrigate, or similar)? Or is this still essentially an issue of prioritization?
Granted, the national program which was mistakenly mentioned earlier was not in place as of 1130AD, but is the presence of such a program a prerequisite for the President to prioritize worker tasks as he or she sees fit?
I have reviewed your posted instructions in the appropriate instruction threads up to the time of this PI, and I do not see any specific instructions that forbid Chieftess from mining the tile SE,SE of Androbius, or from performing any of the actions she is being accused of doing.
I think it is fairly obvious that Chieftess acted inconsistently with how you would have handled the situation, but were her actions illegal? She is being charged with denying your rights to manage the tile development in your province. Has she actually done this? Has she actually developed a tile in a manner opposed to your instructions?
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On an aside, and I say this with great reluctance, for I am certain that my remarks will draw harsh criticism from some, but I feel compelled to express my personal concerns on the precedent that this investigation may result in.
If there is proof that Chieftess acted in a way directly opposed to the instructions provided to her by Cyc (or any other governor), then she should be found guilty of this charge. However, if she is found guilty simply on the grounds that she did not act fast enough, or that she performed a task that was not requested, then we will be establishing a most dangerous precedent.
The president/DP must be allowed discretion with respect to the timing and priority of tasks. Otherwise, we risk the possibility of countless PIs in the future as governors cry foul because the DP failed to failed to build a road in tile A when it was requested to do so two whole turns ago, or that the DP opted to connect a road to a new city when the governor specifically requested that a tile be mined first. Not to mention the possibility of a DP ending the turn chat prematurely, simply because the governors failed to provide specific worker instructions for their respective provinces and the DP does not wish to risk a barrage of PIs.
Do not misunderstand me. I have no desire to acquit Chieftess simply for the sake of gameplay or fear of possible repurcussions. If she has acted directly opposed to the wishes of the governor (and by this, I mean developing a tile in a manner inconsistent with the governors posted instructions, not the timing of such action), then she should be convicted of this charge. Otherwise, she should be acquited of this charge.
An excellent rebuttal, but....
Of the four specific sites that you have shown, were any of these actions directly contrary to your instructions (ie. she mined a tile that you had instructed her to irrigate, or similar)? Or is this still essentially an issue of prioritization?
Granted, the national program which was mistakenly mentioned earlier was not in place as of 1130AD, but is the presence of such a program a prerequisite for the President to prioritize worker tasks as he or she sees fit?
I have reviewed your posted instructions in the appropriate instruction threads up to the time of this PI, and I do not see any specific instructions that forbid Chieftess from mining the tile SE,SE of Androbius, or from performing any of the actions she is being accused of doing.
I think it is fairly obvious that Chieftess acted inconsistently with how you would have handled the situation, but were her actions illegal? She is being charged with denying your rights to manage the tile development in your province. Has she actually done this? Has she actually developed a tile in a manner opposed to your instructions?
<><><><><>
On an aside, and I say this with great reluctance, for I am certain that my remarks will draw harsh criticism from some, but I feel compelled to express my personal concerns on the precedent that this investigation may result in.
If there is proof that Chieftess acted in a way directly opposed to the instructions provided to her by Cyc (or any other governor), then she should be found guilty of this charge. However, if she is found guilty simply on the grounds that she did not act fast enough, or that she performed a task that was not requested, then we will be establishing a most dangerous precedent.
The president/DP must be allowed discretion with respect to the timing and priority of tasks. Otherwise, we risk the possibility of countless PIs in the future as governors cry foul because the DP failed to failed to build a road in tile A when it was requested to do so two whole turns ago, or that the DP opted to connect a road to a new city when the governor specifically requested that a tile be mined first. Not to mention the possibility of a DP ending the turn chat prematurely, simply because the governors failed to provide specific worker instructions for their respective provinces and the DP does not wish to risk a barrage of PIs.
Do not misunderstand me. I have no desire to acquit Chieftess simply for the sake of gameplay or fear of possible repurcussions. If she has acted directly opposed to the wishes of the governor (and by this, I mean developing a tile in a manner inconsistent with the governors posted instructions, not the timing of such action), then she should be convicted of this charge. Otherwise, she should be acquited of this charge.
Cyc
Looking for the door...
40J, I very much disagree with your statement that the DP has authority to determine what improvements should be made in any given province at their discretion. That is absurd. I have posted proposals in donsig's worker allocations and in your Judicial review that deal with this subject, just to show the Judiciary that I am not unreasonable and willing to compromise. What you are suggesting is giving the DP Gestapo power to improve when and where they see fit. While you contemplate that, I will be collecting the evidence that you require in the 11th hour. You couldn't have done this earlier?
First on the list:
Post #20 in the President's thread
Links to the Instructions in The North Province thread that were in the President's thread, her Worker Action Thread, and the Androbius thread.
These two examples should make it clearly obvious to you that instructions not to mine and road around Androbius were given to the President before she started the work.
First on the list:
Post #20 in the President's thread
Links to the Instructions in The North Province thread that were in the President's thread, her Worker Action Thread, and the Androbius thread.
These two examples should make it clearly obvious to you that instructions not to mine and road around Androbius were given to the President before she started the work.
FortyJ
Deity
Cyc
Save yourself the time Cyc. I have read the related discussion threads, and I have printed all of the instruction threads for the first four turn chats for my personal reference.
I was not asking you to go searching for links to specific posts. I was only trying to clear away the clutter and cut to the core of the issue. The DP cannot be responsible for searching through the entire forum for tile development instructions for each individual tile on the board. That would be absurd.
If you had posted instructions in the turn chat instruction thread to not mine the tile SE,SE of Androbius, then CT would clearly be guilty of this charge. However, I see no evidence of this.
Save yourself the time Cyc. I have read the related discussion threads, and I have printed all of the instruction threads for the first four turn chats for my personal reference.
I was not asking you to go searching for links to specific posts. I was only trying to clear away the clutter and cut to the core of the issue. The DP cannot be responsible for searching through the entire forum for tile development instructions for each individual tile on the board. That would be absurd.
If you had posted instructions in the turn chat instruction thread to not mine the tile SE,SE of Androbius, then CT would clearly be guilty of this charge. However, I see no evidence of this.
Cyc
Looking for the door...
Quoting 40J:
I think it is fairly obvious that Chieftess acted inconsistently with how you would have handled the situation, but were her actions illegal? She is being charged with denying your rights to manage the tile development in your province. Has she actually done this? Has she actually developed a tile in a manner opposed to your instructions?
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Acted inconsistantly with how I would have handled the situation? What are you talking about 40J? The law states quite clearly that a Governor decides how tiles are developed in a Province. If I was to lean way over to your side of the arguement and say that the law doesn't say "WHEN" an improvement has to be done, that still doesn't relieve CT of the offense of developing the Province in a manner inconsistant with instructions. And by this I mean doing the mining and roading in the Province that the Governor did not prioritize.
The law states that the Governor will decide how the Province tiles will be developed, not the President/DP. How much more plainly does the law have to state that?
I think it is fairly obvious that Chieftess acted inconsistently with how you would have handled the situation, but were her actions illegal? She is being charged with denying your rights to manage the tile development in your province. Has she actually done this? Has she actually developed a tile in a manner opposed to your instructions?
_____________________________________
Acted inconsistantly with how I would have handled the situation? What are you talking about 40J? The law states quite clearly that a Governor decides how tiles are developed in a Province. If I was to lean way over to your side of the arguement and say that the law doesn't say "WHEN" an improvement has to be done, that still doesn't relieve CT of the offense of developing the Province in a manner inconsistant with instructions. And by this I mean doing the mining and roading in the Province that the Governor did not prioritize.
The law states that the Governor will decide how the Province tiles will be developed, not the President/DP. How much more plainly does the law have to state that?
Cyc
Looking for the door...
No, 40J. the absurdness is that Chieftess has already publically admitted that she read the worker action thread and this means see obviously saw and used the link in that thread to see the instructions.
The link was also in two other threads which she monitored, including her presidential thread. There is no way she could have missed it.
The link was also in two other threads which she monitored, including her presidential thread. There is no way she could have missed it.
Gingerbread Man
Dark Magus
May I point out -
I built two workers in Bizen to improve the city, because no currently existing ones seemed to be fixing the city.
I said specifically "the workers Bizen builds shall be used to improve the area around Bizen before they are sent to national projects." what do I get?
the city radius of bizen hasn't been touched. I have no idea where my workers went. I just wasted four turns and two population points on those workers. EVEN AFTER I BUILT TWO WORKERS TO COMPLETE MY REQUESTED TASK, THE JOB HAS NOT BEEN DONE!
I built two workers in Bizen to improve the city, because no currently existing ones seemed to be fixing the city.
I said specifically "the workers Bizen builds shall be used to improve the area around Bizen before they are sent to national projects." what do I get?
the city radius of bizen hasn't been touched. I have no idea where my workers went. I just wasted four turns and two population points on those workers. EVEN AFTER I BUILT TWO WORKERS TO COMPLETE MY REQUESTED TASK, THE JOB HAS NOT BEEN DONE!
FortyJ
Deity
Gingerbread Man
There is nothing in our laws that allows the governor to determine when a worker can be released to work on other projects, whether they are national projects or local needs in a different part of the nation. Governors can request action be taken within their province, but the President can move the workers to situations with more pressing needs as he or she sees fit.
It is entirely possible, that in your example, workers were needed to connect gems for trade to potential allies, construct roads so that our troops can reach the front lines in India and Babylon more quickly, or chop down some trees to prevent another city from starving to death.
Cyc
I applaud your passion with this case, but I must disagree with your conclusions.
Posting your desires and/or intentions in discussion threads does not, and should not, bind the president to those tasks. This is the equivalent of the Foreign Affairs minister stating in a discussion thread that we should declare war on a nation, and thus obligating the DP to do so in the next turn chat. Discussion threads are for discussions, instruction threads are for instructions.
The DP may go looking for information in a poll or discussion thread, but is not obligated to do so. Preturns already consume too much time. If the DP is required to scan every thread for information, the task will become impossible to manage. Chieftess was aware of your intentions, and did not enact those requests in a timely manner, for which she may deserve criticism, but I do not see how her actions violated the law.
For the record, my interpretation of these rules does not forbid nor deny the governors any rights afforded them by the constitution. The governors would still have ultimate control over how the land within their provinces is developed. The President's office, however, would retain authority over determining when. Presumably, the governors would work in conjunction with the President's office to coordinate these tasks, which does not mean that the governor can dictate to the President what gets done in which order.
There is nothing in our laws that allows the governor to determine when a worker can be released to work on other projects, whether they are national projects or local needs in a different part of the nation. Governors can request action be taken within their province, but the President can move the workers to situations with more pressing needs as he or she sees fit.
It is entirely possible, that in your example, workers were needed to connect gems for trade to potential allies, construct roads so that our troops can reach the front lines in India and Babylon more quickly, or chop down some trees to prevent another city from starving to death.
Cyc
I applaud your passion with this case, but I must disagree with your conclusions.
Posting your desires and/or intentions in discussion threads does not, and should not, bind the president to those tasks. This is the equivalent of the Foreign Affairs minister stating in a discussion thread that we should declare war on a nation, and thus obligating the DP to do so in the next turn chat. Discussion threads are for discussions, instruction threads are for instructions.
The DP may go looking for information in a poll or discussion thread, but is not obligated to do so. Preturns already consume too much time. If the DP is required to scan every thread for information, the task will become impossible to manage. Chieftess was aware of your intentions, and did not enact those requests in a timely manner, for which she may deserve criticism, but I do not see how her actions violated the law.
For the record, my interpretation of these rules does not forbid nor deny the governors any rights afforded them by the constitution. The governors would still have ultimate control over how the land within their provinces is developed. The President's office, however, would retain authority over determining when. Presumably, the governors would work in conjunction with the President's office to coordinate these tasks, which does not mean that the governor can dictate to the President what gets done in which order.
donsig
Low level intermediary
If the governor posted tile improvement instructions and the DP instead did other tile improvements nearby then the DP has violated the clause identified in this PI unless the DP is carrying out some pre-approved national agenda.
It sure looks as though Chieftess did do other improvements. The only national agenda up for discussion was the railnet and we couldn't even work on that at the time.
That is what is relevent to the PI, not how much authority the DP/governors should have over workers.
It sure looks as though Chieftess did do other improvements. The only national agenda up for discussion was the railnet and we couldn't even work on that at the time.
That is what is relevent to the PI, not how much authority the DP/governors should have over workers.
Cyc
Looking for the door...
Thank you, donsig. What 40J is failing to realize is that what he is saying not only ignores, but violates CoL D.1.E. He's saying that the DP can preform other worker actions ina province, contrary to the Governors wishes as long as the Governors wishes are done sometime before the end of the game. This in essence rewrites the law to say that the DP organizes tile development in all Provinces at there whim. I wasn't aware that the CJ could re-write the Code of Laws that easily...
Donovan Zoi
The Return
Simply stated: The governor gets to "organize tile development in his province." If the DP supercedes a governors instructions and chooses to develop something else within the province, then she would be "organiz(ing) tile development in his province." This can only be done by Spot Council Vote. Otherwise our hapless governors could possibly be wasting their time planning and organizing for a day that will never come.
With all due respect, FortyJ, your assessment would give the governors no rights whatsoever in respect to development of their province. They would be fully at the mercy of the DP.
And Cyc, for future reference, you can post in all of the Government threads that you want. However, your request would not be valid under our laws unless those directives made it into the Turnchat Instruction Thread. Even so, for the stated case, I still find that there is enough evidence to vote Guilty on this count.
With all due respect, FortyJ, your assessment would give the governors no rights whatsoever in respect to development of their province. They would be fully at the mercy of the DP.
And Cyc, for future reference, you can post in all of the Government threads that you want. However, your request would not be valid under our laws unless those directives made it into the Turnchat Instruction Thread. Even so, for the stated case, I still find that there is enough evidence to vote Guilty on this count.
FortyJ
Deity
Consider a situation in which there are a handful of workers in the far southeast corner of a province. The governor's instructions to the DP include irrigating the plains in the far northeast corner of the province (let's say two turns march from their current location). Should the DP be obligated to cease all work in the southeast and march clear across the province to commence work in the northeast immediately? What if the distance is so great that it would take five turns or more to reach that area? At this level of difficulty, such inefficiency could spell disaster.
If we assume that the DP should have the right to direct the workers to work their way up to the northeast corner, what tasks can be performed? Should the DP be restricted to only building roads? What about irrigating the land on the way there? ... or how about a well-placed mine next to a city in need of some additional production? If the governor has not provided instructions, what should the DP be permitted to do?
Of course, if the governor is present at the turn chat, the DP can simply ask the governor what he or she would like done. However, if the governor is absent from the chat, what then? Should the DP do nothing and simply move them to their intended destination? Or perhaps, he or she may decide to end the chat early rather than waste those precious turns that could be spent in more productive ways.
If governors are going to be given authority over how quickly a task must be commenced, irregardless of the situation at hand, then maybe we should consider making their attendance at turn chats mandatory.
Maybe we should consider ammending the rules so that the DP can have control over the workers as long as the worker is not idle or positioned in a tile adjacent to another tile that the governor wants to be worked, or when the governor says pretty please in the instruction thread, or during turn chats that occur on Tuesday evenings under a full moon. I think that will make things run so much smoother.
If we assume that the DP should have the right to direct the workers to work their way up to the northeast corner, what tasks can be performed? Should the DP be restricted to only building roads? What about irrigating the land on the way there? ... or how about a well-placed mine next to a city in need of some additional production? If the governor has not provided instructions, what should the DP be permitted to do?
Of course, if the governor is present at the turn chat, the DP can simply ask the governor what he or she would like done. However, if the governor is absent from the chat, what then? Should the DP do nothing and simply move them to their intended destination? Or perhaps, he or she may decide to end the chat early rather than waste those precious turns that could be spent in more productive ways.
If governors are going to be given authority over how quickly a task must be commenced, irregardless of the situation at hand, then maybe we should consider making their attendance at turn chats mandatory.
Maybe we should consider ammending the rules so that the DP can have control over the workers as long as the worker is not idle or positioned in a tile adjacent to another tile that the governor wants to be worked, or when the governor says pretty please in the instruction thread, or during turn chats that occur on Tuesday evenings under a full moon. I think that will make things run so much smoother.
Cyc
Looking for the door...
How about if we just have the DP folow the instructions left by the Governor? That's what the CoL states should happen.
FortyJ
Deity
So, workers should perform only those tasks instructed by the governors?
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