Pursuing domination victory from an isolated start?

[futurehermit]

Well, I know it would be a stiff challenge, but I wonder if it would be impossible to achieve a domination victory (patched warlords/emperor/continents/standard/normal) if stuck with an isolated start?

I suspect you wouldn't be able to attack until you had astronomy (duh) and state property (communism).

So, I think the initial plan would to be to beeline optics (to find trading partners) and then liberalism, taking astronomy from liberalism.

That takes care of the first 1/2 of what is needed.

But then what?

Clearly, you would have to get a military tech that will allow you to invade.

I'm not sure what that would be. What do you think?

And then you would need to be massing this/these unit(s) while teching toward communism with the goal of timing your invasion with the arrival of state property.

So, the first question would be:

-What military would you choose to amass and can you do this without being totally backwards initially from the isolated start?

And, the second question would be:

-Would there be enough time to get a domination victory before the AI launches???

Thoughts?

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I am not sure that you can wait until State Property and you don't need it initially as you can use a forbidden palace. What about:

- Beeline optics, find trading partners, try to forment war (I suspect you are completed stuffed if the other civs are sharing a religion so avoid starting more than one yourself).
- Liberalism -> Astronomy
- Build your fleet and try and take out your first opponent with whatever you have at that point. Probably maces and catapults. Build forbidden palace.
- Tech to cavalry ASAP - probably will arrive during the first war.
- Vassalize defeated opponents - after the first victim you probably don't want to hold too many cities. Keep capitals and good cities, raze the rest, culture bomb to get land.
- Tech to communism & State property

I think vassals would be key to keeping the war momentum going - each vassal you add increases your relative power and makes your opponents surrender earlier, leaving them stronger as vassals. The effect would snowball .

But could you tech fast enough to:
- Be first to optics
- Be first to liberalism
- Be first to cavalry (I think you will need to be first here as you will really need a tech lead to keep the war momentum going initially until you have the biggest army on the mainland).

I don't think I could do that on Emperor. On Monarch I could possibly pull it off if I was lucky in the start and the mixture of AIs.

If you don't try it early with cavalry, then by the time you have state property rifles will be in play and you will need a lot more troops.

The other option would be to wait for tanks and bombers where you can capture cities very quickly. But I don't think I could drive my tanks far enough around the world before the AI launched.

 

[Elrohir]

Additionally, you could save a GE to get the Forbidden Palace or Versailles up quickly on the other continent. It would be much more difficult if you had to build the thing the old fashioned way, and the maintenance costs would kill you in the meantime.

 

[Galileo44]

I think this deserves some testing with custom settings/using a tool to find an isolated start. Then we could get a bunch of people to play it. It seems that the key would be to stockpile some Maces and cats, then go Liberalism--> astronomy. At the same time, cash as many GMs as you can get for cash using caravels or galleons. When you hit chem, upgrade and sail. Epic speed would certainly help to give you more time for troop mobilization.

 

[cabert]

My guess would be astronomy and chemistry for frigates, galleons and grenadiers.
If you can tech up to steel, it's getting better : canons!

I can see some situations where you would use you caravels to sink the galleys and triremes before the AI is up to optics, to avoid the (almost free for them) upgrading to frigates and such.


The hard part IMHO is to bring enough troops for a total conquest of one AI.
This could be made much easier if you manage to dogpile on the mutual enemy in the place

 

[Zionel]

Ok, i'm no pro here. But wouldn't it be hard to beat the AI to Optics without trading for the other techs needed to develop your economy to actually research optics fast enough? I mean, those are some heavy techs that has to be researched/lightbulped on your own.

If this is easy to overcome, please let me know. Would be nice to know the best way to acheive this when i do get stranded on an island

 

[cabert]

Ok, i'm no pro here. But wouldn't it be hard to beat the AI to Optics without trading for the other techs needed to develop your economy to actually research optics fast enough? I mean, those are some heavy techs that has to be researched/lightbulped on your own.

If this is easy to overcome, please let me know. Would be nice to know the best way to acheive this when i do get stranded on an island

a simple beeline should do the trick
no need to research alphabet if you're alone

 

[futurehermit]

Machinery can be lightbulbed with a GS and you need the prerequisite techs anyways (calendar, metcast, compass) and I believe optics can be beelined after that and then astronomy if you want to take something else from liberalism (on the way to chemistry for example...)

 

[cabert]

Machinery can be lightbulbed with a GS and you need the prerequisite techs anyways (calendar, metcast, compass) and I believe optics can be beelined after that and then astronomy if you want to take something else from liberalism (on the way to chemistry for example...)

I'm not sure you will manage to be first to liberalism with an isolated start.
In fact, it would be a real surprise for me, at emperor level.
If you don't research alphabet, you won't get the great library, meaning you'll be low on great scientists meaning no easy lightbulb for philo and education.

 

[Thrar]

Keeping up in tech is the biggest problem I think. Provided your continent is big enough to manage that, get to astronomy fast (could skip paper/edu/lib altogether), and go the guilds path to grenadiers and frigates.

With grens you can wage war until infantry comes around, so you should have plenty of time. Going for steel next is a great thing, too; cannons are incredibly powerful at that time, and ironclads are nice to have, too. See that you establish a foothold, try to bring in some other civs into the war, and soon you can play it just like being on their continent from the beginning.

 

[futurehermit]

I don't know about skipping lib altogether. I would say you want to limit their tech advantage and getting liberalism is one way to do that. They've already had the advantage of trading for centuries...

Better I think to go up the optics path then up the lib path taking astronomy from lib on the way to chem. Lightbulb pp and you should be able to trade ed/lib/pp for whatever you need and keep astro and chem in your back pocket as long as possible.

 

[cabert]

I don't know about skipping lib altogether. I would say you want to limit their tech advantage and getting liberalism is one way to do that. They've already had the advantage of trading for centuries...

Better I think to go up the optics path then up the lib path taking astronomy from lib on the way to chem. Lightbulb pp and you should be able to trade ed/lib/pp for whatever you need and keep astro and chem in your back pocket as long as possible.

For me it's a double path. And as such it's not a beeline.
Which means you won't be first to optics. Which means you can just as well beeline to liberalism and wait until an AI comes knocking.

 

[lilnev]

If you go to Optics first, I don't think you can win Liberalism. I wouldn't even try. The real question is whether a Lit diversion before Optics is worth it to get the GL. I'd be tempted to try it.

peace,
lilnev

 

[InvisibleStalke]

So what if you went liberalism first - including GL and lightbulbing education. Try to setup a massive research powerhouse.

Then tech to grenadiers / cannon and build your army.

Then finally tech to astronomy. By then you will probably be discovered and can trade somewhat. It means you won't be first to optics, but you might still be first to astronomy and even if you aren't you hopefully due to liberalism and prioritizing education will still be competitive with the AI.

Then you hit them. Probably selecting weak victims at first that you can dogpile.

 

[Welnic]

If a some people want to try a map I can make one. Just let me know the settings and what it needs to be like when generated.

 

[Syndrome Zed]

For me it's a double path. And as such it's not a beeline.
Which means you won't be first to optics. Which means you can just as well beeline to liberalism and wait until an AI comes knocking.

I'm inclined to "agree" with going lib first - I'm not sure a beeline to optics is even necessary. Depending on the research produceable by your own continent, you could easily wind up getting to optics after the AI anyway. Might as well let them develop cross-ocean traffic first while you work towards maces-cats, or once you can try and take advantage of trading tech, continuing up to grens and/or cannons.

 

[futurehermit]

Ok, well it seems to me best then to go lib first and tech to chemistry, hoping to trade for optics at some point. Then could lightbulb astronomy I guess...

 

[kniteowl]

LOL...

If you want to light bulb Machinery Use a GE... The very first Tech on their list of techs to light bulb is Machinery.

Being Isolated I don't have to worry about building military as much... just enough to fend off the barbs so I'd go for Wonders... Preferable Oracle and Pyramids even on Emp... You technically have the Advantage because you don't have to worry about expansion as much, expand at your own speed without the worry of the AI getting there before you and if the Barb Settle
there, GREAT you don't have to build a Settler and you get Free EXP.

We also haven't Decided which Traits are best suited for an Isolated start. If you're going to war overseas... Organised would be the most obvious trait. The 2nd trait is either Industrious or Philosophical. Industrious Because getting those two early wonders I've Stated above would be very Handy and Philosophical because you want those Great People Born Quickly so you can Light bulb those techs on your way to Liberalism===> Astronomy.

I believe a SE with Representation is general Quicker then a CE in the Early Part of the Game. Assuming we get the Pyramids and we're Philosophical, (I guess it'd also work with Industrious) there's a good potential that we're be able to keep up in tech with the AI in the early part of the Game until Liberalism. By that time hopefully our overseas Wars should slow down the AI and it's easier to accumulate military units quickly under a SE when using the Draft and your more likely to have Production Cities because you're mostly building farms to support Specialist therefore also mining those hill tiles.

Note: A GS will light bulb Optics Relatively Early on it's List. Assuming you have the Required techs for Optics.

1st Light bulb Philosophy then Delay Civil Service so you won't Light bulb Education and there you have Optics.

Although I'd say this is optional,

Great Scientist:

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
The Wheel
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics

The Diversion to Literature for GL isn't worth it under the SE, an extra two GS is quite insignificant compared to all the specialist you'll be assigning. What's an extra 8 GPP? 16 if your Philosophical.

If your also taking UU AND UB into consideration the Vikings would be the Best under these Circumstances, UU gets Free Amb Promo and UB gives Free Navigation 1 to all Naval units.

Agg/Fin would be helpful... I guess to Maximise these trait in those circumstance... going for Colossus for the 4C Coastal tiles and Agg would speak for itself during the War.

 

[futurehermit]

A GE is much harder to generate early on in the game unless you are in fact able to obtain the GW + Pyramids (either one individually and the GE takes a long time to appear).

A GS lightbulbs Machinery as long as you have: compass, calendar, metal casting and NOT civil service. The next one would then do optics I believe. Then you can go CS and go up the paper-education-liberalism route and GSs will lightbulb all 3 techs (not complete amount of ed or lib, but a lot of them).

 

[kniteowl]

Great Scientist:

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
The Wheel
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
Biology
Electricity
Flight
Genetics
Compass
Satellites
Sailing
Alphabet
Calendar
Medicine
Ecology
Iron Working
Metal Casting
Engineering
Steam Power
Liberalism
Agriculture
Masonry
Bronze Working
Machinery

You can use a GS to light bulb Machinery if you want, but I'd consider using a GE much quicker... more so when your Philosophical it's better to use a GE. Yo u can always consider the Oracle Slingshot to MC, build a Forge and Use a Engineer Specialist.

Excluding the techs BW, IW, Compass and MC on the list because they are required for Optics so you'll have to research them for the beeline anywayz.

The Other Techs you'll have to research in order to get to Machinery with your GS are Mathematics, Alphabet, Calender, Masonry and Sailing

Those combined techs cost more then Machinery so I dunno if it's such a great idea to light bulb when you could beeline faster.

You could ignore Fishing so your GS Doesn't light bulb Sailing but then you're wasting seafood resources which are much more common on isolated starts.