PYL proposal: unrestricted leaders

[dalamb]

I haven't seen a Pick Your Leader game since January, and had a particular combo in mind for a kind of role-playing challenge nobody else would be interested in, so I thought of a way to make it work as a PYL.

The idea is to pick an interesting group of leader/civ combinations; there have been recent suggestions in a separate thread. For my own personal fun I'd want the following special considerations:

1. Exactly one Creative leader (the one I'd run).
2. Some map type like Pangaea that puts everything on a single continent.
3. Exactly one civilization (mine) that starts with Mysticism.

All the others would be chosen to maximize everyone else' fun.

What's going on is that I want to try out the Cultural Domination strategy, where it's Always Peace and you can only dominate via your own cities plus culture-flip takeovers. This is inspired by Sulla's web page on his Passive-Aggressive Hatty game. This would be the "special challenge" for this game but I expect I'd be the only one to turn on Always Peace; everybody else could have a more normal game. Creative makes for easier initial cultural expansion; Pangaea avoids the problem of getting a foodhold on another landmass; Mysticism gives me a good chance of getting Stonehenge before everyone else, which is an essential part of Sulla's strategy.

So here's the input I'd like before trying to set this up:

• What combos would you like to see?
• Do you have any advice on which Creative leader would be best? I'd prefer not Hatty, 'cause it's been done, and maybe not Willem since I've played him recently in Nobles' Club 18 (though Cre/Fin does sound attractive).
• What steps do I take to make sure the Monarch and above WB saves are right? I sort of know about archery but am not a WB expert.
• How exactly do I ensure the initial unit (warrior or scout) is in the same place for everybody?

And, most important of all, would y'all find this kind of game fun?

 

[michmbk]

If we're going with that type of victory, I would want to go with Louis XIV of either China or Ethiopia. Or perhaps even HRE - since you need to settle aggressively near the other civs, that's at least a way to pay for it.

In terms of other civs, a philosophical/rome combo might be interesting - Gandhi could be tough there. Someone organized with Zulu - see how they handle the economy. Then maybe a Mansa teching type with Korea or Russia to keep the global tech rate high.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

Not a fan of unrestricted leaders or random personalities, let alone weird games like a culture-domination.

I appreciate the creativity and the effort of some players to find new interesting way to play this game, but it's not my cup of tea. Sure, it's interesting to read about a single challenge along those lines, but an open game?

To sum it up, I'd be curious to read about a challenge like this. But making it a PYL game? Not interested, sorry.

 

[dalamb]

"My" leader needs to be creative for faster border pops, to help block off territory, and for faster production of culture-generating libraries and theatres. I'll be running Always Peace, but don't expect many others to do so. Possibilities for the other trait:

• Agg (Kublai Khan): not useful in Always Peace
• Cha: there doesn't seem to be one, unless my notes transcribed from the Sevopedia are wrong.
• Exp (Suryavarman II): improved health can mean a higher cap on city size, but that's a fairly indirect effect on culture rate, isn't it?
• Fin (Willem): more money to pay for maintenance of a large empire
• Imp (Catherine): faster REXing from cheap settlers
• Ind (Louis IV): faster wonders, but there are only 3 wonders needed in Sulla's strategies, and he doesn't think they're hard to get at the level he was playing at.
• Org (Zara Yaqob): less maintenance for a large empire, and faster
  production of courthouses (or Rathauses, which are even better).
• Phi (Pericles): faster production of Great Artists, whose culture bombs could prove useful.
• Pro (Gilgamesh): not useful in Always Peace
• Spi (Hatchepsut): cheap cuture-generating temples, but Sulla already used her.

I also want a civilization that starts with Mysticism; I'd likely want to pick one whose UB gives a nice benefit for the cultural domination strategy.. Hunting as a second starting tech gives the minor advantage of starting with a scout for faster exploration.

• Arabia: Madrassa (Library) gives +4 culture instead of +2; I can't judge the worth of being able to run 2 priests as well as 2 scientists.
• Byzantium: Hippodrome (Theatre) gives +1 culture per 5% slider, instead of per 10%.
• Celts: UB not useful in Always Peace. Hunting.
• Holy Rome: Rathaus gives a 75% reduction to maintenance instead of just 50%. plus Hunting.
• Inca: Terrace (Granary) gives +2 culture.
• Korea: Seowon (University) generates +35% beakers instead of +25%, but I can't judge how much that affects this strategy.
• Maya: Extra +2 happiness from Ball Court (Coloseum) raises happy cap, which can mean bigger cities sooner and possibly therefore more culture generation.

Aztec, India, and Spain have UBs tha are not much help for this strategy, unless there's lots of whipping (Sacraficial Altar). Some start with Hunting.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It takes a lot of editing to switch leaders onto the same map. If you just do it for the human's would be leader, it's not too bad. Switching out ALL opponents would be a bit much. In other words, we have to choose the AI leaders and civs carefully to meet so many requirements. I'm not saying it can't be done or that it won't be fun, just offering some guiding insight .

 

[dalamb]

@TMIT: do you mean there'd be a few leaders we would pick from, and a few others that were AI-only?

Is there a link I can follow to an explanation of how to do the appropriate editing (both for multiple leaders and for multiple difficulty levels).

 

[Soirana]

Culture domination... Sign me in.

Regarding leader:
Fin means more money from cottages which leads to more culture. IIRC, Sula cotaged quite a lot.

IMP - depends on difficulty level. I would not go lower than Monarch. Still getting some settlers early might be essesntial.

Byzantium: theatre without artist slots in culture game?

Personally i would advocate China. Pavillon is solid and mining is anyway necessary. Mining+Agri is probably best combo at least on Pangea. You can tech mysticism while making worker...

So Cathy of China is my proposal.

 

[dalamb]

Possibilities for the other, non-Cre leaders that people might find fun to play. Some of these are from the "unrestricted leader combo" thread but I've omitted Cre leaders and civilizations like the Inca with extra culture-generating UBs. Also, there are some proposals for Agg or Cha with an already-powerful UU like Praetorians or Oromos, which I didn't list; they'd be severely nerfed in my always peace game -- but maybe they'd be fun for other people to play?

• Rome (Fishing, Mining, Forum, Praetorian) with a Phi leader, such as Ghandi (Phi/Spi) or Alexander (Phi/Agg); the Forum would give a GPP boost.
• Someone organized with Zulu (Agriculture, Hunting, Ikhanda, Impi).
• Mansa (Spi/Fin) or another fast-teching type with Korea (Mysticism, Mining, Seowon, Hwacha) or Russia (Hunting, Mining, Research Institute, Cossack) -- UB are both late-game science boosters.
• Darius (Fin/Org) with HRE (Mysticism, Hunting, Rathaus, Landsknecht) for a super-economy.
• Churchill (Cha, Pro) of the Native Americans (Agriculture, Fishing, Totem Pole, Dog Warrior) for a crossbow rush, or of Mali (Mining, Wheel, Mint, Skirmisher) for skirmisher rush, or of China (Agriculture, Mining, Pavillion, Cho-Ko-Nu).
• Cyrus (Cha, Imp) of Mongolia (Hunting, Wheel, Ger, Kheshik) since those traits are "the only ones that help the mounted line."
• Frederick (Phi, Org) of Sumeria (Agriculture, Wheel, Ziggurat, Vulture) for the ultimate Espionage Economy -- Phi gets Great Spies faster, early (Priesthood) and faster (Org) courthouses to get spy specialists working. I might try this one myself after finishing a cultural domination game.
• Washington (Cha/Exp) of the Ottomans (Agriculture, Wheel, Hammam, Janissary). Cha/Exp with Hammam and Monument gives +4 happiness for larger early cities.
• Carthage (Fishing, Mining, Cothon, Numidian Cavalry) with Bismark (Exp, Ind), Mehmed (Exp, Org), or Roosevelt (Ind, Org) for a trade route economy.

Civs starting with Mysticism would make it a little harder for me personally, but if it meant a few more people wanted to play it could be worth it.

========================================================================
Possibilities for the other, non-Cre leaders that people might find fun to play. Some of these are from the "unrestricted leader combo" thread but I've omitted Cre leaders and civilizations like the Inca with extra culture-generating UBs.

• Rome (Fishing, Mining, Forum, Praetorian) with a Phi leader, such as Ghandi (Phi/Spi) or Alexander (Phi/Agg); the Forum would give a GPP boost.
• Someone organized with Zulu (Agriculture, Hunting, Ikhanda, Impi).
• Mansa (Spi/Fin) or another fast-teching type with Korea (Mysticism, Mining, Seowon, Hwacha) or Russia (Hunting, Mining, Research Institute, Cossack) -- UB are both late-game science boosters.
• Darius (Fin/Org) with HRE (Mysticism, Hunting, Rathaus, Landsknecht) for a super-economy.
• Churchill
  (Cha, Pro) of the Native Americans (Agriculture, Fishing, Totem Pole,
  Dog Warrior) for a crossbow rush, or of
  Mali
  (Mining, Wheel, Mint, Skirmisher) for skirmisher rush, or of China (Agriculture, Mining, Pavillion, Cho-Ko-Nu).
• Cyrus (Cha, Imp) of Mongolia (Hunting, Wheel, Ger, Kheshik) since those traits are "the only ones that help the mounted line."
• Frederick (Phi, Org) of Sumeria (Agriculture, Wheel, Ziggurat, Vulture) for the ultimate Espionage Economy -- Phi gets Great Spies faster, early (Priesthood) and faster (Org) courthouses to get spy specialists working. I might try this one myself after finishing a cultural domination game.
• Washington (Cha/Exp) of the Ottomans (Agriculture, Wheel, Hammam, Janissary). Cha/Exp with Hammam and Monument gives +4 happiness for larger early cities.
• Carthage (Fishing, Mining, Cothon, Numidian Cavalry) with Bismark (Exp, Ind), Mehmed (Exp, Org), or Roosevelt (Ind, Org) for a trade route economy.

Civs starting with Mysticism would make it a little harder for me personally, but if it meant a few more people wanted to play it could be worth it.

Let me know if there are other combinations that would be interesting; it would be neat to have several very different flavours, like the conquest-oriented vs the economic-oriented.

 

[UWHabs]

Asoka of the Aztecs could be interesting for a quick whip-heavy game (org to get faster sacrificial altars, spiritual to get in and out of slavery).

Ghandi of Mongolia, as a somewhat ironic choice?

Every game with unrestricted leaders needs Boudica of someone. Such a strong warring leader needs a game with a non-crappy UU and/or UB. Boudica of Sumeria for come crazy vultures? Boudica of England, for some nice Redcoat rampage?

 

[dalamb]

It occurred to me on rereading the original "combos" thread that there might be grounds for a whole "unrestricted leader" series featuring a single major leader each time. It would apparently involve a lot less editing -- just 3 WB saves, like Nobles' Club or Lonely Hearts Club. I guess the AI civs could mostly be left to chance?

Then maybe "my" game could be an oddball partway into the series rather than the one-shot I was originally contemplating.