Pyramids built by the blacks in Africa!

[Birdjaguar]

No, I said they were not capable according to what Egyptologists say they had for tools and such. They, or someone shortly before them, created the Pyramids - and did so with much more knowledge then we give them credit for. And who is this Bauvel guy people keep talking about?

Bauval originated the Orion theory about the pyramids among other tomfoolery. The site I linked to goes through the Bauval theory in very great detail and discusses why it is not true. You should read it. I would rather give the credit for the pyramids to the builders, 3rd millenium Egyptians, not to a made up people for whom there is not any hint of an archaeological record. Bauval info here:

http://www.doernenburg.alien.de/alt...ion/ori00_e.php

Wow, you really like to assume things. Just because evidence isn't found doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Did you really mean to say that? If there is no evidence for something why would you believe it actually happened? There is no current evidence of a pre Egyptian culture in the Nile valley other than hunter gatherers. And certainly none of a more advanced civilization. You want me to assume there was one so you can attribute the pyramids to them.

How you can try to justify such a remark over a period of thousands of years baffles me - because surely the evidence would be lost over that time, at least in it's majority.

Huh? Archaeology does an excellent job of finding remains of ancient cultures (interpretation is another matter). Egypt is excellent for preservation. There’s no significant rain, no volcanoes, no glaciers, only one river. If there had been an earlier advanced civ, and they had built the pyramids, how could nothing else be left? Create a scenario for me that puts your mysterious civ in a time and place and fleshes out what you think their culture was like based on the technology they used to build the pyramids. And then tell how all evidence of them would be destroyed. If you don’t want to post it, PM me with it.

What I do know is that it's likely the Egyptians or other race built them with technology and ideals far beyond what we give them credit for - not necessarily better then our own today. If you wish to deny the facts that stare you in the face & write off history as whatever propaganda you're fed, that's fine. I am merely pointing out flaws in the "accepted theory" that need to be given proper attention to - because they just might have something to say.

You have made a few statements about how advanced technology was used to build the pyramids, but you haven’t provided any actual references for it. Did you take photos of laser cut tunnels when you visited the GP? Can you reference a book? A web site? You haven’t answered questions about how your 50+ years to build them were calculated, or explained how someone can measure the placement precision of stones that are no longer there. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to do more than just state what you think is the truth. There is no mercy here for unfounded attempts to re-write history.

 

[Mark Young]

The Hamitic and Semitic peoples still had a common ancestral background, though.

At the time I am reffering to, the middle kingodm, there were distinct and had seperate languages.

@BirdJaguar
I read a book about a year ago (the name escapes me) that was also a documentary on TV, on how some ancient civilisations were much older then we previously thought.
2 of the examples that were given was the Giza pyramids and Angkor Watt.
The pyramids align with the constellation Orion and Angkor Wat aligns with the constellation Draco(?).
Now this Doco acknowledges the traditional dates that these 2 monuments (for want of a better word),were built. But it suggested that these, and other ancient monuments were built over the top of other buildings that were made by a much older civilisation.
The reason that he gave was that the way that the buildings of Angkor Watt and Angkor Thom were aligned with Draco could only have occured in about 15,000 bc(It may have been 150,000bc, I dont remember the exact date).
So even though the buildings themselves were much younger, there was some observation and construction at and before that time.

It was a really fascinationg documentary, escpecially if you like astronomy as well. It mentioned other buildings as well that are in South America that are aligned with respective constellations.

I'll have a hunt for it so I can be a bit more precise.

 

[sourboy]

Geez, I feel like I'm Ben Kenobi, you're Han Solo, Polymath is Chewbacca - and we're in that F'cked up bar!

Look, all I'm trying to do is give open minded people another reasonable option to think about. Personally, I think the Egyptians built the Pyramids, used tools better then the copper ones history credits them with (though not "advanced" compared to our tools), used these tools in a way different from our own - and effectively, for a purpose much greater then just that of a tomb!

Why do you keep posting a link debunking the theory of Aliens having a hand in the Pyramid builds when I am against such a thought in the first place?

Also, I am not putting down Archaeologists & their successful endeavors - I actually considered such a career in a time - but surely you can agree that most things are lost over time.

My purpose is not to convince you or any other critic of anything, because even I don't know for sure. What I do know is that history, like anything else in life, is full of flaws. With that, one must look at all possibilities with an open mind - and not just take the simple answer (like what religion tends to feed us).

I will supply resources soon (hopefully) as my book is currently lent out.

 

[Birdjaguar]

There are shafts that are in perfect laser-precise tunneling and exact alignment with the star Sirius & with Orion's belt.

This is from an earlier post you made. Bauval first published this theory. If you don’t know of him, then you are pushing his ideas second hand. His theory is a very broad and complex attempt to show that the Egyptians did not build the pyramids. He attempts to provide proof for the theory in his books. The site I linked to takes on all Bauval’s points one by one and answers them. What is your reference/support for a perfect alignment of the pyramids to Orion’s belt?

Geez, I feel like I'm Ben Kenobi, you're Han Solo, Polymath is Chewbacca - and we're in that F'cked up bar!

Yes, it was a great bar.

Look, all I'm trying to do is give open minded people another reasonable option to think about. Personally, I think the Egyptians built the Pyramids, used tools better then the copper ones history credits them with (though not "advanced" compared to our tools), used these tools in a way different from our own - and effectively, for a purpose much greater then just that of a tomb!

Without evidence your option is not reasonable. If the Egyptians used something other than copper tools, where are they? Why can’t we find even one? We have found hundreds stone cutting tools used by hominids over a 500,000 years ago. Why can’t we find a single tool from your vision of pyramid construction? Why does the GP have to be more than a tomb? The structure itself is impressive enough, it doesn’t need embelishement.

but surely you can agree that most things are lost over time.

“Most” stuff is lost, but we have found tons an tons of stuff even from prehistoric peoples. Significant cultures do not disappear completely. European megalith cultures are still pretty mysterious, but we know they existed. 90% of museums’ collections are not on display!!

What I do know is that history, like anything else in life, is full of flaws. With that, one must look at all possibilities with an open mind - and not just take the simple answer (like what religion tends to feed us).

The current dogma on Egypt is not the easy answer. It has been questioned and argued about for hundreds of year by scholars and archaeologists many of whom had no clue about what they were talking about. Nobody handed us a ”gospel of Egyptian History” that everyone believes. It is still debated today. There are plenty of open minds here, but we are not foolish enough to accept unsupported statements with a shady pedigree. I look forward to your references. Title and/or author are sufficient. Just post that, you don’t need to wait for the book to be returned.

 

[Birdjaguar]

@Sir eric: it is late here and I have work tomorrow. I will respond to your post Friday evening. In the meantime, some of what I have told Sourboy also applies to your post.

 

[carlosMM]

i know nothing abot this so i could be wrong. But didn't they try to send a robot down a unexplored shaft?

a shaft in a pyramid!

it is quite easy to put stones together in amanner that leaves a shaft betwen them that is only 2 inches wide...

 

[carlosMM]

Polishing was not used back then, thus it is unfair to compare them. The 1 cm thing is ballpark to what the Pyramid reflects. I still am trying to get my book back for accurate numbers, but the reader won't put it down...

so you acknowlegde that our industrial standards are even above what was used back then?

As far as easily, no. Can it be done with hard work? Yes.
I'm still checking on the shafts thing. I could be thinking of the one that the German scientist (forget the name off hand) sent a robot into. Either way, the point I was making was how did they make it so precise without the ability to get in there and have sufficient room to work, let alone bring proper lighting, etc?

it is quit easy to make precise huge blocks of stone. A perfectly level surface can be achieved thus:
immers the block in water up to the surface you want level. Chip away the stone that is above the water.
Now rotate the block onto that side. Repeat.
Now rotate it 90°s (right angles are easy to cosntruct, ancient egypitans knew how to measure them)
rinse and repeat the above

Now you have aperfectly rectangular block.
Make several, measure them.


Now, how hard is it to dot he math to emplace them so that they leave a narrow shaft in the middle?
IIRC, the photographs showed distinct edges of the stones in the shaft - so nobody was in there 'polishing' them away like on Greek Temple columns.

 

[carlosMM]

Yes, polishing was used - but to polish every stone in the Pyramid is a huge undertaking - especially when polished to such a fine degree of precision.

why EVERY stone?
just all those visible from the outside....

 

[carlosMM]

used tools better then the copper ones history credits them with (though not "advanced" compared to our tools), used these tools in a way different from our own - and effectively, for a purpose much greater then just that of a tomb!

a) stone tools are often better than bronze ones.
b) what greater? If you have some knowledge of Egyptian culture, why do you consider any purpose greater than the pharaos tomb?

 

[Pangur Bán]

This thread is silly

I'm glad it's not in the history forum too.

 

[HamaticBabylon]

In 1898, a peculiar six-inch wooden object was found in a tomb at Saqquara, Egypt that dated back to about 200 BCE. The object had a body or fuselage, seven-inch wings that curved downward slightly, a fixed rudder and a tail. It looked very much like a modern airplane or glider. But since airplanes had not yet been invented in 1898 (never mind ancient Egypt), it was labeled as a model of bird and stored away in the basement of the Cairo museum.

The object was rediscovered many years later by Dr. Khalil Messiha, an authority on ancient models. According to Messiha and others who have studied the object, it has characteristics of very advanced aerodynamics, much like modern pusher-gliders that require very little power to stay aloft. The curved wings are today known as reversedihedral wings, which can attain great amounts of lift. A similar design is employed on the supersonic Concorde aircraft.

Was this just a child's toy? Or was it a scale model of an aircraft the Egyptians planned to build... or did build. If they did build a full-scale version of the aircraft, no evidence exists for it. No full-size airplanes have been found in any pharaoh's tomb to fly him to the land of the dead.

Again Even more controversial than the model airplane are the enigmatic carvings found in the temple of Abydos (2300 B.C), One bears a striking resemblance to a modern helicopter, while others could be interpreted as aircraft and hovercraft.

The official take from archaeologists is that the strange carvings are palimpsests - the result of two or more overlapping carvings that combine to look like something else. The "aircraft," they say, are merely combinations of overlapping hieroglyphics.

Ok if this craving is only an overlapping of hieroglyphics, then that does not make sence. If you look at the Hieroglyphically language you will see that it is made up of pictures. Now these pictures are physical representation of the real thing i.e. a bird will look like a bird on hieroglyphics, a hand will look like a hand on hieroglyphics. So these pictures found in Abydos, are exactly showing what we see, modern helicopter, aircraft and hovercraft.


Why does this knowledge of the Africans have to be hidden? Why do people get angry if you mention that Africans back in the days of Egypt had advance Technology? Why is it that the "whites" are not in history until 1000 B.C? So how was in history since the dorn of time? How is it that they have wiped out the historical records of the Africans, and claim it to be theres? Does anyone remember the Aswan Dam? A whole city was flooded and covered up, after it was built.The city had many evidences of African technology, but was deliberately covered up to hide the African scientific achievements!

There were kings and queens in Africa long before the white man ever existed!

 

[CurtSibling]

I have my tinfoil hat on!

That engraving is pure silliness. Sorry!
No Egyptian glyphs were ever anything like that!

 

[Amenhotep7]

The object was rediscovered many years later by Dr. Khalil Messiha, an authority on ancient models. According to Messiha and others who have studied the object, it has characteristics of very advanced aerodynamics, much like modern pusher-gliders that require very little power to stay aloft. The curved wings are today known as reversedihedral wings, which can attain great amounts of lift. A similar design is employed on the supersonic Concorde aircraft.

Was this just a child's toy? Or was it a scale model of an aircraft the Egyptians planned to build... or did build. If they did build a full-scale version of the aircraft, no evidence exists for it. No full-size airplanes have been found in any pharaoh's tomb to fly him to the land of the dead.

So? Archimdes (or one of his students ) built the equivalent of a steam engine, but it was only used as an amusement. The same principle could be applied here. It's not surprising if the Egyptians happened to stumble upon various properties of flight, and then used as child's play-things.

By your logic, we should have hit the Industrial Revolution c. The First Punic War.

Again Even more controversial than the model airplane are the enigmatic carvings found in the temple of Abydos (2300 B.C), One bears a striking resemblance to a modern helicopter, while others could be interpreted as aircraft and hovercraft.

It is an overlapping of hieroglyphs, or a scribe made a big mistake. We haven't seen these glyphs elsewhere, ergo, we can only assume these hieroglyphs are a mistake.

Why does this knowledge of the Africans have to be hidden? Why do people get angry if you mention that Africans back in the days of Egypt had advance Technology? Why is it that the "whites" are not in history until 1000 B.C? So how was in history since the dorn of time? How is it that they have wiped out the historical records of the Africans, and claim it to be theres? Does anyone remember the Aswan Dam? A whole city was flooded and covered up, after it was built.The city had many evidences of African technology, but was deliberately covered up to hide the African scientific achievements!

Why does this knowledge of Africans have to be hidden? Well, for one, you can't PROVE they had such technology. The Egyptians were inhabited by people who look like Arabs, and in Nubia there were black people. Simple as that. All genetic analysis has proven this.
Actually, "whites" appeared LONG ago. Blacks were first by a LONG shot, I'll grant you that. But ever heard of the neanderthals? They were white. The first civilized whites I can think of off the top of my head were the Minoans, who first appeared in 6000 BC. Nobody said that whites were here from the dawn of time.
White people DID NOT destroy black records. They wouldn't have a reason. In ancient times there was no concept of racial superiority. And besides, NO ANCIENT PEOPLE would be capable of genocide, or capable of destroying all those records.

It seems to me that you are a black african man who just happens to think that anything that is said by a white man, even if it is CONCLUSIVE research, is racist/imperialist. I am white, and have nothing against you. I am a very multiracial person, and hate racists. But you are being highly illogical, and flame instead of debate, even though YOU brought this upon YOURSELF.

 

[Tassadar]

I am very surprise that nobody mention the geopolymer theory, i have talk about this in a previous thread about pyramid ( a few month ago), so let the expert talk,

Quote,

I will demonstrate that the pyramid blocks are actually exceptionally high-quality limestone concrete -- synthetic stone -- cast directly in place. The blocks consist of about ninety to ninety-five percent limestone rubble and five to ten percent cement. They are imitations of natural limestone, made in the age-old tradition of alchemical stonemaking. No stone cutting or heavy hauling or hoisting was ever required for pyramid construction. [p. 68]

The blocks were not quarried but rather made of a geopolymeric cement. Limestone blocks did not have to be cut, finished, or even moved at all. Instead, buckets of slurry were simply toted up the pyramid by men who poured it into a wooden mold. Davidovits writes:


One of the characteristics of geopolymeric concrete is that there is no appreciable shrinkage, and blocks do not fuse when cast directly against each other. Although it would have been impossible to achieve the close fit (as close as 0.002 inch) of the 115,000 casing stones originally on the Great Pyramid with primitive tools, such joints are easily achieved when casting geopolymeric concrete. Once cast, within hours or even less, depending on the formula (minutes using today's formula), a block hardened. The mold was removed for reuse while a block was still relatively soft. [p. 75]


link for much more detail:http://www.catchpenny.org/theories.html

And,

The Great Pyramid of Egypt, one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, may have been at least partially constructed with man-made concrete.
"Edward Zeller, cirector of the radiation physics laboratory at Univ. of Kansas Space Technology Center, Law rence, recently examined a stone sample, taken from a pyramid passageway, under a binocular microscope and discovered that it was filled with oval air bubbles, 'like you'd expect to see in plaster,' he says.

"The finding supports a theory proposed by French geochemist Joseph Davidovits, who says Egyptians built the pyramids by pouring concrete into forms. Such technology was not thought to have existed during the construction of the pyramids around 2690 BC.

link:http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf074/sf074a02.htm

 

[Pangur Bán]

I don't get why people think Egypt is in Sub-Saharan Africa...it isn't!!!

It's in the Middle East. Egyptians are middle-eastern: not black Africans.

Anyways...it's quite obvious that the builders of the pyramids were not human. Obviously, they were aliens of some kind, probably the same ones who build the colosseum and passed on the secrets of nuclear technology to the American govt.

Oh yeah, I opened a New Poll on the topic in general.

 

[polymath]

at Hamatic's diagram of the 'plane'!

Here's the actual toy bird, notice that it doesn't have a tailplane at all.

Take a look at http://www.catchpenny.org/model.html for a debunking of this silliness.

Also more of the same debunking at http://www.catchpenny.org/abydos.html:

Hamatic, where are you getting these daft ideas from?

 

[CurtSibling]

Religionist and tinfoil hat websites have much to answer for!

 

[Tassadar]

tinfoil hat websites have much to answer for!

I hope you wernt targeting the geopolymer theory, this site is far from beeing a ''tinfoil hat website"


Scientific evidence of the geopolymer theory:http://www.geopolymer.org/archaeo.html

A small extract,

The carving and hoisting theory indeed raises questions that have been insufficiently answered. Using stone and copper tools, how did workers manage to make the pyramid faces absolutely flat? How did they make the faces meet at a perfect point at the summit? How did they make the tiers so level? How could the required amount of workers maneuver on the building site? How did they make the blocks so uniform? How were some of the heaviest blocks in the pyramid placed at great heights? How were twenty-two acres of casing blocks all made to fit to a hair’s breadth and closer? How was all of the work done in about twenty years? Experts can only guess. And Egyptologists must admit that the problems have not been resolved.

Theories of construction are many and continue to be invented. All are based on carving and hoisting natural stone, and none solves the irreconcilable problems. The casting and packing agglomerated stone theory instantly dissolves the majority of the logistical and other problems.

 

[betazed]

Yikes, I wrote a long reply to DP in the other thread and found it to be closed. hence I post it here.

The remarks I made there are still valid. So this is not really offtopic.
------------------------------------

Betazed, no evidence at all Im afraid. Merely a firm belief that there were vastly older human civilizations, long before our current one began a mere 6000 years ago, that have been lost in time and forgotten. I think these civilizations were much smaller than ours, not global and spacefaring. They were therefore more vulnerable to being wiped out by drastic climate change at the onset and ending of the Ice Ages.

The reason that I doubt that is because we have found archeological evidence of lots of small civs or rather people. People who lived in small desolate islands, people who lived in mountain faces etc. any civ which was even slightly big left tons of archeological proof. The only way the proof can vanish or be hidden is if they get submerged. But we know geologically speaking north africa has not been submerged for billions of years. So I cannot think how a civ could have existed there for a time long enough to acquire the technology and the societal complexity and numbers and not leave significant archelogical evidence.

Now, you might say there is evidence, which we are now just saying belongs to egyptians. Maybe much of the artifacts found there is not from egyptians but from someone earlier. But that is easily determined thru radiocarbon dating. I am sure such dating has been done on the egyptian artifcacts? Hasn't it? {If not and if they come up with numbers more than 6-10,000 years then I will seriously start believing in alternate theories. }

Actually I think theres plenty of evidence around us of those past civilizations, but we naturally assume they belong to ours. People see what they expect to see, even scientists.

See above.

It seems inconcievable to me that humans have been on this planet for 100 or 200,000 years, and ours is the first advanced civilization to arise.

Not inconcievable at all. Because of three reasons.

One, Remember the rising of civilization that you talk about is really a "evolutionary quirk" what Gould will call a "exaptation". It is not necessary at all for survival. There is no evolutionary advantage for the individual who starts thinking about machines and crops in the first place unless he actually manages to channell that into more offsprings. And I am sure the first guy who looked up at the stars and wondered what they are (and hence started the line of exploration and advancement of civilization) did not manage to have more kids because of that.

Secondly, for civilization as we know it to start you need to have an excess of food production. For most of human history as we evolved over the hundreds of thousands of years that you talk about we were in southern africa on the grasslands. There is not a single crop there that we could have domesticated that could have given rise to agriculture. So if we had not crossed the Sahara before it became the Sahara it is probable that still today we would have been picking trees and hunting and gathering.

lastly, it has been found that humans can live for thousands of years, grow in large numbers and still not attain technology or societal complexity. In fact they can go backward and forget what they knew. The aborigines of Australia when they were first discovered by modern man are an example. using population Genetics it has been shown they travelled thru Asia, down southeast asia and then colonized Australia. By that time they possibly knew how to make spears, make nets, possibly agriculture. But when we found them recently, they did not even know how to make fire.

All that makes me think that we are actually a weird aberration in our globe spanning technology and reach and may not be the rule at all.

On another thought, Could this also be an answer to Fermi's paradox? Never thought about that one. More

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Copied from the now closed thread:

Originally Posted by Tassadar
Very simple; Egyptian mason using geopolymer as concrete, i already give the link in the other thread.

and i have already talk about this theory in an old thread, my dear disciple, Dump Pothead should have defended this geopolymer theory, bad boy DP I was hoping that at least 1 member would have convert

Tassadar, the concrete theory is interesting, but I was under the impression that they know where the stones were quarried from. Also, if the Egyptians had invented such a durable form of concrete, wouldnt they have used it in other applications, and not just for pyramids?