Pyramids or Parthenon or Oracle?

[bancki]

Well I always try to get them all , but if I have to chose I would take Pyraminds. You will get GE which is pretty good building other wonders.

 

[Taelis]

The problem with great engineers is that there are so few wonders worth more than an academy (are there any at all?).

A well developed science city can easily generate 80 commerce per turn, so an academy is worth 40 beakers/turn.

My favorite wonder, The Statue of Liberty, needs 2 engineers to rush. You'd need 9 cities with representation, libraries, and universities to equal the science benefit of two academies. (1 free scientist in each city = 6 beakers + 50% = 9 beakers * 9 cities = 81 beakers/turn).

But I'm usually running US, so I'd need 18 cities.

 

[dh_epic]

I can see how that would be advantageous, but you'd have to be very lucky to get that far and build the Oracle before someone else builds it earlier. Bureaucracy and Machinery are after Code of Laws and Metal Casting, respectively, and Feudalism requires both Monarchy and Writing. If you went straight for those techs and actually managed to get them before another leader builds the Oracle, you wouldn't even have the Alphabet yet to trade for all the things you skipped, and you'd lose out a lot of time for building worker improvements without agriculture, the wheel, pottery, husbandry...etc. I'd have to try that to see if it actually works, but I'm pretty skeptical

The biggest risk with this strategy (at least up until monarch) has very little to do with being outrun by another Oracle builder. The risk usually comes from the fact that you have to ignore archery, or bronzeworking, or both. This makes you hugely vulnerable to barbarians -- they often get archers before you do.

Being without a few key worker techs isn't so bad, since you can be an economic powerhouse in Civ 4 without having a huge empire. Without worker techs early on, it just means you need to expand much slower.

It makes you VERY vulnerable early on. But hopefully some of the cultural and diplomatic bonuses of religion also improve your protection.

I've done it multiple times. It's possible, at least against the AI.


What someone else said was true, though. Sometimes I dodge all of these wonders, and if I'm on the metals branch I go for the Colossus. Great Merchants are a MUST to wage a snap war (with a quick upgrade). And the Great Library on the upper branch might be THE best wonder in the game, if not top three.

 

[Shillen]

My favorite wonder, The Statue of Liberty, needs 2 engineers to rush. You'd need 9 cities with representation, libraries, and universities to equal the science benefit of two academies. (1 free scientist in each city = 6 beakers + 50% = 9 beakers * 9 cities = 81 beakers/turn).

I'm not sure how you calculated that. The science benefit of an academy is variable based on the city.

But regardless I generally do have 9 cities with a library+university in my games. Then there are also observatories and monasteries.

And you're also neglecting the GPP's you get from the specialists. Sure it won't matter for most of your cities but the cities that are generating great people will generate them faster.

And also I would not use 2 engineers to rush this, that's a waste. Use one of them to get it mostly done then finish building it.

Not saying academies aren't good, they're awesome. But great scientists have nothing to do with this thread anyway as none of these wonders generate great scientist points. Compare the usefulness of engineers to artists or prophets instead.

 

[Taelis]

I was just working with some reasonable averages to calculate the relative value of the wonder vs. an academy. And I compared engineers to scientists because that's how it works out for me. I always plan to get a single great prophet from the Oracle first, for a shrine. And lately I've been grabbing a second prophet to discover theology. After that it's not difficult to force almost exclusively scientists.

If you have even 5 cities with a library+university, and want to run representation, and use one engineer to almost guarantee construction of the Statue of Liberty, it's worth it. But you don't have to build the Pyramids to get a single great engineer by Democracy, and that plan sacrifices both liberalism and guilds on higher difficulties.

If I could get the Pyramids after the Oracle on immortal, of course I'd build them. But this thread assumes you can only get one (mostly true on immortal), and I wouldn't trade a free tech, a shrine, and 300 hammers for representation and a second free early wonder.

With those extra 300 hammers I could build a second wonder, anyway.

 

[Adonias]

I wish I had the piramids for universal sufrage in my last game. I built stonhenge, and the oracle, and with that I got hinduism, confusionism and taoism, and the 3 big temples from the profets. By 0AD I had 4000 gold... but nothing to spend it on other than buying of invading enemies

(this was on monarch by the way)

 

[Unserfritz]

I prefer to play a philosophical civ and go for the oracle to grab metal casting. Once the oracle is complete, production switches to the forge and my workers start to chop down trees to speed build the forge. One of my citizens is then converted to an engineer. With this strategy it is not uncommon to build most or all of the early wonders (on emperor) as you have an early reservoir of great engineers. Usually I pick up the pyramids with my first engineer. Subsequent engineers build wonders in other cities. Engineering wonders stay in the pyramids city to maximize Engineer GP production.

 

[mother superior]

Romans love the Oracle if there is iron around. Early Praetorians can be a game breaker

 

[Patricius]

In answer to the thread starter, I say take two of them!

I start Pyramids as soon as I can and basically cut down every forest in the city radius to get it. It only takes about 15 or less turns to get it by doing this. Then I play normally and I usually get a Great Engineer pretty soon. As soon as I get one I rush parthenon and I am pretty set for most of the early game with Great Engineers and can get quite a few of the Wonders.

Anyway, basically I say why take one when you can get two? And the only feasible way I see to do that is to get Pyramids and the subsequent Engineer. Of course Representation is nice too.

Patricius

 

[Dairuka]

I'm still waiting to get the damned game - playing 100 turn demos is getting old. But What strikes me about these threads is the diversity of opinions, and obviously diversity of strategies. It seems very healthy. Don't remember this so much with CIV III - there was usually a concensus on the best strategies.

Trust me Lewsir. You will LOVE Civ 4 for the exact reasons that you mentioned.

There is no sound strategy that will win every game for you every time. The only sound strategy is to adapt to your situation, and follow tried and true methods to help elevate you above your neighbors and enemies.

I call them, "Methods", because they're not strategies, but mini-strategies, something which you can use at any time, but in some cases can actually hurt you.

For instance: Using Caste System + Mercantilism + Representation + Sistine Chapel, can actually hurt you, if you have open borders with 12 other civilizations, and a flourishing religion. It's a great method, but in some cases, it just will not work.

 

[alexti2]

The answer is easy:

It depends.

Philosophical civilizations are in the best shape to take advantage of the Parthenon. Philosophical plus Parthenon plus Pacifism plus National Epic is something fearsome. (Expansionists can sometimes take advantage of this because the health affords them good food. Otherwise, anyone with lots of food resources around.)

I'm not so sure... If the normal birth rate is 1, then for Philosophical, it goes from 2 to 2.5 with Parthenon. But for non-Philosophical it goes from 1 to 1.5. That means with fixed GP generators everybody have 0.5*GPGen increase. However the cost of GP grows linearly with number of GPs, and Philosophical have more GPs because of their +100%. That means that Parthenon actually brings more extra great persons per turn to non-Philosophical nations than to Philosophical

Spiritual civilizations are usually in the best shape to take advantage of the Oracle. Why? Because they tend to have mysticism (except Huayna Capac). This gives them a head start on all the other civilizations, and those additional seven turns can be crucial. If you only see the Oracle as something that gets you Code of Laws/Theocracy/Metal Casting, you're not using it to its full potential. A proper beeline can score you Bureaucracy/Feudalism/Machinery, which will make you king of the world from 1000 BC to 1000 AD at least. (Industrious civs can do a decent job of going for this strategy too. Otherwise, anyone with marble or a good tech lead.)

Up to what level would it work? AI build Oracle pretty fast. And research even faster. I'd say that the only chance to get Oracle on Deity is to rush to Priesthood and build Oracle ASAP which means you won't have big choice of techs after researching whatever you can while Oracle is being constructed

Organized civilizations are usually in the best shape to take advantage of the Pyramids. Why? Because a half cost Police State that early on can be something potent. Organized tends to be a slightly weak trait, only kicking in after you really need it. But the Pyramids can be the equalizer if used properly.

Pyramids are particularly beneficial for expansionist, because their population grows faster and they suffer more from a happiness cap.

 

[dh_epic]

At deity, I'm not building wonders at all. I'm building horse archers.

But all in all, the benefit of a great person heavy strategy is quite powerful with philosophical. Yes, you can pursue one without it, but with philosophical it's that much more powerful. In my experience, it's always better to play to your civilization's strengths than to try to focus on covering up your weaknesses.

 

[Jonny211]

I've just tried making the beeline for the Pyramids but because it took ages to build even with a major chop-rush and I wish I'd gone for the Oracle>Metal Casting instead. By the time my Great Engineer had been born all the other early wonders had been completed, are you sure it's worth it?

Representation seems like an advantage early on but I think I'd be better off with a cheaper wonder like the Parthenon, then wait for metal casting and plop an engineer specialist into the city to hurry a Great Engineer, sure the GE would arrive slightly later. Plus it would be good to spend the extra time/hammers on a few buildings such as Granaries & Libraries to speed growth... and a few more Axemen to trouble the neighbours.

BTW I'm not much of an expert and I play on Monarch, still to get a win though (AI get's a Space Victory every time).

Jon

 

[flytyer]

I love going for the Oracle to be able to found a religion. Early on, I am researching archery, bronze working, etc for my military and let the AI found the early religions. I usualy get theology or code of laws once the Oracle is complete.

 

[Ungar]

You still want access to a stone quarry if you choose to rush Stonehenge and/or Pyramids.

Stonehenge is 120 hammers
Pyramids is 450 hammers

Each forest chop is usually 30 hammers, but if you have access to stone each forest chop is worth 60 hammers for building these two wonders.

On Diety I was able to rush Stonehenge in one city using one worker to chop down just one forest.

I had to chop down around five other forests using two workers to rush Pyramids in another city.

Pyramids is easy to beeline to because you need Masonry to build it. Masonry also allows you to build stone quarries to speed up Pyramid Production.

The problem with Oracle and Parthenon is that you need marble to speed up production which means you need Masonry anyways to build marble quarries.

 

[Oggums]

You still want access to a stone quarry if you choose to rush Stonehenge and/or Pyramids.

Stonehenge is 120 hammers
Pyramids is 450 hammers

Each forest chop is usually 30 hammers, but if you have access to stone each forest chop is worth 60 hammers for building these two wonders.

On Diety I was able to rush Stonehenge in one city using one worker to chop down just one forest.

I had to chop down around five other forests using two workers to rush Pyramids in another city.

Pyramids is easy to beeline to because you need Masonry to build it. Masonry also allows you to build stone quarries to speed up Pyramid Production.

The problem with Oracle and Parthenon is that you need marble to speed up production which means you need Masonry anyways to build marble quarries.

Stonehenge is likely to be built before you even get stone hooked up, unless you are lucky enough to have it right next to your capital. Even with stone close, I'd rather just chop Stonehenge before I even research Masonry, since after bronze working and mysticism, I usually want a couple other worker techs first and would rather settle and hook up copper over stone.

You don't need Masonry for Oracle, it's also a relatively cheap wonder, and you can chop it out sooner if you don't spend the research + turns to hook up Marble.

 

[alexti2]

At deity, I'm not building wonders at all. I'm building horse archers.

Assuming you got horses... And if you're alone on the island horse archers won't do much good anyway. I was trying to develop some winning archipelago strategy, but it seems to be hard and every promising strategy seems to involve wonders. I've never managed to do early rush in this case. It seems that by the time you get sailing and some tech for strong early units, and by the time you build enough units and galleys, AIs are so far ahead that your military can do little. So far I had only 3 moderately successful directions:
1) Industrious+ (probably financial is optimal). Usual start ([workboat]worker, bronze workng, build 1-2 settlers and do Pyramids quickly with chop-rush while those settlers build new city. Get sailing, build lighthouse and chop-rush for Great Lighthouse. Strangely enough this seems to work (I did it in all 3 attempts I made) - apparently AI is not in a hurry to build those wonders. Keep populating nearby islands concentating and grabbing resources and creating cities with fast growth. At some points it brings reasearch nearly to zero, but as the city growth you can catch-up. Those extra trade routes keep you surviving despite the maintenance costs. After the empire has grown a bit, you're not too far behind AI to conduct successful war sometime after 1000AD. At first I was trying to build enough military to discourage AI from attacking me, but lately I've discovered that it's better to build plenty of galleys and let them attack you. Sinking their galleys with all their superior troops works well and AI doesn't seem to know what to do about that.
2) Financial + something. Key is Great Lighthouse and, if possible, Colossus. I build just 3 cities early on and keep researching something AI don't. Later build few more cities for temples. After liberalism and printing press switch to 90%-100% culture. I can get cultural conditions in late 1800s - early 1900s, but every time AI got space victory few turns earlier.
3) Philosophical + Financial. Here idea is to produce a lot of GP, particularly artists and make them join your cities for the culture bonus. Otherwise, the strategy is either similar to 2) (some variant includes Parthenon) or rush-research Polytheism-Monotheism-Theology to found few religion (this seems to work in sense of getting religion, but it didn't get me cultural win any earlier). This strategy may include Oracle (not reliably though)
Obviously, 2) and 3) don't imply any serious wars, because if you plan on war (1) is better than 2) or 3).

 

[cleverhandle]

@Taelis: Have you carefully played out a Pyramids/Representation game, or are you purely theorizing? That's a genuine question, and not a jab in any way. While I wholly agree with your mathematics, I also just finished my first game building the Pyramids (Monarch, Gandhi, launched in 1954) and I was stunned at how strong the effect was in practice. The snowball effect of Pyramids->Engineer->GLib->Scientist->Academy->National Epic is enormous. With an empire of only 7 cities (2 founded post-Astronomy) I dominated tech the entire game, despite having Mansa Musa and Huayna Capac in the game with large and powerful empires of their own. The tech edge (along with the Bureaucracy production bonus) got me a lead on wonders, and that along with the specialists generated about 20 GP's over the course of the game.

I understand also that you're playing on Immortal and that that certainly isn't the same as Monarch. I'm only saying that the practical effect of the Pyramids was much, much larger than I expected.

 

[dh_epic]

In my experience, archipelago-deity is near impossible. ... unless you get lucky and the AI is on crappy islands and you're on a large mass... or you're playing against a few opponents.

Again, at the highest levels, it's much more important you choke the AI. You can't defeat the AI economically, so wonders are a bit of a waste. Military strategy is still the one thing the player does better than the AI.

 

[Lanstro]

the pyramids-representation-great library-mercantilism-statue of liberty thing for me

if i happen to have marble and a town with a lot of trees around it i go for the oracle for metal casting, but otherwise no

the panthaneon is i think easily the weakest one