Pyramids overpowered

[TomOC]

I don't think they are overpowered. Sure, representation is a great boost and all that; but they take a long time to make - you could have made a few more cities instead. I only go for pyrimids under ideal cirumstances (stone, a city with good productivity, no immediate threats, no other pressing priorities, etc.)

I already expanded as much as possible without going to war. I Had good relations with my bordering nations (just went to war and took 2 easily).

And I feel the time it takes to build them is made up with the boost. And now I have a little more flexablity in my research (don't have to shoot for the government civics asap).

I will concede that you should have at least 5-6 good producing cities to make it worth the time. With only 2 to 4 cities, you would not get enough of an effect of the representation civic to make it worth it. I have 8 cities (6 of my own, 2 conquered after building the Pyramids). You have to plan to build the Pyramids, but I don't find it too difficult.

I was behind in research and only had enough of a military to defend myself before I started to build it, then after building it... got 3 engineers to build other wonders, and now I am ahead of all the other civs in techs except one, whom I plan to attack with the military I can now build at great speed. I think any single wonder that pulls you out of a hole as deep as I was in, is overpowered... like the Great Library of Civ III.

 

[Jimbo30]

Ok Representation just isn't that good. The happiness factor is equal to having 3 archers in each of your largest 6 cities under Hereditary Rule. Hereditary Rule is not difficult to research, and going for it also lets you work wineries (and you can trade it).

The Pyramids cost 450 hammers, 18 archers cost...450 hammers. Sure you can speed it up if you're Industrious but that's a civ specific trait. Stone also, but that's a resource that anyone can have.

On top of the happiness factor is the not brilliant +3 beakers per specialist. It's ok, but it's hardly earth shattering stuff.

It's a tradeoff. If I was playing an aggressive civ I'd rather have 18 archers than have the pyramids built. A spiritual civ will probably already have 2 happiness from a religion being present (possibly more) and some more cash. The Pyramids are there to help Industrious civs. If you can build them with spiritual/aggressive civs (Aztecs only I think) then you've been lucky or you should probably start playing at a higher level. I once missed out building them as the French, with access to stone on Prince level. That entire game went nowhere because I had hardly any military and no religions.

I completely fail to see how the Pyramids can be called overpowered.

 

[CyberChrist]

@Jimbo30:
I completely disagree, I rarely use anything but the Representation government civic. Although I do occasionally switch to Universal Suffrage to rush a few things.

A warmonger would of course be getting Pyramids to be able to switch to Police State for the 25% increase in unit production and reduced WW.

Hereditary Rule is by far the most useless of the government civics imho.

 

[Iserp]

I dont think it is overpowered, but it is one of the good marvels. If I make the pyramids i dont spend my time researching hereditary rule, get points of great engineer, go for representation (an small boost for science and an improvement for your best cities). In the other hand is quite risky to do it, sometimes you'll just miss it, and it is really expensive. Last time I missed it, but in the end i won (emperor level).
BTW, i use representation as long as possible, I only switched to univ. suffrage when i wanted to make the space elevator, and my only city in the ecuador was very bad in production.

 

[Jimbo30]

@Jimbo30:
I completely disagree, I rarely use anything but the Representation government civic.

Anytime I build the Pyramids, I use Representation. It's the only viable choice. I am merely arguing how 'good' it actually is. If I miss out on the Pyramids and don't have a religion I go for Monarchy so my cities can grow beyond size 5. This is just basic stuff that practically everyone will do.

Although I do occasionally switch to Universal Suffrage to rush a few things.

I can't for the life of me think how you can afford to rush things with cash until pretty late in the game (at which stage you'd have Universal Suffrage anyway).

A warmonger would of course be getting Pyramids to be able to switch to Police State for the 25% increase in unit production and reduced WW.

This is a very risky tactic. An Industrious Warmonger with Stone might well pull it off. Otherwise they've just spent 30 turns without building military units at their best production city. That could be between 10-15 horse archers.

Hereditary Rule is by far the most useless of the government civics imho.

If you don't have a religion, and don't build the pyramids, it's practically the only way to make your cities grow to size 10+ fairly early in the game. You would rarely choose it before Representation if you built the pyramids, but that's a given.

The point is...just how good is Representation really? So good that the Pyramids are overpowered? It just doesn't add up from where I'm standing.

 

[CyberChrist]

I can't for the life of me think how you can afford to rush things with cash until pretty late in the game (at which stage you'd have Universal Suffrage anyway).

I rarely have a cash flow problem. Stonehenge + Pyramids = many early Great Prophets and Engineers which when added to Capitol along with Representation allows me to race ahead in techs to grab most of the Religions and later Prophets ensures cash flow from Holy Cities.

In any case rushing new units is a lot cheaper than upgrading old ones (very unbalanced imho btw).

The point is...just how good is Representation really? So good that the Pyramids are overpowered? It just doesn't add up from where I'm standing.

I consider Pyramids to be overpowered not so much because it gives you Representation, but rather because it gives you the entire range of Government Civics to choose from. Which surely you must agree is illogical even if you don't think it is overpowered.

I still think Pyramids should instead offer a more fitting civic spread consisting of Hereditary Rule, Serfdom and Organized Religion.

 

[Instant_Cereal]

I never saw it that way. Granaries allowed much faster expansion of cities in Civ II, and having pyramids meant you could expand faster without worrying about building the granaries in each city. The pyramids was one of my favourate wonders in Civ II as it is now with Civ IV.

They were useless. Many times I got up to the point of having gunpowder and still never built any. They were completely unessential.

 

[TomOC]

The point is...just how good is Representation really? So good that the Pyramids are overpowered? It just doesn't add up from where I'm standing.

The point is that you get it so much earlier than the other civs. By the time the other civs get it, you have a good lead. That is what makes it overpowered.

I still think Pyramids should instead offer a more fitting civic spread consisting of Hereditary Rule, Serfdom and Organized Religion.

I think this idea makes a lot more sense. A bonus without being overpowered. Maybe Hereditary Rule, Salvery, and Orginized Religion (seems to fit the building of the Pyramids more )

 

[Jimbo30]

The point is that you get it so much earlier than the other civs. By the time the other civs get it, you have a good lead. That is what makes it overpowered.

TomOC, I agree Representation is good but it's really just the same as having 3 archers in your top 6 cities under Hereditary Rule. I still can't figure out why this gives you a lead.

I think this idea makes a lot more sense. A bonus without being overpowered. Maybe Hereditary Rule, Salvery, and Orginized Religion (seems to fit the building of the Pyramids more )

Nobody would bother building the Pyramids with those choices. In most of my games, the Pyramids are built c.500 bc and I will definitely have Bronze Working and either Monotheism or Monarchy by then too.

 

[CyberChrist]

doh - double post

 

[CyberChrist]

In most of my games, the Pyramids are built c.500 bc and I will definitely have Bronze Working and either Monotheism or Monarchy by then too.

Serfdom which comes with Feudalism - not Bronze Working. Anyway the reason it is built late is because most people and the AI are going for settlers first.

Your playing style in choice of techs to go for first sounds very similar to that of the AIs - and they normally fall behind me by several ages.

 

[NinjaGnat]

All government civics isn't really that powerful early in the game. For representation, happiness can be gotten through many means, either hereditary rule or religions, and as your cities are still growing when you build them using too many specialists will hamper this. Police State is nice, but the military production gained is also lost during the period while you make the wonder, 225 hammers of guys is nothing to ignore. (Going for the pyramids without stone or industrious is just begging for trouble, when you know others are likely to have these things). They are a nice gimmick, but their greatest ability is earning great engineer points early in the game, which can also be accomplished through the oracle. (getting metal casting). If you de-powered the pyramids, nobody would waste their time building them.

 

[CyberChrist]

I see a theme here - all those saying Pyramids are nothing special are also those pumping out units early and because of that wondering how you can have any money to rush things before the late game.

 

[Jimbo30]

I see a theme here - all those saying Pyramids are nothing special are also those pumping out units early and because of that wondering how you can have any money to rush things before the late game.

I hardly ever pump out units, just enough to keep me from being run over with ease. It's rare for me to be paying a single gold piece in unit maintenance, except for late in the game where money is no issue.

You're talking 100+ gold to rush a library, and just about everyone will be running at a small minus to treasury every turn at the start (trying to get the max tech). There is no money early in the game for rush building on any high scale, certainly not above Noble level which is the lowest I've played.

 

[Oggums]

TomOC, I'm going to quote you again since you didn't actually answer my question. You said "Representation" allows this:

Well, I noticed after getting the Pyramids in my last game, I can adjust my science slider from 60% to 80%-90%, and still be in the green with gold accumulating. I think that is a BIG boost. I was behind in techs, and now after about 15 turns I actually have techs to trade (I got 3 techs ahead of most of the other civs).

However, Representation doesn't do anything that gives you extra gold, allowing you to adjust your science slider up several notches and start making money. So, how do you explain how the Pyramids allowed for this boost?

With Representation, you get 3 happy people in 5 cities, not gold. It's good, but you don't need Representation or the Pyramids to accomplish this. For example, Monarchy with Hereditary Rule is relatively cheap enough to research early on, if you need the happy faces. I just don't think your slider boost came from anything the Pyramids did for you at all, although I'd be happy to hear what I'm missing, if I'm wrong.

 

[Lucas87]

I think they are generally quite powerful, as Representation is an amazing civic. They become truly imbalanced if you are philosophical though. When philosophical, it's best to focus on specialists anyway, and now they do a ton of extra science. The Great Library is a very nice synergy with this, because you churn out great scientist galore, which if all your academies are built can be used as +9 science specialists whose effects get amplified by the city you put them in. If you chuck all these guys into your science city with Oxford University, Academy and all the rest of the science building, that city can produce 500-600 science a turn. Fortunately, the pyramids are very expensive, but to me representation is just too powerful not to get. The Great Engineers are also awesome. If the Pyramids are overpowered, it's because Representation is overpowered. Hereditary Rule isn't all that useful and can be had early anyway. Police State is a nice wartime civic, but I don't think getting it super early really imbalances the game and Universal Suffrage is only useful if you have piles of money or towns which you dont early in the game.

 

[TomOC]

TomOC, I agree Representation is good but it's really just the same as having 3 archers in your top 6 cities under Hereditary Rule. I still can't figure out why this gives you a lead.

I don't build 3 archers per city just to keep the city's producing. If I have that many archers, or any military units, I am moving them to the nearest enemy city. With 6 cities ... 3 archers per city ... what is the upkeep for 18 units under Hereditary Rule (is there upkeep ... not sure)?

I think getting to Representation sooner, then build an offensive army, and then ... let the plundering begin! I find I'm going to war sooner after building the Pyramids.

 

[CyberChrist]

...and just about everyone will be running at a small minus to treasury every turn at the start...

Only time I ever had a negative income in the beginning was when I decided to try with a few more cities than I normally have - otherwise it is not uncommon for me to have around 2Ks around 1AD.

Going for Alphabet, Literacy(grabbing Grt. Library for even more Grt. People points and Representation science ) and Currency fast help a lot of course, as I can then claim whatever cash the AI might have gathered for all the minor techs they don't have yet (normally quite a few).


EDIT: forgot to add a tech

 

[Jimbo30]

I don't build 3 archers per city just to keep the city's producing. If I have that many archers, or any military units, I am moving them to the nearest enemy city. With 6 cities ... 3 archers per city ... what is the upkeep for 18 units under Hereditary Rule (is there upkeep ... not sure)?

The unit upkeep stays the same, except for when you are pacifist. If you have 5-6 size 8+ cities, you won't be paying any upkeep for 18 units.

I think getting to Representation sooner, then build an offensive army, and then ... let the plundering begin! I find I'm going to war sooner after building the Pyramids.

It's not much different from going Pyramids/Police State. You might wage war slightly *better* after building the Pyramids, but if you'd spent that time building horse archers instead you could definitely have been going to war a lot earlier. It's pretty balanced overall imo.

 

[Rexflex]

They were useless. Many times I got up to the point of having gunpowder and still never built any. They were completely unessential.

Pfft. Gunpowder was miles off on the tech tree. By the time that tech would come up I no longer tended to need to build new cities anyway as I held a leading territory position thanks to building the pyramids early. Maybe you just didn't play the game the way that made the wonder succesfull.