Pyramids overpowered

[Thalassicus]

I think you have to make a distinction between two things. The Pyramids without industrious and stone, and the Pyramids with industrious and stone.

Without those the Pyramids cost 450 hammers, or 13 axemen. With both of them the Pyramids cost 112 hammers - 3 axemen! There’s a huge difference there!

That said, I only go for the Pyramids when I have access to Stone with my first two cities... I always play Industrious leaders (Ghandi, Qin, Napoleon). Otherwise you simply can't get them before the AI. If you do get them though, you can go all out farms + specialists + mined hills for both massive production and amazing research! Those are normally two things you can't do at the same time. 112 hammers are extremely easy to get when worker chops give you about 30 hammers each.

So it's very situational. If you don't play Industrious civs, or don't have access to Stone, you can count it out. If you do, though, it can change the early game entirely.

 

[CivFan91]

I thought it wasn't too unbalanced, since govt. type isn't as all-powerful as it was in Civ < IV. It did give me a few advantages, though. And I liked the nostalgia of Civ I.

And why mock my wonder? I made it myself. If I wasn't being threatened with a snow-storm, I'd give you a piece of my mind. (Check avatar)

 

[riot_girl]

I think the pyramids should do some thing spirtual acctually, since thats what they were made for in the first place? Like let you unlock a religion, or put a temple in each city or some thing of that sort.

 

[onedreamer]

Are the pyramids the next great library? I find when I get the Pyramids, that I can get ahead in techs with very little effort. The Government civics bonus that early in the game seems almost overpowered.

I am not an expert player ... I am on the prince level. But my last game I missed the Pyramids and could not catch up in techs.

Now in my most recent game, when I got the Pyramids, I moved my goverment civic up to representation. It keeps the money flowing in, thus allowing me to out research the AI. With a little careful trading it is easy.

Just throwing this out to see what others think.

T~

well, compare it to the Spiral Minaret, which will give you 3 gpt at best. I'm astonished at the difference in power some wonders give. Ok the minaret is faster to build, but still... the gap between the 2 is enormous.

 

[CyberChrist]

well, compare it to the Spiral Minaret, which will give you 3 gpt at best.

?
Spiral Minaret will give you 1 gpt for EACH building related to your current state religion in ALL your cites.

 

[zafyro]

If you have no religion selected it should give you 1 gpt for each religious building independent of religion.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Why compare to exactly the great library from civ3

TGL was just about the most useless wonder of them all in civ3.

We are talking about the pyramids here. The pyramids was the most powerfull wonder in civ3 by its effect. It just was too expensive to build that early. So if it is actually that powerfull in civ4, it might well be the same as in civ3.

 

[Jimbo30]

That said, I only go for the Pyramids when I have access to Stone with my first two cities... I always play Industrious leaders (Ghandi, Qin, Napoleon). Otherwise you simply can't get them before the AI.

That's the way it ought to be. I'm amazed if I get the pyramids with any non industrial, no stone civ.

If you do get them though, you can go all out farms + specialists + mined hills for both massive production and amazing research! Those are normally two things you can't do at the same time. 112 hammers are extremely easy to get when worker chops give you about 30 hammers each.

Let's assume the best case, which is you build the pyramids just after you have 5 cities at +3 population over their max happiness. If you've managed this then you're already having a pretty good game as 5 size 8 cities around c.500 bc is no mean feat and I'd say only possible with an Expansionist civ.

You'll be working another 15 squares that you weren't previously (5 cities * 3 workers) and that will get you around 60 commerce overall (I'm going at 4 commerce/square which is a probably a bit generous).

That looks great, and is probably the equivalent of your best 2 cities commerce combined. However, if you'd grabbed an early religion like Hinduism or Judaism and built temples in your 5 cities, you'd have been working 5 cities at +2 population over their max happiness for a lot longer (for a commerce total of +40 over a longer period).

Now, if you *really* want to have a good game, grab a religion, build temples and make sure you have 5 size 10 cities just as you build the pyramids. Just be careful nobody decides to steamroll over you while you're happy building.

 

[Oggums]

That sounds great, until the pyramid guy rolls your holy cities with the military he got from his tech path.

 

[CyberChrist]

Heh heh.

I think we can conclude that getting the Pyramids is mostly a matter of whether it suits your playstyle or not - builders are a lot more likely to (try to) grab Pyramids than expansionists are.

That doesn't change the fact that Pyramids is a very strong wonder for anyone that do get it.

 

[karadoc]

TGL was just about the most useless wonder of them all in civ3.

Are you kidding? With TGL in Civ3, you could basically turn off all research until it went obsolete - giving you a huge amount of gold; and you'd still_ be one of the leaders in technology by the end of it.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Are you kidding? With TGL in Civ3, you could basically turn off all research until it went obsolete - giving you a huge amount of gold; and you'd still_ be one of the leaders in technology by the end of it.

No i am not at all kidding. On any difficulty lower that Sid, trading can easilly acomplish anything that TGL can accomplish.
On Sid it gets usefull, but now it gets very hard to build.

Only in AW games and sometimes in Sid if you get the chance to build it and you abuse it to get into industrial with it, TGL is nice.

 

[karadoc]

But to trade techs, you actually need to have techs that the AI doesn't have - with TGL you don't need that. Also, when you trade techs, the AI gets whatever you give them - with TGL the AI gets nothing.
Surely someone will back me up on this.

 

[Samson]

No i am not at all kidding. On any difficulty lower that Sid, trading can easilly acomplish anything that TGL can accomplish.
On Sid it gets usefull, but now it gets very hard to build.

This is total OT, but I shall have to stick my oar in. I used to play diety, and TGL was great if you had the right position. The AI hardly ever went for lit, so you had a good chance of getting it, and if you did not have a good start (ie. no food bonus) it was very easy to fall behind all the AI very quickly. TGL would allow you to stop reaserch and concentrate on mass upgrades giving you half a chance in an early war.

It is all play style however, and I know you did very well on a number of occasions (I was very imressed by at least 2 of your SGTOMs).

 

[King Flevance]

Here is me playing as Greece. Agg/Phi and I got the Pyramids, no stone on noble. Also got the Great Lighthouse after the Pyramids and had Stonehendge before the Pyramids. I built Stonehendge on the queue as I would build a warrior/settler, I would chop down trees (I had alot of trees) to hurry production and have the overflow go to stonehendge.


As far as the great library is concerned, I like that it toned down. Pre-Civ 4 you couldnt get me to trade techs with another civ. I would just bee-line for gunpowder and pick up what I miss from others. I like the +2 scientist thing, it makes it more logical.
What I miss is Sun Tzu's Art of War. Feudalism granting a free barracks in all cities THAT early. Woot! why build any and just bee-line for it after literacy/republic? I think a patch should bring in Military GP and bring back in Sun Tzu's AoW to act similar to the Chichen Izra thing thing Aztecs built. (+25% city defenses.

 

[LeSphinx]

Now pyramid have the same effect than it was in CIV 1!!!!
It allows you the change civic government before having the tech.
For a builder like me, it's very usefull!


LeSphinx