The title of this thread is misleading; I know how PZs work, what I don't know is how to get them to stop working. It seems that no matter how big my army is, I can't effectively fight the Sheaim because when I get through too many zombies, my entire stack turns to charcoal. How can I defeat a large stack of Pyre Zombies?
Pyre Zombies, how do they work?
- Thread starter tribble
- Start date
There are a few threads elsewhere on the forum for exact ways of doing this, but no harm in repeating them again I suppose.
General ideas:
1. Try and attack with the minimum amount of units nearby when you do attack. This means faster units that can move from two squares in, and retreat if the explosions come too hard.
2. I don't remember this clearly, but zombies may explode with damage proportional to the amount of life they had. Catapults and spells may be useful in this case to weaken the zombies before they explode. They may be useful anyway, for enough damage to the zombies that units can fight them at low health and still win.
3. If you get life mana, or any units that can otherwise access life 2, destroy undead kills them without explosions. just get a few such units, and rack up the kills. Just make sure to position things well.
4. Fire resistance may help a bit, though against lots of units it might not be as helpful within the above strategies being used.
General ideas:
1. Try and attack with the minimum amount of units nearby when you do attack. This means faster units that can move from two squares in, and retreat if the explosions come too hard.
2. I don't remember this clearly, but zombies may explode with damage proportional to the amount of life they had. Catapults and spells may be useful in this case to weaken the zombies before they explode. They may be useful anyway, for enough damage to the zombies that units can fight them at low health and still win.
3. If you get life mana, or any units that can otherwise access life 2, destroy undead kills them without explosions. just get a few such units, and rack up the kills. Just make sure to position things well.
4. Fire resistance may help a bit, though against lots of units it might not be as helpful within the above strategies being used.
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[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
mounted units are best, you want your stack to sit two tiles away and attack one unit a time, then retreat.
Selrahc
Chieftain
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3 move units can start outside of explosion range, then hit and run back outside of explosion and counter attack range. Horse units, or recon units with mobility, or other units with both mobility and haste. Pyre Zombies may mitigate this by putting defensive terrain like forests and hills between them and your stack.
2 move units can start outside of explosion range, then hit, and end move inside explosion range of all the rest of the kills caused in the turn and counter attack range. If you have strength in numbers this works but is costly. Normal recon units, or most units with the mobility promotion fall into this category.
1 move units don't work without access to healing in between attacks. Kills they cause will cause damage to their entire stack, bringing them to critical levels of health after a few victories. They will end turn in counter attack range. Don't get into this sort of fight if you can possibly help it.
Units with access to healing can just about work. I'm specifically thinking of wood golems, with heavy enchantment adept support. The adepts stay behind the golems, and move in one by one to heal(and with haste or mobility, retreat outside explosion range again). Despite being vulnerable to fire an empowered wood golem should be decently superior in a one on one fight to a pyre zombie. As long as the adepts can keep them healed, the Wood Golems can win. The golem player needs many more hammers worth of troops though.
Mages with Destroy Undead absolutely devastate Pyre Zombies. Elohim devouts can similarly be upgraded to priests with Life 2, making them an effeective counter.
Summoner mages can work. But both fireballs and spectres are very very poor against the zombies, which rules out most summoners. Ice, Law or Entropy summons will still work well however, and if the mage has either mobility, has been hasted or has spell extension then the mage will work as well as a three move unit. It's almost always better to go for the life mages though, unless you really can't get access to life mana.
Mage based options all require many more technologies than the Pyre Zombies so won't stop an early rush.
2 move units can start outside of explosion range, then hit, and end move inside explosion range of all the rest of the kills caused in the turn and counter attack range. If you have strength in numbers this works but is costly. Normal recon units, or most units with the mobility promotion fall into this category.
1 move units don't work without access to healing in between attacks. Kills they cause will cause damage to their entire stack, bringing them to critical levels of health after a few victories. They will end turn in counter attack range. Don't get into this sort of fight if you can possibly help it.
Units with access to healing can just about work. I'm specifically thinking of wood golems, with heavy enchantment adept support. The adepts stay behind the golems, and move in one by one to heal(and with haste or mobility, retreat outside explosion range again). Despite being vulnerable to fire an empowered wood golem should be decently superior in a one on one fight to a pyre zombie. As long as the adepts can keep them healed, the Wood Golems can win. The golem player needs many more hammers worth of troops though.
Mages with Destroy Undead absolutely devastate Pyre Zombies. Elohim devouts can similarly be upgraded to priests with Life 2, making them an effeective counter.
Summoner mages can work. But both fireballs and spectres are very very poor against the zombies, which rules out most summoners. Ice, Law or Entropy summons will still work well however, and if the mage has either mobility, has been hasted or has spell extension then the mage will work as well as a three move unit. It's almost always better to go for the life mages though, unless you really can't get access to life mana.
Mage based options all require many more technologies than the Pyre Zombies so won't stop an early rush.
strategynoob
Chieftain
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As mentioned, ranged damage spells like fireball and summons are the most efficient ways to deal with them.
Or, you could call up and ask the Insane Clown Posse.
Or, you could call up and ask the Insane Clown Posse.
Eerdna
Chieftain
Try making the SoD (PZ really know the Doom part) split, if you do that then their own explotions will hurt their soldiers, summons are good for this. Also try using slow or another spell of this kind to stop them before they get near your city.... againts pire somethimes is better to let the take the city and then fight your way back (BY NO MEANS USE THE LAST TIP IN MP!!!!! HUMANS ARE WAY MORE INTELIGENTS/EVIL THAN BOTS!!!)
Eerdna
Chieftain
ice/holy/chaos.... not only fire mana and death mana exist
Selrahc
Chieftain
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Sure. But fireballs were specifically mentioned.
There are only a few level 2 summons.
Fireballs are awful. (Resistance to fire)
Spectres are awful. (Immunity to death)
Pit Beasts are bad. (Resistance to unholy, not reliant on unholy but fairly low strength)
Sand Lions are decent. (Resistance to fire, not reliant on that and with decent strength)
Ice Elementals are decent.
Hosts of the Einherjar are good. (Weakness to Holy)
The only L2 summons you could legitimately build an anti Pyre Zombie strategy around are Ice Elementals (Very low availability), Sand Lions (Malakim units on a desert only) and Hosts. Only hosts are probably going to be available, and in general they aren't great units.
Saying that summons are "very effective" seems to me to be dead wrong.
Eerdna
Chieftain
at least is more efective than fighting in a normal SOD vs SOD fight
In base FfH, no one can build ice nodes. So only Illians and anyone who stumbles onto Letum Frigis can get ice spells.
that's what I thought. So, that gives them a max strength of what, 7?
Raiders trait helps a lot. Body magic I -- Haste spell helps too. The only units that are useless are catapults.
Life II Destroy Undead is very powerful against them. Arthendain and Sphener get that spell.
I assume that it's tough to fight them if you are AV.
Life II Destroy Undead is very powerful against them. Arthendain and Sphener get that spell.
I assume that it's tough to fight them if you are AV.
If you're AV and there are sheaim about, you should beeline for a permanent alliance anyway.
Not everyone consider victory in permanent alliance a 'real' victory
if you know you are going to be experiencing PZ's before hand ...
probably pick either Elohim or Kuriotates. (at least in MP)
Elohim only need Poisons -> Priesthood to get free army of Life 2 with only needing 2 free exp (you get get that with Apprenticeship)
both are good techs, and since Catapults/Ring of Fire/ Tsunamis + Assassins is a really nice combo against OTHER armies, this is the way to go if you are Elohim militant, or AV ELohim, or OO ELohim. (if militant, then all u are going out of your way for is Priesthood)
However, if ALL you are going to be facing is PZs (and no other armies), then I would suggest Kuriotates. and go either Order or Empyrean. And, if possible, snag Letum Frigus.
High Mobility units with access to extra holy damage can at least keep the PZs on their toes ... but you still wouldn't be able to kill PZs in a direct confrontation ... but at least vs Humans you won't be facing THAT many PZs ... and vs AI you can abandon your own cities and take THEIR cities with your centaurs, while their PZs are in your lands.
But yes, because Devouts -> Priests is a guaranteed instant Life 2 (without the annoying wait for EXP that Mages require), an ARMY of Life 2 priests (instead of just a couple mages)
So, for the most guaranteed way to kill PZs (aka most access to Life 2) is the Elohim Devout -> Priest route.
probably pick either Elohim or Kuriotates. (at least in MP)
Elohim only need Poisons -> Priesthood to get free army of Life 2 with only needing 2 free exp (you get get that with Apprenticeship)
both are good techs, and since Catapults/Ring of Fire/ Tsunamis + Assassins is a really nice combo against OTHER armies, this is the way to go if you are Elohim militant, or AV ELohim, or OO ELohim. (if militant, then all u are going out of your way for is Priesthood)
However, if ALL you are going to be facing is PZs (and no other armies), then I would suggest Kuriotates. and go either Order or Empyrean. And, if possible, snag Letum Frigus.
High Mobility units with access to extra holy damage can at least keep the PZs on their toes ... but you still wouldn't be able to kill PZs in a direct confrontation ... but at least vs Humans you won't be facing THAT many PZs ... and vs AI you can abandon your own cities and take THEIR cities with your centaurs, while their PZs are in your lands.
But yes, because Devouts -> Priests is a guaranteed instant Life 2 (without the annoying wait for EXP that Mages require), an ARMY of Life 2 priests (instead of just a couple mages)
So, for the most guaranteed way to kill PZs (aka most access to Life 2) is the Elohim Devout -> Priest route.
Well, actually the "Poisons" tech (on the Elohim route) is some-what out of the way.
I mean, just do your normal priesthood thing (get a religion and economy going, maybe some military, get to priesthood), and then tech Poisons so you can train your "Zombie Killers"
Also works well against Diseased Corpses. Be warned though, it will kill your own Diseased Corpses as well! (so if your Elohim/ AV with Zombie killers, don't build an army of your own Zombies ... or at least don't use them with your Zombie Killer stack)
I mean, just do your normal priesthood thing (get a religion and economy going, maybe some military, get to priesthood), and then tech Poisons so you can train your "Zombie Killers"
Also works well against Diseased Corpses. Be warned though, it will kill your own Diseased Corpses as well! (so if your Elohim/ AV with Zombie killers, don't build an army of your own Zombies ... or at least don't use them with your Zombie Killer stack)
What's the attraction of the AV without sheaim, anyway? I don't like rampaging demons and plagues and plummeting property values.
