Quantity vs Quality

[Arent11]

Soo... everyone is always: Have the better tech + great generals & stomp the enemy with superior units.
However... those outdated, low tech units are much cheaper. So, I would be interested in strategies how to defeat a tech & strength superior enemy with zerg rush approaches. Something like this:

(1) Swarming single high tech units & using flanking/superior numbers
(2) Circumventing the enemy army and attacking/pillaging undefended cities, in this
way forcing the enemy to split his army
(3) Using defensive positions/choke points
(4) Using hit & run tactics, especially with embarked units on the sea

 

[JustifierNA]

quantity and simply because of the support/flanking bonuses. if you get the 2nd upgrade on the right side for light cav they're as strong as knights when used en masse and support bonuses can go up to +12 combat

 

[PYITE]

Sounds like the barbarian's strategy

 

[JustifierNA]

Sounds like the barbarian's strategy

Pretty much. I think a lot of people neglect the strength of those support/flanking bonuses: for example 1 pikemen at level 2 with the Square upgrade with 5 units around it will sit at 66 combat strength... 70 with Oligarchy and 80 vs cavalry units (both light and heavy). Top that off with terrain bonuses, a great general and you've got one hard nut to crack

 

[Archon_Wing]

Don't you pay more maintenance due to more units though?

 

[JustifierNA]

Conscription.

 

[JustifierNA]

Soo... everyone is always: Have the better tech + great generals & stomp the enemy with superior units.
However... those outdated, low tech units are much cheaper. So, I would be interested in strategies how to defeat a tech & strength superior enemy with zerg rush approaches. Something like this:

(1) Swarming single high tech units & using flanking/superior numbers
(2) Circumventing the enemy army and attacking/pillaging undefended cities, in this
way forcing the enemy to split his army
(3) Using defensive positions/choke points
(4) Using hit & run tactics, especially with embarked units on the sea

Don't forget pillaging resources. This is a big one regardless what units you're using. If you don't have strategic resources you cant produce units, regardless era. It's really annoyingly hard to try to defend your resources when you've got a limited amount of units to guard them: If you're upgrading to cav how many do you think you are going to get? 10? that's 950 gold with -50% upgrade cost but the kicker here is that if you've upgraded into those cavalry it's likely all you're going to be producing since most players wont get Divine Right for the civic card to produce them (they want merchant republic) Fortified knights+xbows+muskets can easily defend just 10 cav, and you can produce muskets in 2-5 turns in decent cities with the civic card being at Fuedalism. meanwhile you can always 1 turn horsemen to pillage and harass while building knights in 1-3 turns with Chivalry.

Now, if we're talking FIELD CANNONS that's a whole different ball game. Cannons will melt anything in front of them like butter and to top it off going for cannons before cav means you're going to get the boost to siege tactics (meaning in the end you also get Cavalry faster.
More importantly you're getting Bombards to take down cities easily
(assuming ofc you're not using support siege units still, which I consider abusive. I think they should self destruct after you can no longer produce them (or turn into a catapult or something))
But if you're using support siege with cav I'd say they're much better than field cannons/bombards vs cities since 1 hit will melt the city and on the fourth upgrade when you link the support units to the cav they get the same ms as cav

 

[Locke_Daemonfire]

Pretty much. I think a lot of people neglect the strength of those support/flanking bonuses: for example 1 pikemen at level 2 with the Square upgrade with 5 units around it will sit at 66 combat strength... 70 with Oligarchy and 80 vs cavalry units (both light and heavy). Top that off with terrain bonuses, a great general and you've got one hard nut to crack

The problem with the support bonus is that you can't choose what your opponent will attack. Even the AI will know not to attack your pikeman with 20 support bonus (which should put it at 61 if I'm not missing something). They can just attack the supporting units. The other drawback is that it doesn't work against ranged attacks.

Flanking is somewhat more reliable, although it's hard to stack big numbers unless the enemy only has one unit. It also doesn't work for ranged attacks.

 

[JustifierNA]

The problem with the support bonus is that you can't choose what your opponent will attack. Even the AI will know not to attack your pikeman with 20 support bonus (which should put it at 61 if I'm not missing something). They can just attack the supporting units. The other drawback is that it doesn't work against ranged attacks.

Flanking is somewhat more reliable, although it's hard to stack big numbers unless the enemy only has one unit. It also doesn't work for ranged attacks.

All true, which is the Ranged unit's niche. BUT if an opponent is not willing to attack a unit with +20 CS defensively then you kind of are controlling what unit your opponent will attack also that unit is amazing for escorting support units (rams/towers/medics/Chaplin apostles) and that unit can still attack other units... also ever seen what happens when you get 3-4 anti cavalry units to level 4? It basically means that all of your(the player fighting you) cavalry units, regardless the era, are now completely useless. (put 3-4 anti cavalry with the 4th promotion around Artillery for example and it will get +30-40 vs cavalry units, both attacking and defending)


Regarding Flanking the most I assume you're going to get is going to be 4 adj (+8, +16 with 2nd right upgrade on light cavalry) but 3 adj is far more likely

 

[Arent11]

Don't forget pillaging resources. This is a big one regardless what units you're using. If you don't have strategic resources you cant produce units, regardless era.

I played around with that because I heard that if you loose all strategic ressources your units that require them can not heal.

Problem is that builders now build improvements instantly, so the time window is usually small. Also, if someone has a city on top of a ressource you cannot pillage that.

 

[Victoria]

The ideal thing to do is pillage their strategic resource and hope to hell they cannot trade with anyone... read on for more detail on this.

When you have a knight or an AT walk into your territory and you are a lot weaker then flanking and terrain are key. AT are fine in this regard but knights/tanks ignore ZC, move fast and can cause merry hell. Turn that around ... and send some knights into their land and the same problem ensues. Its a small problem if done to you normally because they do not target the right things.

The issue comes when Tomyris or Peter attacks you with a wave of mounted. Being invaded by a substatially stronger highly mobile units is a problem. Face them in the field and you cannot get the flanking bonuses you need so you die. However choose the right spot around a targetted city and the AI become a lot more ineffective. Your support bonuses do count for a lot and having a double support spear really can help but having a level 4 spear that trasfers an additional +10 anti cav onto adjacent units as well and your spear is providing +14 support. I have fought off a huge Tomyris invasion with 7 archers and 2 spears ... support counts more than you realise when the opposition starts with +20 against you. The difference between +20 and +12 is big (2 other archers and a support spear) and over time helps a lot.

Attacking a civ with a higher army level and size can be done. I recommend keeping a foot army at home, declare war and hunker down around a city while your mounted force waits for the enemy force to come at you before swooping in to pillage their iron/niter and luxes. You must not forget the luxes, they are probably more powerful. Once their amenities drop then the rebellion can do most of the looting for you. Just make sure gold producing things are wasted and then their army can disappear like fairy dust on a windy day.

At sea its a little difference as its about first strike and having +1 speed over the opponent

regardless... against the AI you can do many things... against a real opponent with a strong army/navy you are hoping they are a noob but the reality is noobs do not end up in that situation.
In such a cases I would build military engineers with the mortuary promotion.

 

[Arent11]

Once their amenities drop then the rebellion can do most of the looting for you. Just make sure gold producing things are wasted and then their army can disappear like fairy dust on a windy day.

Yes, targeting the gold is another good idea. After all, these commercial hubs are easily pillageable & the few other tiles that yield gold can be quickly gone as well. Furthermore, you can use that money for yourself

If you combine that with a spy that steals money, it could be devastating. Several people in the discussion forum mentioned that already: They had 200+ gold & suddenly there was a theft of 500+ gold (clearly a bug, you shouldn't be able to steal more than the enemy has) & everything disbanded & rebels spawned.

War weariness/targeting luxuries could be good in combination with Macedonia.

regardless... against the AI you can do many things... against a real opponent with a strong army/navy you are hoping they are a noob but the reality is noobs do not end up in that situation.

Well, in LAN parties I routinely choose a higher difficulty. It would just be unfair to play against a friend that never laid hands on civ before on the same difficulty.

 

[Victoria]

Well, in LAN parties I routinely choose a higher difficulty. It would just be unfair to play against a friend that never laid hands on civ before on the same difficulty.

Good on ya. I would like to think others would do the same

 

[PYITE]

Anyone have a strategy for getting anti cav units up to level 4?

 

[Victoria]

Anyone have a strategy for getting anti cav units up to level 4?

Very very carefully, they normally get shot to sh...

The only strat that works (and works well) is gorgo's hoplites. IMHO spears should be 30, it would just make the game much more interesting. I have had a Gorgo Lvl 4 AT behind a tank army... rather useful with a GG.. makes you 32 diff which enough to walk over other tanks 2/3rds of the time...
Full damage diff chart made here today Hans Lemurson figures out the Combat Formula

Warriors 20 spears 30 sword 36 ... why did they only make them 25? ... and they mess with swordsmen strength but never touch spears which would have been the majority of that eras armies... and instead we prefer men with clubs... just srazy

 

[JustifierNA]

I played around with that because I heard that if you loose all strategic ressources your units that require them can not heal.

Problem is that builders now build improvements instantly, so the time window is usually small. Also, if someone has a city on top of a ressource you cannot pillage that.

yep, one reason to settle a city on top of a resource. regarding Builders, yeah, you can build them and then improve the tile as soon as it gets there but that's still going to be between 2-5 turns (depending if you want to purchase the builder or not) and the time it takes to get to that resource to upgrade it WHILE fighting off units hell bent on keeping you from upgrading those resources WHILE fighting a war off in the corner, being unable to produce those VERY important units to for this entire period. Yeah you can build Spearmen/pikes/crossbows/w.e you're going to build in those units place but in the end if you're fighting off Swordsmen you're going to want either swordsmen or horsemen and the inability to produce or heal those units over the course of 4-10 turns can be devastating

Anyone have a strategy for getting anti cav units up to level 4?

Play America, use Oligarchy, Find Kabul, laugh


(Serious note though) get up 3-4 spearmen and just attack a worthless city state with them. let the CS slam into the spearmen rotate your units out when necessary and pick off their units when it's safe.)

In such a cases I would build military engineers with the mortuary promotion.

I've recently taken to building military engineers in every game.... Mortuary promotion? Military engineers do not receive any promotions they simply upgrade tiles (be it by adding a road/removing a feature or adding a feature (forts/airstrips/silos)

Yes, targeting the gold is another good idea. After all, these commercial hubs are easily pillageable & the few other tiles that yield gold can be quickly gone as well. Furthermore, you can use that money for yourself

If you combine that with a spy that steals money, it could be devastating. Several people in the discussion forum mentioned that already: They had 200+ gold & suddenly there was a theft of 500+ gold (clearly a bug, you shouldn't be able to steal more than the enemy has) & everything disbanded & rebels spawned.

War weariness/targeting luxuries could be good in combination with Macedonia.



Well, in LAN parties I routinely choose a higher difficulty. It would just be unfair to play against a friend that never laid hands on civ before on the same difficulty.

The idea here of stealing more money than you technically have is simple: You're taking the monetary value away from the armies and so they're not getting paid. If you reach the monetary value of a unit in - gold that unit will disband. Also when I run spy missions as the treasury of my target decreases so does the potential yields which I can steal from that player (I see it drop from around 200-300 to 40-60 when they get closer to 0) (Regardless, deleting units with spies is fun)

 

[Victoria]

I've recently taken to building military engineers in every game.... Mortuary promotion? Military engineers do not receive any promotions they simply upgrade tiles (be it by adding a road/removing a feature or adding a feature (forts/airstrips/silos)

The mortuary promotion gives them the ability to create one 6 ft hole especially for the player to lie in as their final act. The promotion only becomes available once you are 3 eras behind in techs

 

[JustifierNA]

The mortuary promotion gives them the ability to create one 6 ft hole especially for the player to lie in as their final act. The promotion only becomes available once you are 3 eras behind in techs

lul

 

[PMac67]

Dunno... Never had a Great General ! Do you need them ?? I Don't attack superior Civs usually... I wait until I'm Superior...

 

[JustifierNA]

I think highly of great generals... but only because of the diversity they bring to your arsenal when combined with other units

1: Classical era Great Generals
(Affects catapults allowing them to move and shoot within the same turn without the 3rd upgrade Siege towers, swords/xbows/pikes/horsemen/knights/military engineers) meaning for the majority of the early game you've got more movement/+5 combat strength
2: Renaissance/industrial era Great Generals
(makes Bombbards viable allowing them to move and shoot within the same turn without the 3rd upgrade, field cannons/musketmen/Rangers/cav/medics gain +1 movement) having the ability to move and shoot with siege units means they can move and shoot in the same turn which is vital for killing cities before they can take out your expensive and weak units
3: Modern era Great Generals
Allowing artillery to move and shoot within the same turn without the 3rd upgrade

Do you need them?
Nah.
Can they make your life a hell of a lot easier?
Yep.