Question about Democracy vs. Communism

[Longasc]

Yes, Civ3's government are rather idealized versions of real life governments. I hope they will have more various and really different forms of Govs with a lot more of interesting options and advantages in Civ4.

But seems as if they are focusing on 3D, so hope the best, expect the worst.

 

[Kozmos]

I lived under communism in ex-yugoslavia and it was better then democracy now (there is a lot more real life coruption now) but it was NOT a Staljin type communissm it was lets say more "democratic" communism you hadd hippies here and you could watch American movies listen to rock...
MHO
Staljin's communism=BAD
Tito's communism=GOOD

I live in Croatia and the government sucks,the police is very corrupted.I think we would be better off with communism.

 

[Bibor]

Hey, guys, we were the 3rd political superpower in the world!
(Yugoslavia was the leader of the 3rd world countries - Nesvrstane zemlje). Now tell me it was not good:

I live in croatia too. I'm not a yugo-nostalgičar but definitely the "enlightened" communism like it was in Yugoslavia is a pretty good regime to live in and it was "just like" in civ.

You had production in whole country (not just a "productive core"), it was not "so good" like the huge industrial centres like Ruhr in Germany but people got jobs everywhere. Every city had at least one factory. Corruption was low like in civ3 but not non-existent (like democracy is not corrupted, riiight). And we supported a LARGE military (from which we suffered in 1990s).
Personal money was low, but, actually, you don't need that much money after all.
Example: vacation. Nowadays you need much money for vacation. Then, every company had a "vacation centre" on seaside. For almost free.

Example: cars. Nowadays, we buy expensive imported cars. Then, you could get a WV car from the Sarajevo factory (if im not mistaken) for low price. Remember Yugo? Its our brand too. Got pretty decent in late 1980s (Florida model).

Research was great too. We had our own computers, several companies built computers on their own. Microchips, processors, everything. Not very powerful but they were *moderately advanced* for the time being.

All in all, you cannot pick a commodity that we did not produce on our own. clothing, food, cars, music, electronics, gadgets, trains, oil, fish, furniture, you name it. We even had manufacturing licences of famous western companies like Levi's, Volkswagen, Braun etc. And, yes, we could (and did) watch hollywood movies, listened to western music, there were hippies, punkers, rockers. Our discographic houses made licenced copies of almost all western music available. For example. The early Jean Michell Jarre albums (Oxygene, Equinoxe) from the PGP RTB (belgrade discogr. house) is *the* most wanted by fans. Good quailty and very very rare.

 

[Longasc]

I really find your comments on communism in Yugoslavia enlightening and I am personally very interested in this, but please stick to C3C Communism...

You really do not want to shock the inhabitants of the land of the free and so on at the other side of the Atlantic ocean with your positive comments on real world communism, right?

It is rather off-topic in this forum, to put it bluntly.

 

[Kozmos]

I dislike though you couldnt get married in the church if you would join a communist party and other stuff like that.Communism today would be good with some modifications.

 

[nameless53]

Well.. im usually in communisum once i get it.
THE REAL DRAW BACK is at the beginning.. rushing with people wasnt much of a deal.. i mean 2-6 .. ok.. here and there.. u didnt have much money anyhow (or i didnt)
but by the time in the END of the monarchy stage.. im managing money A LOT BETTER and yes.. rushing with money is so much kinder.
Under communisum.. rushing upsets teh people.. waste people... and recovers slower (20's to 30's even of people.. takes a while to recover) and unlike the REPUBLIC or DEMOCRACY or any other that rushes with $$$, they can do it always as long you have money.
good side is this.. if i had to rush many things with money.. i would not have enough $$$ to conduct spy works. that is where communium kicks in.
i feel better military a bit and plenty for spy works.

So the BEST construction age is under monarchy for me.
after that its Communisum.
if i find it "safe".. i will switch to Demoncracy for the 150% worker effiency and also the "money rush" for construction.

 

[Yiannis]

I lived under communism in ex-yugoslavia and it was better then democracy now (there is a lot more real life coruption now) but it was NOT a Staljin type communissm it was lets say more "democratic" communism you hadd hippies here and you could watch American movies listen to rock...
MHO
Staljin's communism=BAD
Tito's communism=GOOD

I would like to remind you Emver Hotja's communism in Albania.Christians were slautered or imprisoned,churches were looted.I 've heard of Tito's communism that it was't like Russian and Yugoslavia wasn't in Barsovia's pact,
but it's the exception that confirms the rule.All the other communist states were like fascist ones,except maybe Fidel Castro's in Cuba.The whole thing is that even the most unfair and oppressive goverment is good with when it has a good leader,even fascism and absolute monarchy.Do you know Basil Bulgaroctonus,the Byzantine emperor?He was an absolute monarch,but he set laws supporting the lower class,like forcing rich to pay the taxes of the poor who can't pay.And what about Metaxas,who had set a fascist dictatorship in Greece?When Fascist Italy asked him to surrender and Greece over,he,supporting the Greek people,attacked and defeated Italy.But you can't support a system because you wait for a good leader to be found,because most politicians are bad.Democracy prevents bad politicians to make very big damage in the country,generally speaking.

 

[Kozmos]

Democracy made very big damage in my country,those fat ass politicians are giving jobs to companies they started and raising their pay.

 

[Bibor]

Democracy prevents bad politicians to make very big damage in the country,generally speaking.

Just watch the reports from White House.

That would be very "generally speaking"

hahhahahahahahhaa

I'm not contra-american. As a matter of fact, i think the US made some great things in history (and even today). I just can't understand US foreign politics. Its just beyond my comprehension...

 

[Kozmos]

Yup democracy prevented Bush from making big damage.

 

[Bibor]

god i love this icon hahahaha

 

[Yiannis]

I just can't understand US foreign politics. Its just beyond my comprehension...

It is widely believed that US foreign politics are controlled by some very rich who actually control the goverment,using the president as a pawn.In adittion,some presidents make war to increase the favor of the people.Americal democracy needs reforms.After all,the American goverment gives more power to the president than any other democratic goverment.That is because their goverment is exactly the same since the american indepedence.Two hundred years ago it was the most democratic system in the world,but now it is obsolete.As you understand,the american democracy is kind of old(old with the opposite of young).​

 

[Longasc]

I am not from the US, but believe me, your are now QUITE off-topic.

Again, this was about Civ communism and democracy.

If you want to discuss real world governments, you should go to the appropriate forum. Your statements are rather interesting, but completely off-topic.

 

[Tranquility]

Ok...this is long. If you just wanna know my gaming view of commie vs demo, go to the 4th paragraphe(not including this one). As for the rest of you....

Alright...personnaly, i live in canada. For those of you who don't know, we had a big scandale here where the liberal party was giving money to an agency to distrubute to companies instead of giving the money to the companies themselves. The agency's job wa sto take a part of that money for there personnal stuff(cars, the good life). By no means i support communism. I still believe in democracy, yet seeing this really surprised me(I'm only 17, btw).

Norht Korea is communist...and i see alot of documentaries of people who feld the country to live in the southern part of Korea, saying the North gave no freedom. Maybe in communoisme things we're cheaper and less corrupt, but at the cost of the right of freespeech and alot of freedoms.

I do agree corruption is still very present around us, i'm thought the world was still a bit better than this(proves how naive i am).

Now...as for the gaming segment. Personnaly, the big benifit of lower corruption ois the shield output. While the money part is important, I'd rather have all my cities have being productive good shield output than to have 15 or so cities producing massive $. That'S why i perfer communism, all cities ARE producitve and suffer the same corruption. Sure you can accelerate the rate of one or 2 cities production via money in demo, but when you have 40 cities all producing factories, i prefer to wait 10 turns letting the shield gauge fill up in all my cities under communism than to spend 20 turns accelarating all my projects in all my cities under democracy where some of my cities have low shield output due to low corruption. I still use Democracy, but only when i have a medium sized country(between the fith biggest and tenth biggest countries). And i admit i've used democracy games more, but mostly because i've played most of my games via space race and diplo. I use communism when i wanna wage war(obviusly) and 150 k culture victories(you need alot cities, and low corruption).

As for the first part of of my segment, it's personnal, and it'S only through my eyes. Maybe you've seen things the real way, but there are always 2 sides to a medallion. Remember that. By gaining something, you usually loose something else.

I know i can't change your opinions(that'a VERY difficult thing to do for any human), but these discussions are in my opinion quite interesting. The point of view from where you are is different because you're somewhere else. Mine is different because I'm standing somewhere else. Let me explain it another way.

You're on one side of the table, and i'm on the other side. In the middle of the table is a cube that has 2 colors(black and white). Form your side, the cube is white, but from my side, it's black. Because of where we stand, the way we see and intepret the cube diffrently. Same thing with communism. We're in 2 different places, thus we have 2 different opinions. We should all try to look things through another eyes, thus we how our world is. I really think's it's cool that you guys are giving you're opinions.

 

[Tranquility]

Now shall we all agree to disagree, and let bigons be bigons?

This doesn't mean at all that I'm tired of seeing all these political posts, just that, well this is a gaming forum. If you still have stuff to say, you're free to say it.

 

[dmanakho]

Actually, when we are talking about communism in real life please keep in mind that communism never existed in any country in the world..
Russia, Yugoslavia, North Korea, Cuba - those are all socialistic countries...
They dreaamed and some still dream of building communism eventially.
COmmunism is totally different system from what those countries had.
For those interested please read papers written by Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin.
Communism was never built and never will be.. It's an utopia.

Plus, inreal life socialism in a russian/yugoslavian way generates more corruption than any other system. it's just hidden and you can't see it...
People in charge have all the perks of the system and all the money and it is uncontrolled. When those countries collapsed and became "democracies" the same ex-communists with all the money stolen became wealthiests capitalists in no time at all.
Dictatorial Unilateral Socialism is the true name that system has.
and it's a very very bad system, trust me I was born there and lived there.
No matter what other people say how good Tito was outcome is known - bloody Balcan wars. :thumbdown
No matter who good Gorbachev was outcome is also known, mirriads ethnic conflicts and breaking of Soviet Union... :thumbdown
it's all bad after all...

 

[Bibor]

Actually, when we are talking about communism in real life please keep in mind that communism never existed in any country in the world..
Russia, Yugoslavia, North Korea, Cuba - those are all socialistic countries...
They dreaamed and some still dream of building communism eventially.
COmmunism is totally different system from what those countries had.
For those interested please read papers written by Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin.
Communism was never built and never will be.. It's an utopia.

You are right about this. I was not referring to communism, but rather to socialism. In CIV3 all these governments are idealistic (especially democracy and communism).

Plus, inreal life socialism in a russian/yugoslavian way generates more corruption than any other system. it's just hidden and you can't see it...
People in charge have all the perks of the system and all the money and it is uncontrolled. When those countries collapsed and became "democracies" the same ex-communists with all the money stolen became wealthiests capitalists in no time at all.

You are wrong about this one. I lived it through so i know. And I have some connections in politics so I must clear some things up. First of all, the biggest money drain from our country is from *foreign politics*. Our new corrupt capitalists stole money from people, yes, but that sum is insignificant to the money that was sucked from croatia by US, European Union countries and others.
Let me explain: As Tito, as well as some other leaders of the post-WWII era were important in US vs. USSR politics, both parties tried to "bribe" the still neutral nations to join their flock. But, as not all people are dumb, the "Independent countries" group was formed by Naser, Nehru and Tito. So instead bribing one by one, US and USSR were bribing the whole community of 3rd world countries. This bribe was in form of loans that was actually money given away. It would be like a Right of passage in CIV3 for 150 GPT.
The problem is, when yugoslavia split up, and USSR was no longer a threat, the western block said "Give us our money back or else". But we said "We have no money to spare". They said "Okay, then you will pay off the old loans by taking out new ones, this time its not for free and you have to take them". Now, I'm sure that our politicians would gladly reply to this blackmail by **** YOU, but unfortunaltely it is impossible.
What happened next will be described by a following example:
"Croatia has great fish in the Adriatic (unlike Italy). Croatia is forced to sell the raw fish to Italy, they conserve it and croatia is then forced to buy it back as a finished product. We are buying our own fish which says MADE IN ITALY. And it's not like we don't have our own fish-processing factories.

Fortunately, our not-so-dumb government started a program called "Let's buy Croatian" which promotes the purchase of our own products. As i stated before, we can and we *do* produce almost every type of consumer product we need (except sophisticated eletronics and cars). So, in a long term, it will still be a **** YOU, although said in a more diplomatic way.

-bibor

 

[Yiannis]

To Bibor and dmanakho:I suggest that you create a new thread,about non-civ3 communism vs. democracy.

 

[dmanakho]

To Bibor and dmanakho:I suggest that you create a new thread,about non-civ3 communism vs. democracy.

Thanks, but i will pass...
Too much of communism propaganda as it is now.

oh, and congatulations with winning Euro Cup...
That was something incredibly unbelievable.!!!!

 

[Yiannis]

oh, and congatulations with winning Euro Cup...
That was something incredibly unbelievable.!!!!

Thank you.We needed to do something unbelievable;We had 64 years since our last one.