Question about diplomacy

[Jaybe]

So you're saying it was different with the original WWGD? That was my impression - that Sneaks had eliminated the "Chieftain" bonus, but that the AI still received more than the human on the higher levels. Are you saying this was never the case... just that you may have goosed happiness more than you should have?

In that case, if you lower it to 8, wouldn't the human also be penalized, and have an even harder time expanding?

My point was that with Handicap_AI_Standard HappinessDefault of 8 and leaving the player's HappinessDefault at 12, after the first city is settled with the AI's happiness they are equal (with the AI's perhaps one higher).

 

[Aristos]

My point was that with Handicap_AI_Standard HappinessDefault of 8 and leaving the player's HappinessDefault at 12, after the first city is settled with the AI's happiness they are equal (with the AI's perhaps one higher).

There has to be something else that is "breaking" VEM in this sense, because when I forced the AI to play on Prince (changing only one line in GlobalAIDefines), me and the AIs started exactly at the same level, and not only that, but you could clearly see the bonuses in play (at Emperor, AI has 85% unhap x Prince level 100% = 85% unhap, so when I went down 5 unhap because of a new city, they went down 4).

Prince and Emperor both start at 9 default, and as soon as the AIs settled the first city, they went down to 5 (me to 4) because of the 85% mod).

 

[Thalassicus]

So you're saying it was different with the original WWGD? That was my impression - that Sneaks had eliminated the "Chieftain" bonus, but that the AI still received more than the human on the higher levels. Are you saying this was never the case... just that you may have goosed happiness more than you should have?

In that case, if you lower it to 8, wouldn't the human also be penalized, and have an even harder time expanding?

The AI has a hidden stand-alone difficulty setting (just for AIs) which eliminates the percentage-based bonus AIs receive in vanilla. However, it appears there is also a separate fixed bonus somewhere in the c++ game core we cannot access. I've corrected this for the next version by altering the part we do have access to.

<Row>
  <Type>HANDICAP_CHIEFTAIN</Type>
  ...
  <HappinessDefault>12</HappinessDefault>
  <ExtraHappinessPerLuxury>1</ExtraHappinessPerLuxury>
  <NumCitiesUnhappinessMod>60</NumCitiesUnhappinessMod>
  <PopulationUnhappinessMod>60</PopulationUnhappinessMod>
  ...
</Row>
<Update>
  <Where Type="HANDICAP_EMPEROR" />
  <Set>
  ...
  <HappinessDefault>12</HappinessDefault>
  <ExtraHappinessPerLuxury>0</ExtraHappinessPerLuxury>
  <NumCitiesUnhappinessMod>100</NumCitiesUnhappinessMod>
  <PopulationUnhappinessMod>100</PopulationUnhappinessMod>
  ...
  </Set>
</Update>
<Row>
  <Type>HANDICAP_AI_STANDARD</Type>
  ...
  <HappinessDefault>16</HappinessDefault>
  <ExtraHappinessPerLuxury>0</ExtraHappinessPerLuxury>
  <NumCitiesUnhappinessMod>100</NumCitiesUnhappinessMod>
  <PopulationUnhappinessMod>100</PopulationUnhappinessMod>
  ...
</Row>

These are the values in v127. In v126 the AI and human had equal default happiness (12). I would not recommend setting the AI to Prince difficulty because Prince has several bonuses the AI difficulty does not have.

 

[Txurce]

Thanks, Thal. You aren't saying don't play on prince, though, right?

 

[Thalassicus]

Right. The PostDefines table determines what difficulty the AI plays on, and in WWGD this is changed to:

<PostDefines>
  <Update>
    <Where Name="STANDARD_HANDICAP" />
    <Set Key="HANDICAP_AI_STANDARD" />
  </Update>
  <Update>
    <Where Name="STANDARD_HANDICAP_QUICK" />
    <Set Key="HANDICAP_AI_STANDARD" />
  </Update>
</PostDefines>

As far as I know, the game reads the AI happiness values from the difficulty setting this points to. In vanilla this points to Chieftain. Other than those happiness settings, the other values are scanned from the human's difficulty setting:

Spoiler :

<Update>
  <Where Type="HANDICAP_EMPEROR" />
  <Set>
    <StartingLocPercent>50</StartingLocPercent>
    <AdvancedStartPointsMod>80</AdvancedStartPointsMod>
    <HappinessDefault>12</HappinessDefault>
    <NumCitiesUnhappinessMod>100</NumCitiesUnhappinessMod>
    <PopulationUnhappinessMod>100</PopulationUnhappinessMod>
    <Gold>0</Gold>
    <GoldFreeUnits>0</GoldFreeUnits>
    <ProductionFreeUnits>100</ProductionFreeUnits>
    <ProductionFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>50</ProductionFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>
    <ProductionFreeUnitsPerCity>2</ProductionFreeUnitsPerCity>
    <RouteCostPercent>100</RouteCostPercent>
    <UnitCostPercent>100</UnitCostPercent>
    <BuildingCostPercent>100</BuildingCostPercent>
    <ResearchPercent>100</ResearchPercent>
    <PolicyPercent>100</PolicyPercent>
    <ImprovementCostPercent>100</ImprovementCostPercent>
    <CityProductionNumOptionsConsidered>2</CityProductionNumOptionsConsidered>
    <TechNumOptionsConsidered>2</TechNumOptionsConsidered>
    <PolicyNumOptionsConsidered>2</PolicyNumOptionsConsidered>
    <!--<InflationPercent>100</InflationPercent>-->
    <AttitudeChange>-1</AttitudeChange>
    <NoTechTradeModifier>30</NoTechTradeModifier>
    <BarbCampGold>25</BarbCampGold>
    <BarbSpawnMod>0</BarbSpawnMod>
    <BarbarianBonus>10</BarbarianBonus>
    <AIBarbarianBonus>20</AIBarbarianBonus>
    <EarliestBarbarianReleaseTurn>20</EarliestBarbarianReleaseTurn>
    <BarbarianLandTargetRange>7</BarbarianLandTargetRange>
    <BarbarianSeaTargetRange>18</BarbarianSeaTargetRange>
    <AIStartingDefenseUnits>0</AIStartingDefenseUnits>
    <AIStartingWorkerUnits>0</AIStartingWorkerUnits>
    <AIStartingExploreUnits>0</AIStartingExploreUnits>
    <AIDeclareWarProb>100</AIDeclareWarProb>
    <AIWorkRateModifier>75</AIWorkRateModifier>
    <AIUnhappinessPercent>100</AIUnhappinessPercent>
    <AIGrowthPercent>100</AIGrowthPercent>
    <AITrainPercent>87</AITrainPercent>
    <AIWorldTrainPercent>100</AIWorldTrainPercent>
    <AIConstructPercent>87</AIConstructPercent>
    <AIWorldConstructPercent>100</AIWorldConstructPercent>
    <AICreatePercent>87</AICreatePercent>
    <AIWorldCreatePercent>100</AIWorldCreatePercent>
    <AIBuildingCostPercent>63</AIBuildingCostPercent>
    <AIUnitCostPercent>63</AIUnitCostPercent>
    <AIUnitSupplyPercent>40</AIUnitSupplyPercent>
    <AIUnitUpgradePercent>63</AIUnitUpgradePercent>
    <!--<AIInflationPercent>80</AIInflationPercent>-->
    <AIPerEraModifier>-4</AIPerEraModifier>
    <AIAdvancedStartPercent>160</AIAdvancedStartPercent>
    <AIFreeXP>18</AIFreeXP>
    <AIFreeXPPerEra>9</AIFreeXPPerEra>
    <AIFreePromotion>PROMOTION_HANDICAP_I</AIFreePromotion>
    <AIResearchPercent>15</AIResearchPercent>
    <AIResearchPercentPerEra>12</AIResearchPercentPerEra>
    <AIProductionPercentPerEra>12</AIProductionPercentPerEra>
    <AIGold>30</AIGold>
  
</Set>

WWGD also does the following:

• Improves AI diplomatic, war, and city development strategies.
• Eliminates the AI growth and happiness bonuses.
• Shifts AI science/production bonuses from early to late game. This alleviates the classic problem in Civilization games where early eras are much harder and important than later eras.
• Provides militaristic bonuses for AIs on higher difficulty levels. (Vanilla has only economic bonuses, giving combat a disproportionate influence on high difficulties.)
• AI starting units focus more on archers/triremes/workers than vanilla (which gives warriors/workers).
• When an AI capital is near lots of water, the AI starts with triremes and embarkation.
• Citystates start with defensive units.
• Citystates can upgrade units for free.
• Ancient ruins near AI capitals auto-acquire. Each ruin gives a small amount of gold, science, and culture similar to averaging all the possibilities. The randomness of early AI exploration is a major problem in vanilla.
• Barbarians cannot enter civilized territory until a turn which depends on difficulty level.

 

[Txurce]

I intend to leave the AI setting where they are (or will be).

 

[Jaybe]

<HappinessDefault>16</HappinessDefault>

I note you went the opposite way I did (mine was 8). I didn't take the opportunity to investigate AI happiness early in my current (adjusted) v126 game.

 

[Txurce]

I'm looking forward to commenting on v128. The description says the AI start with less happiness, presumably essentially equal to the human. does this mean that all of the AI bonuses are now production related, plus the additional starting units?

 

[Aristos]

Well, I understand all your points, and I mostly know them by my own experimenting, but I am only trying to share my experience, mainly because it surprised me (in a good way). I am playing my second game at Emperor now, with the AI handicap set to Prince (and NOT using VEM), and I have to share that I am having a blast... for the first time in civ5, it feels a little more like Civ. I am not trying to demerit your work, not at all, quiet the opposite... I am trying to put a light on something that may have hidden good surprises.

All in all, I am sticking with this little change. I am pleasantly surprised at how the game develops with the AI playing on Prince, the different dynamic it has, and I don't see the challenge going easier. Quiet the opposite: gold and resources are not a given for the AI anymore, so every single AI exploit available for the human players at higher diff levels are not there anymore... that makes it more challenging to me, at least.

 

[Thalassicus]

@Jaybe
Oops, I just went the wrong way.

@Txurce
I'd thought AI happiness equaled human happiness before... and it should be now. It's been the intention. The human and AI should be identical in terms of growth and happiness bonuses, because altering those distorts the game too much.

@Aristos
I understand what you're saying.

 

[Txurce]

Excellent - I can't wait to try it. If we isolate the AI edge to overall production and starting unit bonuses, then it becomes much easier to balance the game, and make it feel more fair. This may lead us back to reconsidering the Era Time Release approach to production bonuses that I advocated and you saved for a rainy day (!), where the AI gets less of a jump start at the front, but ramps up over the ages so that the human doesn't have as easy a time as he does now in the later stages.

 

[Thalassicus]

What distinguishes that from the stuff added in September? These two values are at the bottom of the earlier spoiler:

AIResearchPercentPerEra
AIProductionPercentPerEra

I think the AI bonuses are:

• Production and science.
• Per-era production and science.
• Improvement construction.
• Starts with extra gold, units, and techs.
• Auto-acquires nearby ruins on turn 1.
• Unit sight range.
• Unit experience.

 

[Txurce]

What distinguishes that from the stuff added in September? These two values are at the bottom of the earlier spoiler:

AIResearchPercentPerEra
AIProductionPercentPerEra

I think the AI bonuses are:

• Production and science.
• Per-era production and science.
• Improvement construction.
• Starts with extra gold, units, and techs.
• Auto-acquires nearby ruins on turn 1.
• Unit sight range.
• Unit experience.

Back then you mentioned that "In the future I plan on making the production bonus scale up as well, but it's more challenging from a technical perspective." Based on the above list, everything has been addressed. With v128 on, we can now focus more closely on AI era progress. The AI is definitely more competitive now. You can't make it rush SS parts, but big AI often match my late-game science output.