Question about medieval warfare

storealex

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When knights would charge with their lances, what exactly would happen? The lance would hit one man, and then what? Break? Get stuck? Or would the knight be able to continue using it, or would he draw his sword? Assuming that he would use his sword, what would he do with the lance? Abandon it, meaning that his next charge would not be as powerful?

Please don't answer with guesses. Thanks in advance :)
 
Most likely medieval knights used their lances as earlier and later lancers would. You go for one heck of an initial impact. The lance you often have to discard after that one use, and then it's swords and axes, long ones that give you plenty of reach. Cavalry swords are almost invariably longer than the swords of foot soldiers, often to the point of being unwieldly to fight with on foot.
 
The lance is done. Using the gear they had, you could put pretty much the full force of a charger behind the tiny tip of the lance. A charge of knights would use it to break up a formation, and once that was done, they would finish the job with swords, axes, and other such weapons. A Lance is far too unwieldy for close combat.
 
A lance was a one-use weapon that usually splintered on impact.

Knights were usually used as shock troops though - that is, they were supposed to break the enemy with a lance charge, then retire. If they had to use their secondary weapons - axes, swords, maces - for an extended melee, they were in trouble. Foot soldiers could always dishorse a knight if he was immobile and surrounded - that's what they had those hellebards and the like for!
So, if used effectively, knights would charge in a mass with lances, break the enemy lines, then retire to rest their horses and get fresh lances in preparation for the next charge.
 
When knights would charge with their lances, what exactly would happen? The lance would hit one man, and then what? Break? Get stuck? Or would the knight be able to continue using it, or would he draw his sword? Assuming that he would use his sword, what would he do with the lance? Abandon it, meaning that his next charge would not be as powerful?

Please don't answer with guesses. Thanks in advance :)

They were generally meant to impale the the first row of infantry and use insueing shock was generally meant to scare the infantry to fleeing, then the cavalry would ride them down. If they didn't break and run, the knights would then draw their swords (or whatever secondary weapon they had). But once that initial charge was done, the lances were worthless as they were generally broken, shattered, or just plain dropped. Also, it was damn near impossible to get the enitre cavalry unit to pull back and regroup and charge again. Cavalry tended to be a one use only attack.
 
Also, it was damn near impossible to get the enitre cavalry unit to pull back and regroup and charge again. Cavalry tended to be a one use only attack.
Quite, but since stopping a proper, solid cavalry charge, for either the guys charging (you might be able to stop your horse, but not the ones around you) or those being charged, is also damn hard, one attack was often enough. A counter-charge might be just about the only thing that can do it, on level (good cavalry) ground.

Also medieval cavalry would typically not charge all in one go. The standard model was to draw them up in three ranks, giving you three shots at breaking the enemy line.

You can also try doing this with looser formations of knightly lancers, which was used in southern France, Spain etc. until the early 13th c. at least. With more agile horses and looser formations you can use the lance more like a spear (i.e. you won't always couch it) you "poke" with. Then you may have room to twist it free or let it rotate if stuck so that the weight of the opponents body pulls it free again.
 
From reading all this.. it sounds like in Medevil times Cavalry were highly disregarded. what ever happen to the Hannibal like use of Horsemen and such. Is this thread mostly referring to Knight-Infantry warfare or the use of the Knights all togther?
 
From reading all this.. it sounds like in Medevil times Cavalry were highly disregarded. what ever happen to the Hannibal like use of Horsemen and such. Is this thread mostly referring to Knight-Infantry warfare or the use of the Knights all togther?

I think we are talking about sirups period of the medieveil warfare where knights dominated the battlefield. Hannible elite calavary used javalins at the time and would have been considered light compared to the medieveil knights

Remember though thats knights themselves were superbly armoured with both chain mail as well as emerging steel plate (though less whealthy knights use iron plate) 2mm of steel plate provides almost impossible to penertrate using irn swords or spears. (crushing weapons were another matter)

The mounts themselves were specially bread for the charge. (massive warhorses) knight rode there other horses prior to battle. Often having something like four-five horses total for the single knight.

The massive lance itself as most movies acurateky reproduce are wolden composite with iron tip front and counterweight. This were carried in the courch lance styled and brached against the body. IRRC the weight would have been 20kg for plate and chain (average) sword shield lance would have been 10kg difficult be still possible to move and fight independenly once un horsed.

Firstly the charge itself was extremely unsettling especially against infantry or any light amoured forces. Most would have not recieved a calvary charge so the earthshacking sound and sight of the knights would be un-nerving and many simply broke.

Once the knights lances did hit its target i assume infantry The lance speed would has simply annihilated the target and thrown it back into the back ranks. The lance would have snapped by then thought knights could still use to impale onto another target. The ranks recieving the charge thrown back and boweled over would be disorganised and several men would be thrown down and injured / dying / dead already. The knight would used the broken lance again continuing to drive in. And the same effect again the horse itself and its massive weight capable to kicking biting would break bones throw men to the gound with horrendous injuries.
Once the momentom of the charge was spent often having plowed all the way through the formation. Then hand weapons like a mace or sword was used in the general melee.

the force of impact would have been several tons (especially the guy on the recieving end of the lance)
 
My impression was that a plate armoured knight had enough impact at full charge to be able to simply trample any infantry short of pike or haleberd that came in it's way. If impalin your enemy didn't do the trick, a ton or two of horse, rider and armour ought to do the trick.
 
My impression was that a plate armoured knight had enough impact at full charge to be able to simply trample any infantry short of pike or haleberd that came in it's way. If impalin your enemy didn't do the trick, a ton or two of horse, rider and armour ought to do the trick.
Well, it's a race between them. Heavy cav. can punch through most things if doing it right. Otoh already in the Middle Ages you had infantry in tight formations bringing down knights with poleweapons and killing them with daggers. This was a favourite tactic of mercenaries already in the 12th c.

There was an aspect of class warfare involved too. Nobles wouldn't kill but capture each other for ransom. The mercenaries were ever so happy killing them instead using their "ignoble" weapons; polearms, daggers and crossbows. Which meant they were feared and hated by the nobles who tended to massacre captured mercenaries. Hiring mercenaries even troubled the papacy, which condemed the practice (it seems to have upset them how they messed up the social hierarchy.) If anything this indicates that good infantry certainly could handle a fight with the noble cavalry in the MA. In fact you tended to rely on levied pesants and mounted knights partly because better infantry was potentially threatening to the nobles.

This was true for the north French at least. In southern France the great lords tended to wage wars by hiring large amounts of mercenaries to complement their forces. This was actually one of the things specified in the papal declaration of the Albigensian crusade in 1208, that the southern lords had to stop this dangerous practice of hiring mercenaries (besides rooting out the cathar heresy and stop appointing Jews for public office).

There obviously was a lot of things things on a battlefield, and certainly in a siege, which was the most common form of military action of the time, where heavy knights charging was pretty useless.

You can find this in sources like Jean de Joinville's "Life of St Louis", when relating Louis' failed crusade to Egypt, the super-aristocrat de Joinville constantly tries to blacken the king's engineers, a bunch of highly professional commoners, while at the same time it's abundantly clear that the only people who allowed Louis' army to make any headway whatsoever in Egypt was the royal engineers. (You march the army through the Nile delta to the next arm of the river, then the engineers dam the river in front of you and make it pass behind the army, which can go on advancing. Very slow and very hard and difficult work.)

Joinville is also prone to rate a military actions as "noble" or "ignoble" depending on what weapons were used in a fashion that seems typical for medieval warrior-aristocrats. Swords and maces are good. Crossbows, polearms and daggers are bad. He's deeply troubled by watching the kings brother, duke Charles of Anjou, in his frustration over not being able to get at the Egyptian defenders, pick up a crossbow and spend the night taking pot-shots at them across the river. That was stooping to the level of commoners! (Of course Charles of Anjou has come down as one of the big bastards of history.)
 
Good post: (above)

Though the examples sighted were more the incompetence of the commanders then the soliders. Arigicourt is classic exmple the french plan actually would have smashed the the english apart had it been correctly executed.

French crossbow men in front of the men at arms to soften the english until bolt were exhausted. Knight to attack while this was happeneing as it would provide cover then infantry to engage the engish forces. This went all peral shaped as the crossbow men were pushed backed. Knight charged in an illcoherent manner and infantry charged without any crossbow cover.

(as we can see crossbows were used. though we are talking about different periods)
 
Lances were primarily used for jousting. If neither Knight was dismounted after the the lances were broken they would switch to swords.

Most real combat was with swords, polearms and maces.

1- Lancers killed there were numerous fatalities and injuries
2- lancers were then changed for tournemnts use while the deadly version was reserved for warfare.
 
1- Lancers killed there were numerous fatalities and injuries
2- lancers were then changed for tournemnts use while the deadly version was reserved for warfare.

Some lances were used for warfare and they can be very deadly but I doubt if they were used as often as other medieval weaponry.
 
I was under the impression that not all of the cavalry was super-heavy knights. That behind the full-plate knights (indeed sometimes behind but within the same formations) were lighter cavalry who could more efectivly ride down the infantry the heavy knights had broken. I cant find anything about this, have I just made this up?
 
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