Question about possible exploit

[Cromagnus]

Reading the rules on selling cities, it says that you can reacquire gifted cities, as long as you didn't sell them. What I want to verify, before I waste my time, is whether this would be considered an exploit in the following context: Culture victory via total domination.

Step 1) Capture/raze every city on the map except one capital. (Lisbon for example) Make peace.
Step 2) Gift the first capital you took to Portugal. (Venice for example)
Step 3) Wait for peace treaty to expire and recapture Venice, liberating it.
Step 4) Capture Lisbon.
Step 5) Music bomb Venice.

Basically, what I'm trying to achieve is an early cultural victory by music-bombing an opponent who hasn't been around to gather culture. To do this, I (or someone) has to wipe them out, then later restore a capital. If this is considered an exploit, I'll do it the hard way, which is to say: Fill the map with equal parts warmongers and victims (I'm looking at you Venice!) to ensure someone gets wiped out.

But, before I wasted my time attempting what is a very non-trivial strategy to execute, I wanted to confirm that at least one of these two approaches wouldn't be considered an exploit.

 

[Moriarte]

Is January the month of exploits? Sounds 100% legal to me though. The rule says that as long you gift them, not sell them..

By the way there will be no need in step 5. Liberated Venice will be converted in a few turns, provided your tourism is strong.

Oh, and you're probably looking at a faster finish time while striking balance between tourism and war - Investing that much into war will make your tourism suffer, obviously. And you can't take every single city of theirs (on deity) in a reasonable time frame. Why not just take caps from couple of runaways (coastal guys even easier to kill) and then consolidate to bulb your musicians, eventually?

The big question is: how to forbid using science overflow mechanic for deity CV?

I decided to stop playing CiV until this gets addressed in one form or the other. Very game breaking.

 

[Denniz]

Reading the rules on selling cities, it says that you can reacquire gifted cities, as long as you didn't sell them. What I want to verify, before I waste my time, is whether this would be considered an exploit in the following context: Culture victory via total domination.

Step 1) Capture/raze every city on the map except one capital. (Lisbon for example) Make peace.
Step 2) Gift the first capital you took to Portugal. (Venice for example)
Step 3) Wait for peace treaty to expire and recapture Venice, liberating it.
Step 4) Capture Lisbon.
Step 5) Music bomb Venice.

Basically, what I'm trying to achieve is an early cultural victory by music-bombing an opponent who hasn't been around to gather culture. To do this, I (or someone) has to wipe them out, then later restore a capital. If this is considered an exploit, I'll do it the hard way, which is to say: Fill the map with equal parts warmongers and victims (I'm looking at you Venice!) to ensure someone gets wiped out.

But, before I wasted my time attempting what is a very non-trivial strategy to execute, I wanted to confirm that at least one of these two approaches wouldn't be considered an exploit.

The exploit is about using the tactic to milk the AI for Gold.

Your cultural victory tactic seem fine. It is not like you plan to do it more than once.

Go for it.

 

[sanabas]

I decided to stop playing CiV until this gets addressed in one form or the other. Very game breaking.

Yeah, I feel a couple of long EU4/CK2 games coming on.

Might make an attempt at gauntlets/challenges, but suspect my civ V involvement for the next month or two will mostly just be checking games.

 

[Cromagnus]

Well, I answered my own question. You can't liberate a city that you originally captured... at least not while it's in revolt. I experimented with this, wiped out Songhai, gifted his capital to someone, DoW'd, them, captured it back, and Liberate was not an option.

So, it looks like I'd have to find someone else to do my dirty work for me anyway. Unless, like I said, the reason it wouldn't let me Liberate was that it was still in revolt from transferring from my ownership. That could be it... But it asked me if I wanted to puppet or annex again, so it seems like the game recognizes that it's not your city. /shrug

Anyway, to answer your question Moriarte, I do believe I can wipe out the map completely by t200 or so. Which would allow me to only have to influence one civ with no culture. I don't believe one could pull off a t200 CV any other way. Maybe someone with mad skills could do it, but I doubt even the traditional mixed domination CV could overtake all that built up culture by t200. On pangaea it might be a different story.

Whereas, the tourism I'd get from captured Great Works should be enough (with a golden age and music bomb) to overtake a previously wiped out civ immediately. I figure that most AI haven't accumulated more than 2000 culture by t100. A couple music bombs during a golden age should be enough for that even without the internet or international games.

Anyway, I just thought it would be fun to try, especially if I managed to post a record time.

As for the exploit, I'm fairly certain it's detectable by the pattern. It's pretty much either Sailing or maybe Bronzeworking, one tech per turn all the way to an expensive tech. Dead giveaway. The notification log should show that, assuming the HOF guys have time to check that. I assume they're using a tool though, not visually inspecting every save file by loading it up.

EDIT: Side note, I was experimenting with Brazil Continents high sea level, and ended up starting next to Songhai. I decided to take him out immediately... I didn't even bother to explore. I manage to cap both his cities by t70. My most efficient CB rush ever... only thing was... I still hadn't met anyone else. Sure enough, we were the only ones on the island, as I soon discovered. Argh!! Would have been a perfect start for what I have in mind, if it wasn't for that. My CB army was rocking and he built Statue of Zeus for me! Sigh.

 

[joshua43214]

The big question is: how to forbid using science overflow mechanic for deity CV?

I decided to stop playing CiV until this gets addressed in one form or the other. Very game breaking.

I think this might actually be easy to police. Since (for an SV atleast) it takes ~30turns to research out the tech tree, just require a 5th save ~40 turns from the end, or keep using the 4 save method and require the last save be ~40 turns form the end, and have the second save be at about T135 to catch folks using it for arty rush. It would take some experimentation to find the right numbers.

Yeah, I feel a couple of long EU4/CK2 games coming on.

Might make an attempt at gauntlets/challenges, but suspect my civ V involvement for the next month or two will mostly just be checking games.

I feel exactly the same way. I am sure I have inadvertently used this exploit in the past, and I find it difficult to not leverage now. Especially in high level Pangaea maps where I would not research the sailing techs until late.

I have serious doubts this will ever be fixed. I just discovered Everquest Project 1999 and I think I might go there for a long while after I play out the Skyrim expansions I just picked up on sale

 

[Peets]

Yeah, I feel a couple of long EU4/CK2 games coming on.

Might make an attempt at gauntlets/challenges, but suspect my civ V involvement for the next month or two will mostly just be checking games.

I just bought EU4
CK2 is?

 

[pvtjava]

I am sure I have inadvertently used this exploit in the past,... Especially in...Pangaea maps where I would not research the sailing techs until late.

I play almost exclusively Pangaea and sometimes I do not research Sailing until post-Sci Theory. The indicator will usually say Sailing-1 Turn, Optics-2 turns, Compass 4-turns, but it seemed like each one would take only one turn(No burning GS, just regular research.) Not OP, but a little quicker.

I have serious doubts this will ever be fixed.

Maybe if they just don't calculate overflow when you burn GS. Doesn't seem impossible, but will they actually take the time to do it?

 

[Cromagnus]

I think this might actually be easy to police. Since (for an SV atleast) it takes ~30turns to research out the tech tree, just require a 5th save ~40 turns from the end, or keep using the 4 save method and require the last save be ~40 turns form the end, and have the second save be at about T135 to catch folks using it for arty rush. It would take some experimentation to find the right numbers.




I feel exactly the same way. I am sure I have inadvertently used this exploit in the past, and I find it difficult to not leverage now. Especially in high level Pangaea maps where I would not research the sailing techs until late.

I have serious doubts this will ever be fixed. I just discovered Everquest Project 1999 and I think I might go there for a long while after I play out the Skyrim expansions I just picked up on sale

Agreed, it's hard not to leverage, because it comes up so often. I almost always find myself with a GS to burn and a low-level tree unexplored. With or without the Resolution, it's just right there every time.

Also, curse you for informing me that Project 1999 is a thing.

 

[Cromagnus]

Is January the month of exploits? Sounds 100% legal to me though. The rule says that as long you gift them, not sell them..

By the way there will be no need in step 5. Liberated Venice will be converted in a few turns, provided your tourism is strong.

Oh, and you're probably looking at a faster finish time while striking balance between tourism and war - Investing that much into war will make your tourism suffer, obviously. And you can't take every single city of theirs (on deity) in a reasonable time frame. Why not just take caps from couple of runaways (coastal guys even easier to kill) and then consolidate to bulb your musicians, eventually?

The big question is: how to forbid using science overflow mechanic for deity CV?

I decided to stop playing CiV until this gets addressed in one form or the other. Very game breaking.

Moriarte, maybe we should look at this another way. It probably doesn't belong on the HOF forums, but how about an Overflow Exploit Challenge to see who can engineer the fastest victory via this exploit. That could actually be fun, and not a waste of time. It might even draw dev attention to the exploit.

Besides, I think it's fun to play with. Is the fastest victory XCom? Tanks? Cultural? Diplomatic? Maybe it's actually Science. I think this could be a fun challenge.

On second thought, maybe we *should* make it a HOF challenge so the staff can have some concrete examples to examine for patterns. What say the HOF staff?

Anyway, I'll let the staff give their feedback first, then I'm going to create an "official" challenge thread, either here or in the Strategy & Tips forum.

 

[sanabas]

I just bought EU4
CK2 is?

awesome.

And called Crusader Kings. It's another one by paradox, similar but different to EU/Victoria.

 

[pvtjava]

Sorry for quoting myself, but I wanted to put these two thoughts together.

... don't calculate overflow when you burn GS.

Base on amount of overflow.
If (amount of overflow > next tech cost), then (use a formula that slightly reduces instead of increases overflow).

 

[beetle]

You now play at such an extreme level you have forgotten stuff!

You can't liberate a city that you originally captured... at least not while it's in revolt. I experimented with this, wiped out Songhai, gifted his capital to someone, DoW'd, them, captured it back, and Liberate was not an option.

The “in revolt” bit is not relevant. The problem is that you don’t get the option to liberate cities from a civ which was eliminated while you were at war with them. Even if someone else wipes them out, if they went extinct while you were still at war with them, liberate will not be an option. So yes, someone else will have to do your dirty work for you anyway...