question about why desert folklore isn't giving faith

[Greasy Dave]

So, I have a city with a population of 6. It had the lightning symbol for my pantheon and gave faith on desert tiles.

I founded my religion. Now the city has stopped giving faith from desert tiles and I'm really uncertain why. It hasn't been converted to a foreign religion. I checked. The population is 6. There are two followers of my religion. And then there is the number 2 next to a lightning sign - does that means the desert folklore pantheon, ie two followers of my pantheon and two followers of my religion? There are no other religions in the city.

Could the 2 and the lightning symbol be connected to a foreign pantheon? Can I check the pantheon somehow, hovering the mouse over it didn't seem to work.

It makes no sense. Why would 2 followers of my religion and two followers of my pantheon cancel out the effect of the pantheon?

I've attached a screenshot,

 

[The Pilgrim]

I assume you founded Sigtuna after founding religion? In this case pantheon will kick in only when your religion spreads there. I bet once you reach 3 followers, it'll work.

 

[Peng Qi]

City has no dominant religion and therefore does not grant any religious bonuses. Plus, when you found your religion it takes your old pantheon bonus and your old pantheon loses its bonus, so if your pantheon were still dominant there it would still have no bonus.

 

[Browd]

I assume you founded Sigtuna after founding religion? In this case pantheon will kick in only when your religion spreads there. I bet once you reach 3 followers, it'll work.

Seems clear that Sigtuna was founded before the religion was founded. The screenshot shows 2 religion followers and 2 pantheon followers -- neither majority. If Sigtuna was founded after the religion, there would be no pantheon followers. Pantheons don't spread through pressure; they automatically appear in every city that is settled before the religion is founded and never appear in cities that are settled after founding a religion.

City has no dominant religion and therefore does not grant any religious bonuses. Plus, when you found your religion it takes your old pantheon bonus and your old pantheon loses its bonus, so if your pantheon were still dominant there it would still have no bonus.

Agree with first sentence, but not the second. Your pantheon belief does get incorporated as a belief in your religion (when you found, your religion will consist of your founder belief, one follower belief and your old pantheon belief), but any secondary city that had your pantheon belief at the time you founded your religion will continue to enjoy the benefits of that pantheon belief until your pantheon ceases to be majority in that city.

The screenie shows that his religion is spreading (through pressure) into this city, with the result that neither his religion nor his pantheon is majority. As a result, yes, right now he gets no benefit from either his old pantheon or his pantheon as incorporated into his religion. But give it a few turns--religious pressure will flip a another follower or two and his religion will become majority in this city.

 

[Greasy Dave]

Seems clear that Sigtuna was founded before the religion was founded.

Correct

The screenie shows that his religion is spreading (through pressure) into this city, with the result that neither his religion nor his pantheon is majority. As a result, yes, right now he gets no benefit from either his old pantheon or his pantheon as incorporated into his religion. But give it a few turns--religious pressure will flip a another follower or two and his religion will become majority in this city.

Which explains the results I'm seeing. And makes me think that the devs didn't think it through properly. You get an even number of religious followers and pantheon followers in a city and your pantheon belief stops working even though all the followers follow it? That's just pants.

 

[Browd]

Yeah, but it's transitory.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Wut? You lost me. The pantheon was there, and now when city is pressured it goes away until it becomes religious? Then the pantheon will be back again? Yeah, not very thought through mechanics.

 

[Browd]

Stand-alone pantheon will disappear. But, the same pantheon belief is incorporated into his religion, so when his religion becomes majority, he will start generating desert faith in that city again.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Makes no sense to me. Also, apparently, if you adopt someone else's religion without founding pantheon prior to that and then start generating faith, you'll have to pick a pantheon eventually (unless you can't) and it'll kick foreign religion out from your capital. Go figure.

 

[compwiz1202]

I also found out something weird about pantheons. I enhanced my religion and got an inquisitor. I had a far away city that had no religious pressure, so I took my inquisitor there and using it wiped out the pantheon, so the city had no religion whatsoever until my religion finally spread there.

I do agree though that if your city is split between your religion and pantheon, the pantheon belief should still apply.

 

[Peng Qi]

Which explains the results I'm seeing. And makes me think that the devs didn't think it through properly. You get an even number of religious followers and pantheon followers in a city and your pantheon belief stops working even though all the followers follow it? That's just pants.

Actually what I imagine happened here is that your city grew faster than your religion could keep up. Basically, cities have a hidden value of "points" of religious, pantheon, and non-religious citizens. Comparing the ratios of these points give the number of followers. For example, if you and an opposing civ were to both spread religion to a city with no current "points" and no pressure from any nearby civ, the population would divide perfectly evenly and have no dominant religion (1000 points vs 1000 points). I think what happened here (given that you haven't been getting any DF points for some time presumably) is the city looked something like this:

500 pantheon points
then population growth created a number of "non-religious" citizens; let's say 400 points
then your religion spread here, let's say for 500 points again.

In this situation the total points are 1400, and for any religion to become dominant it would need 701 points. Ergo, your religion spreading here actually increased the total point pool and removed the dominance of the pantheon and does not yet have enough points to be dominant itself. I suppose this because I've seen cities with size 4 and 2 followers each of 2 different religions have a dominant religion.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Isn't it 100 points per one citizen/population? (+9 pressure keeps adding on up until 100 in order to convert a single citizen/population)

 

[Peng Qi]

I don't think so. I mean, if you burn a missionary and your opponent does, that's 2K points in the city, but each of you would have half, so it must care about ratio.

 

[compwiz1202]

What I think is weird is it just goes about majority amongst what is in the city and not majority of the total citizens. Like lets say you have a 10 pop city. If you had four religious, and six non-religious (no pantheon, either), it would show no religion or pantheon, but if you had four religious, three pantheon and three non-religious, it would show the religion icon and you would get all your beliefs. It should require you to have more than half of the total citizens to become dominant.

And yea I never understood that religious strength stuff. A great prophet wipes out all opposing religion and makes most of the citizens their religion no matter how big the city is, but a missionary can also be 1000 but barely converts any citizens of even a small city.