Questions on an OCC game

[Methos]

Just finished an OCC challenge where I attempted to win by launching the shuttle, unfortunately I won by culture. The bad thing was I had three of the parts built but didn’t know how to slow the culture down. Anyway, I had several comments on my game and hoped other OCC players would enlighten me with their experience. BTW I played this on Regent difficulty.

Reputation: Amazingly this was extremely easy to keep everyone on gracious. Two of the AI’s were scientific so I kept gifting them into the next age to take advantage of their free tech. I gifted the third AI as well just to keep everyone equal. Only once did I screw up my rep and that was when I had traded one of my wines to Byzantine and their border overtook the wine. They dropped to polite but I gifted them something and brought them immediately back to gracious. Is it this easy to keep everyone so happy? Everyone warred around me and never once was I involved in a war. I’m assuming rep would be tougher on a more difficult level.

Culture: I realize now that I should have sold the temple early, as well as the cathedral and any other useless culture producer. I didn’t think about it until towards the end of my game how close I was to 20k. I built several wonders that I probably shouldn’t have (GL- I thought I would be behind in techs; UnSuff- I didn’t want the AI’s to reduce ww), and probably one or two others. When I try this again I’ll pay more attention to CAII culture counter so as not to accidentally win by culture.

Science: I believe I should have gifted the AI’s more often as I typically had to gift them several techs to reach the new age. Plus the AI’s just weren’t researching like I expected them too. Rather odd.

Mine/Irrigate: I wasn’t for sure if I should have watered my land or not, so all the way up to the end everything was mine. Towards the very end Babylon crept over the 20 pop mark so I had to water one tile so as the city wouldn’t starve. At the end I was producing around 70 odd shields a turn. Out of curiosity I played a few turns after the game ended and changed all tiles to irrigation. My shields dropped to 32 a turn. Should I have watered entirely, more, or left it as it was?

For those interested in helping me know what my mistakes are I have attached several images below. I posted these hoping to get feedback on my mistakes, so please feel free to criticize. This was my first attempt at an OCC and I know I made a lot of mistakes. I plan on attempting this again but would prefer to be a little more knowledgeable on how to go about it. Thanks.

Edit:The images were way too big, cut them down to better fit.

Edit2: For those of you interested I have attached the game below.

 

[bingen]

Reputation: Since you are so small and insignificant you are almost always ignored, even more so on harder difficulties. I am only regularily attacked in OCC when my neighbor has noone else to attack. Also, I find myself more often assaulted on tiny maps, especially archipelagos forsome reason.

Culture: You have to not build unneeded wonders if you want to guarantee a space win before a culture win. Perhaps you should turn off culture as a win condition?

Science: Just be sure to sell when they have anything at all to offer. Also, it might be good to gift when there is a branching of the tech tree. Possibly one of the AIs will get started on another branch than you. Or you could just sell any tech as soon as you reseach it and gift it to the rest. This maximizes the chances they will discover something for you but you may be stuck with nothing to trade when they suddenly have an influx of money. To avoid this, having techs to sell techs every 20 turns might be best.

Mine/Irrigate Having more than 20 citizens is pointless IMO, somine everything. If you have an odd total number of food your city will starve occasionally, this does not matter at all. Also, pre hospital your city is stuck at 12 and may be running surplus food, cut the surplus by foresting your grassland.

Good job, perhaps you should try Emperor next time. Note that map size and type also has a large effect on difficulty. Ironically, I find Deity OCC quite easy on huge maps (as long as I get the library), but on tiny Pangaeas someone almost always ends up dominating and winning earlier than me.

Note that walls are useless past size 6 (no upkeep though), a granary is usless post size 20, no need for more growth.

 

[Mathias]

I'll refer you to Math01 even though I know you were lurking.

Reputation is indeed extremely easy to keep.

Unnecessary culture needs to be avoided from the start. Building the GL is a common mistake. For OCC space race, one should bee-line to Astronomy for Cop's. This, of course, runs right through Education, severely limiting the benefits of the GL. Bach's and and Suffrage should also have been avoided.

The AI is horribly slow when it comes to researching. As you can see in my monarch-level SG, we were tech leader throughout the game. At regent, you'll pretty much be doing all of you own research, picking up optional techs from the AI.

Mine everything. A scientist adding 3 beakers per turn isn't going to affect much when your city is pumping 500+ already. When you have +1 food, you can plant a forest on a non-bonus grassland to have zero growth without affecting your production. Alternatively, build another worker whenever you would be at -1 fpt.

 

[gskyes]

I remember reading a few OCC space games in the stories forum, but I don't remember who did them. I do know that when it looked like culture would win faster than space, they sold off some culture buildings they didn't need. The more clever way they slowed culture was to mobilize. In mobilization, your culture/turn is halved but you can still build spaceship parts.

 

[RandomInsanity]

what are the best civ traits for occ? obviously industrious would be next to useless, as with military, unless you plan on warring to get GLs
Scientific? religious? commercial? expansionist even?

 

[Vilati Timmadar]

@Methos: You should try a higher difficulty level. Regent doesn't seem to be a challenge for you.

@RandomInsanity:
Well, in my opinion, none of the traits is useless.
Industrious is very useful, 'cause it gives you an advantage in speed. Your infrastructure is set up more quickly.
Military is not bad if you're fighting a war. Elite units and leaders (=armies) can decide a war.
Scientific is nice with the free tech, but they're just 3 techs at all in the game...
Religious is great: Cheap temples means you have happy guys and culture in your new founded towns quicker than the others and your Anarchy lasts only 1 turn.
Commercial: More money and quicker.
Expansionst: Well, the extra explorer at the beginning is useful, 'cause you can settle at strategic positions. Without him you wouldn't know how the world looks like and you could miss these positions.
Seafaring: Well, ships are good and early offshore colonies are really nice. Plus, if you discover the other continent or island-nations you can play both sides and trade techs and money...veeeery nice.

Every trait has its advantage. It depends on how your style of playing is and how you want to win the game.

 

[jm chen]

I almost always use the Byzantines for OCC games. The Colossus is very handy for money so I want to start on the coast. Scientific-Seafaring is quite powerful. I have had some luck also with the Dutch.

Then again, I usually choose to win by culture on Monarch, so I'm not sure how differently it plays for Space.

 

[SJ Frank]

Reputation:

You're confusing Reputation with Attitude. By Reputation, we usually refer to the AI’s willingness to accept your gpt in trade. And you actually lost your Reputation when your wine deal with Byzantines was interrupted . By Attitude, we usually refer to how much the AI’s like you. That’s the gracious, polite, etc stuff. Attitude is really easy to upkeep. Take a look at This Article. It tells you everything you need to know about why the AI’s like you (or not).


Mine/Irrigate:

Irrigate when your city can still grow. This allows your cities to reach larger size faster, so you can take advantage of the higher production sooner.

Mine once your cities has reached its maximum size, that’s size 12 before hospital (or Shakespeare’s), and size 20 later in the game. Mine enough tiles such that the city is at its highest shield production and produces no extra food per turn.


Traits:

Agriculture is still okay, but because you don’t need to expand at all, it is not nearly as dominate as in other games.

Commercial is not very useful anymore, since you’re not benefiting from reduced corruption at all.

Religious is not very useful anymore, since you build only 1 temple, 1 cathedral, and revolt only once.

Militaristic is not very useful anymore, since chances are, you’re not fighting.

Expansionist and Seafaring are mutually exclusive, their value depends on the map setting.

Scientific is nice for the free tech at the start of each era. Sometimes that tech can make a huge difference. But once again, the building cost benefit is negated because you build only one of each.

Industrious is nice, if it means avoid having to build a second worker at the start.

 

[Methos]

Perhaps you should turn off culture as a win condition?

Thanks for the suggestion, but I prefer to leave it on for the challenge.

I'll refer you to Math01 even though I know you were lurking.

True, I was lurking but unfortunately I didn’t start lurking until towards the end of the game. Guess I’ll have to go back and reread the whole thread thoroughly.

Unnecessary culture needs to be avoided from the start. <snip>

I realize now I built a lot of things I shouldn’t. The temple and such may not have been too bad but I should have sold them once they weren’t needed. I definitely need to plan better on my next attempt.

You should try a higher difficulty level. Regent doesn't seem to be a challenge for you.

Lol! Hehe, I can beat Regent but Monarch is still tough for me. For some reason OCC seems to be even easier than a normal game. Still, I’m going to attempt an OCC Space game on Monarch.

You're confusing Reputation with Attitude.

Thanks, I did not know that.

Irrigate when your city can still grow. This allows your cities to reach larger size faster, so you can take advantage of the higher production sooner.

Mine once your cities has reached its maximum size,

Good idea. I was letting my cities grow naturally and it took forever. Hadn’t thought about watering the extra tiles to prepare for the growth.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Re: mining and irrigating...
I've never done a One City Challenge (although you're inspiring me to try ) but I guess you can afford the time to do the same worker micromanagement that you would with a regular 20k city. That is to say, you can have a fleet of workers flipping tiles between the two improvements on a per-turn basis, to meet shield deadlines exactly while running a food deficit, cramming the food back during two- or three- turn rush jobs, plant forest -> chop forest -> reirrigate, that kind of stuff. MM; i love it

 

[sorky]

I have few questions too for OCC..

Which government did you chose?
I'm playing an OCC/Semi-Deity/20k/no-military and have just finished the Shakespear thing.. I'm wondering if fast workers is oki for 3-4 anarchy turn (for democraty)? I think there is no beaker/shield bonus in this gov (instead of republic). Civilopedia say "more commerce and production" but it's for corruption purpose i think?
It's a long time ago since I played a democratic civ ^^ I think there's no commerce bonus but I could be wrong (a colossus on every cities...)

So republic or democracy?

 

[CyberChrist]

@Vilati Timmadar:
You seem to be missing the point - which is "what traits are the most usefull in an OCC game (One City Challenge)" and not "what traits are the most usefull in general". (I hope this post isn't going to come across as too offensive - because that is not my intention )

Industrious is very useful, 'cause it gives you an advantage in speed. Your infrastructure is set up more quickly.

You don't need much infrastructure with only 1 city and the single extra shield you get once city hits Metropolis size should hopefully not matter too much. Definetly not a super trait for an OCC game.

Military is not bad if you're fighting a war. Elite units and leaders (=armies) can decide a war.

No, unless you are playing a mod where it only take 1 city to support an army there will be no human player armies in an OCC game. It can be argued that getting all Elite units faster would be worth it - however I have yet to hear of someone winning an OCC game purely by means of Military might. Also, most small wonders require more than 1 city (due to several buildings, armies, specific amount of cities etc.) so getting military leaders is a lot less usefull. Again, not a super trait for an OCC game.

Scientific is nice with the free tech, but they're just 3 techs at all in the game...

You also get Library, University and Research Lab for half the building price (Lab not so important). And even though it is 'only' 3 free techs those 3 techs could very well be the margin between you getting a wonder or not as well as they could be a source of much needed income (sell off that first tech in the new age for outrageous sums to equal and bigger AI civs). A very good OCC trait - and close to essential in an OCC where you aim for a cultural victory.

Religious is great: Cheap temples means you have happy guys and culture in your new founded towns quicker than the others and your Anarchy lasts only 1 turn.

You wont be founding any new towns, however getting Temple and Cathedral at half building cost is a definet bonus. Trait also ensures you only have a max 2 turn Anarchy period when switching government, but you really only need to switch government at most twice in an OCC game(to Republic and then perhaps later to Democracy - no reason at all I can think of to switch to any other government in OCC). A trait only worth considering if you aim for a cultural win.

Commercial: More money and quicker.

No argument on this one - this is a great trait for any OCC game (and IMHO a great trait for all types of games)

Expansionst: Well, the extra explorer at the beginning is useful, 'cause you can settle at strategic positions. Without him you wouldn't know how the world looks like and you could miss these positions.

And? You won't be settling any other cities in an OCC game. However, getting in contact with other civs fast is a definet bonus and the increase in possible free tech from huts is also a bonus. A decent OCC trait - depending on map type.

Seafaring: Well, ships are good and early offshore colonies are really nice. Plus, if you discover the other continent or island-nations you can play both sides and trade techs and money...veeeery nice.

Again, you wont be settling any new cities - offshore or not. Gaining contact with other overseas civs faster is a definet bonus of course - and the extra trade also helps. However, one thing most people forget to think about is that since you are likely to start on the coast with this trait you can expect less land which may hurt production (until you get Offshore Platforms, but that is late), on the other hand it will ensure good trade from the start with less roadbuilding needed. Another decent trait for OCC - depending on map type.


You forgot to mention the Agricultural trait, which is a dubious OCC trait at best. While it would be a benefit to have 1 more food during the Despotic area it depends on being close to a river/lake for city placement - and should matter little once you switch to Republic. Although it would make it bareable to found a city near a lot of desert there are better ways to handle this. Not a very good OCC trait.


One thing to consider when choosing civs for OCC games based on their traits, is what Wonders that will trigger Golden Age for that particular trait combo (and IMHO GA should never occur before after you have switched to Republic).

 

[Methos]

So republic or democracy?

Both actually. Through most of the game I was a Republic and once I learned Democracy I switched to it.

You seem to be missing the point - which is "what traits are the most usefull in an OCC game (One City Challenge)" and not "what traits are the most usefull in general".

That's how I took it as well.

In truth I didn't plan well on the traits in my first attempt, went mainly for Babylon due to their cheap libs and temples. I'm still unsure as how to plan out my next attempt. One thing I've learned is picking traits with an OCC is extremely different than with a normal game. Looking on what wonders initiate the GA and how it affects your builds has a lot to do with it. Thanks Cyber for your remarks as they deal primarily with an OCC.

I did try again with the Ottomans and became a city-state smack in the middle of the Aztec Empire! Not doing very good in that one but we'll see how it turns out.

 

[henry k c]

Start playing on monarch. On higher difficultys the AI gets harder to please but stupider. In my current game on emperor everyone is furious at me. The incans and greeks thought they could unite to kill me so I wiped out the incans. Then the greeks wanted me to pay them 100 gold for peace. I took half their cities and they still wouldn't give me a city for peace.. they always learn the hard way.

Anyway.. Scientific and industrious are best for OCC in my opinion. Play persia. I always do when I moove up because it is a a very easy civ to handle.Also don't gift the AIs when you moove up, and

 

[BobCW]

Even though Regent is the "equal" level, Monarch is more even, since the AI production and unit bonus sort of make up for their lousy worker managment.