Questions on the spain lakes SS approach and ICS BO

[TMNTurtle]

After reading the fastest science victory thread I wondered if there were any competition for the fastest culture victories, since it's the type closest to my heart. I found @vadalaz and @fimbul 's saves in the HoF and did some archeology. While I have no delusions about coming for anyones records I'd like to try the playstyle out, but on my first attempt I didn't handpick my opponents and got murdered. Also, even after trying it out I'm unsure of what the best approach is to the first 30 turns or so and I couldn't find a thread on the subject.

As for the hall of famers both went with the same religion: OWN/IR(100 gold on conversion)/monasteries/mosques/SS

The only clear difference I could find (apart from the NWs) were 1 vs. 2 total monuments. It seems the expo build order was something like: shrine, units, temple if decent production or maybe just buy them, units... possibly settlers in the big expos.

My guess is you should aim to buy a few settlers, but I frequently see HoFer reports mention buying workers and scouts and there is of course enormous economic potential in these units as well. Still, with the 500g from NWs surely a settler is always best, or?

Also while the expo build orders seem to make sense I struggle with what to do with the capital. I'm guessing that a few scouts to find the NWs and steal a few workers is as in a normal game the best investment, but then what?

I suppose you don't need a super-early monument since you can probably delay opening piety until you start planting expos, most of your early faith is gonna come from NWs so maybe delay shrine. Of course, delaying the monument for too long will slightly delay reformation and MoH, which is probably bad. Any ideas for a good capital BO?

Also, settling a faith producing wonder quickly gives pantheon, meaning that your second NW expo does not immideately get OWN. Should you perhaps aim to delay pantheon until the second expo is settled?

 

[vadalaz]

Ugh, my old saves. Today I'd do everything differently!

I'll be honest with you - this approach is mostly just about getting really, really lucky, because not only do you need an early NW, you also need a ton of space, which you don't necessarily get on Lakes. There's also the threat of an AI just stomping you, but there are some things you can do to lower the risk of that.

You need peacemonger AIs for chain DoFs. Being friends with your neighbour balances out the reckless expander debuff, being friends with the same civs on top of that pushes you into the green. You can also gift them something useless like Horses or Iron or even an excess lux. I believe sending a trade route has a positive effect on relationships too, although I've never seen proof of that in the game code. Trade routes will also be useful later on when you need to focus on the culture leader. See all diplo modifiers on this page (Ctrl+F "good diplo"): https://www.carlsguides.com/strategy/civilization5/diplomacy.php

You could build units for defense of course, but in my opinion with SS there can be no brakes - you have to found as fast as you can, you have to expand as fast as you can etc. Going for a more balanced approach where you also have decent military doesn't work very well. I'd say the only units you need are some archers and scouts for barb control, CS quests and escorting civilians.

Regarding what I'd do differently today... With Spain/Lakes I think it'd make more sense to go for Mandate of Heaven first. There's no way buffing your 2-3 shrines boosts your early fpt by more than 20%. I think I'd buy a missionary for the first two expos - it's 200 gold for converting, it jump-starts all the snowballing, and in my opinion it's better than waiting for the 300+ faith Prophet. I also think that the best SS games are those where you enhance with the free GP you get by finishing Piety. Spanish SS might be too quick for that, I don't know. Maybe you'll need the Oracle for things to click.
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Edit: Actually, scratch that, I forgot this was Deity. You need to enhance quickly to secure the faith buildings. It's probably safe to go MoH first though, you should still be able to beat AIs to Sacred Sites. On lower difficulties I always try to enhance with the free GProphet.
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I was also really slow with expanding in that game. You need two expos as quickly as possible, first reason being the aforementioned missionary, second being that you can't get the reckless expander debuff with fewer than 4 cities, so there aren't really any downsides to it. Perfect play would be to secure a DoF with your neighbour(s) while you're on 3 cities and have settlers in position to found more cities the turn after.

 

[fimbul]

This strategy is a HOF run from T0 and you aim to finish as early as possible... so everything is geared around max faith + city = max tourism asap.

rel - OWN (spanish bonus) + IR (game is over by T90, so max gold before that) + monast (cheapest faith) + mosque ( city never grows above 1 so mosque > pagoda).

city prod is just settlers shrines temples army (size 1 city doesnt need anything else)

no clue about optimising the process since i only did one test run + one real attempt. best to follow advice from @vadalaz if you are serious (he is the originator of this strategy).

lakes map chosen because of NW placement algo (less re-roll) & enough space to spam cities. Its easy to get lucky if you pick lucky map script!