Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Turner, Apr 23, 2009.
You get a lab, but without a uni, it will not add any beakers.
It does add beakers. I just noticed it in the last 20K game I played and was quite surprised myself...
Here is an example. The turn before the Internet:
And the turn after the Internet completed:
I just noticed that the civilopedia in my C3C 1.22 is showing a **continued** under the the different civ specific abilities and in the victory types too. Is that a universal problem or one that only I'm Facing. If the answer is the latter then please can someone give me a fix for this problem. Thanks a ton.
Just click on More. The button is off to the right, near the top.
Yup I just tested it again and now I do get beakers, with no uni or lib.
Ok, been so long, since I built a lab or the internet. It is a bug really, the wonder is letting that work without a lib and uni.
You cannot even build a lab, unless you have a uni. You cannot build a uni, unless you have a lib. However the internet slams a lab in regardless. No lib or no uni.
I am not sure this should be considered a bug. What is about Artemistemple becoming obsolete? Should any cathedrals build on the basis of those simulated temples become useless? Should destroying a library via bombing make uni and lab useless?
Don't you hate it when the public library by your house closes and all of a sudden the $10,000,000,000.00 University in your city now needs to relocate, and then the advanced research station you work at now says that everything is just useless now.
Oh, I was aware that you can destroy the build-up building and still maintain the superior building, I often build Temples just because I know I'm going to get the Sistene Chapel and therefore need lots of Cathedrals, at which point I then destroy all those cash-ineffective temples. It would be a much better combo if ToA didn't expire, making Oracle+ToA+SC a much more useful line of approach. They kind of conflict how they are presently.
With the Research Labs, playing mostly on Archipelago I would hardly ever come across this scenario if it's only a continent-wide Wonder and not an empire-wide Wonder, as everything on my core island will have a Uni by the Modern Age, if a game even gets to Modern Age tech in the first place. I'm pretty sure it's not empire-wide, I'm sure I would have noticed all the sudden border expansions in far flung places.
For Pangeas that is a really useful Wonder for auto-Culture then. It is strange how this conflicts with the rules for the Hydro Plant Wonder, all these little twists and turns in nano-rules and glitches/oddities at least make for interesting foruming.
You build temples just to sell them later? This seems inefficient. A temple adds as much good faces as one base commerce on luxury slider, so it is cash effective. With banks and unis however you could get 2 gtp for each base commerce not used on luxury sliders. Selling temples only makes sense if you have so ample good faces that you still need no luxury slider without temples. Even then it is a doubtful move as the output of culture will be reduced.
Well, power plants donnot increase output by themselfes. They increase the output of factories. Or at least that is the way it was meant to be. Sell factories and power plants become useless. In Civ3 cities without factories donnot need electricity.
Ooo, how quaint, someone wants to argue relative pedantry.
I have been known to do this when the situation warrants it, yes. Hence I used it as an example of how we know full well that it's possible to have the later once the former is removed. It was the existence of the item in the first place which is what was being discussed. Now, onto your pedantry derail...
Depends on the circumstances.
Except when you have no need for one additional content face.
You don't say...
At last, you've got it.
I wasn't aware you always needed maximum Culture, you must be talking about some very definite specific circumstances, but phrasing your post like it's a general requirement.
Now, onto the excuses for the Hydro plant...
Really. So the Hoover Dam needs to have some people building Fords in the same town in order to produce electricity does it? Right... Yeah... ohhhh, you mean this is how it works in Civ 3... because your unsure if destroying a Library should make a Uni useless, but you're sure a removal of a Factory should make Electricity useless... because... blah blah blah...
Whew, Butercup, please don't find offense where none was intended.
Never ascribe to malice what can just as easily be ascribed to language barrier, hasty psoting or simple misunderstanding.
Sorry darling, but every time you mention that you do XYZ activity in a game on these boards there's always, without fail, some incredulous soul who has to chip in with all the rubbish about the exact correct way to play - when the main advantage of Civ is that there is no correct way to play... because there are thousands of different starting permutations combined with several completely different end goals.
But, no, there they are, every time you post... "You do that... yoooouuuu don't wanna do it like thaaat"...
And I was also annoyed that the guy didn't pick up on the problem of the expiring Wonders. Of all the Wonders in the game, both the Oracle and the Temple of Artemis stand out as being particularly frustrating in this regard.
Let's have a look at the expiring Wonders:
Colossus - lasts all the way to Flight, basically the Modern Age, by which point its passing is annoying but barely noticeable. For games where you expect to be pretty much finished by that point (most of them) it's no great loss. I like getting the Colossus, it's like a talisman of Tech-gain providing one extra city's worth of Gold each turn. Very cheap and sometimes is the only building option aside from Wealth, making it a natural for a low food but high production coastal city that's waiting for Map Making. Not a great loss if you miss it though. Great for using in concert with Copernicus, Newton.
The Oracle - Quite cheap but doesn't last very long and requires other buildings to be effective (completely useless if you've got no Temples other than it's Culture and later minor Gold), mainly works in consort with The Temple of Artemis, an extremely expensive Wonder. Having one without the other feels a bit lacklustre. Causes revolts micromanagement when it expires (or in preparation of).
The Temple Of Artemis - See Oracle. Doesn't last very long, possibly only 2 Techs in some games. Mainly a good Culture tool early on. But wow, very expensive in comparison to the Pyramids which offers something permanent. Causes revolts micromanagement when it expires (or in preparation of).
The Great Library - doesn't last very long but is a great boon if you're behind in Techs for whatever reason or if you want to sit back and do other things while the other civs spend money on Tech, such as buy buildings or pump the happy slider for growth. Very expensive. Could save you having to trade Techs you didn't bother with. Kind-of Unique with some interesting uses and is too OP to be a permanent benefit anyway.
The Great Lighthouse - Quite cheap and one really for the Archipelagos, relatively useless on Pangeas (but if it was free...) but a great defender and attacker for the open seas. It's extremely possible to have also built it's permanent replacement by the time it expires (Magellan's) making it's passing completely unnoticeable.
The Statue of Zeus - Military Units, if you have Ivory then you might as well, it's unlikely (possible though) anyone else will even be competing for it. Expires a bit too late even, well after Chivalry and since you can't upgrade them they start to get a bit annoying and only good for Production transfer or the odd game where you can't get Horses/Iron for whatever reason. Great for the BC years and a little further though.
The Great Wall - makes no sense at all really. Mostly only good for a pre-build for the sudden influx of great Medieval Wonders. I'm sure someone's found a use for it at some point, maybe in league with Feudalism, but it's pretty lame by all accounts. If it was empire-wide with permanency then maybe good for those far-out conquering places that starve down in size as you trample them, but since it expires before Cavalry it has a very short window of use in that regard.
The Hanging Gardens - Quite cheap, provides content people, lasts all the way to the Industrial Age, one of the many free half-luxury Wonders you can accumulate. Can be replaced before it expires with JS Bach's. Causes revolts micromanagement when it expires (or in preparation of) but has given you more time to accumulate other sources of happiness than Oracle or ToA in this regard.
Knight's Templar - See Statue of Zeus, only doesn't require any resources and is foot soldiers rather than Horses.
So when I look at that bunch with either good production or a lucky SGL or two or, generally, most strategies it tends to go like this:
Colossus, yes, nothing else to build and pretty positive, Great Lighthouse, mmm, great, wouldn't say no, Zeus and Knights, yum yum, more the merrier, Hanging Gardens, nothing wrong with that, might just quickly zip that out, Great Wall and Great Library tend to be pre-build storage for me, leaving just Oracle and The Temple of Artemis which I have in this awkward category of good, but not good enough, kind of really frustrating.
If both the Artemis and Oracle had been permanent, or at least lasting until the Industrial Age, then you've got a really good path to follow, bouncing from Oracle to ToA to the Sistene Chapel, but having them both expire a couple of Techs after Monotheism, before you can even build Cathedrals in most of your cities if you're pushing for Education is just so clumsy gameplay-wise, all that additional micromanagement of cancelled contentment while waiting for new contentment combined with the fact that they both cost so much together. With all the other Wonders, if there's a replacement Wonder then you have a good amount of time to build it, but with these two it's right on point of the change, really awkward.
It's without doubt that in the BC era having the Oracle and ToA feels great if you have the tech lead and production or lucky SGLs to get them, but it's so anticlimactic and so much of a hassle when they end and don't really work in unison with any future Wonders that I often refuse them just on principle of them being too annoying, too much hassle. If they kept working with the SC, then, wow, I'd be starting with a lot more Religious civs, even in Science race games.
I agree many of the AA wonders aren't worth the shields unless you're going for a culture city victory. I usually don't bother building any unless (as you said) you pop a scientific leader.
I loove civ for the competing demands of ahppiness, exploration, development, research, ahppiness and security and heartily agree there's many ways to play and even if there's a "optimal strateg" to win, it's a game and however you play should be fun!
Culture is of some importance, especially for (preventing) flips. I weight the lost culture higher than the minuscule savings of cash that also very much depend on circumstances.
i *really* am in awe with how justanick always seems to stay calm in the face of just another troll aggression. and trusting his own words, he even does so without the use of alcohol. astonishing.
Good for you. So in the scenario specific situation I mentioned, one has Cathedrals, which provide Culture. If you are not going for a Culture win, to what extent are the (correct) odds of a Culture flip in a core city which has a Cathedral (and probably Library, University etc) continuing the Culture that the Temple provided? Let's say your core city has 500 Culture and is producing 10 Culture per turn at the turn before you build a Cathedral, next turn you build the Cathedral and destroy the Temple, you now have 9 Culture per turn. Sooo... you're telling me that 9 Culture per turn instead of 10 Culture per turn in a core city is... what... a flip risk? Please feel free to provide evidence of that.
Don't get me wrong, there are many scenarios where I adore Temples, I'm a big Temples fan in the main, but I'd love to hear some justification for your ever-so insightful display of knowledge on the topic you've decided to highlight
The culture output of a temple is 2 and will be 4 after 1000 years. So it is a bit more than your figures suggest. It might be 12 culture per turn instead of 10 or 14 instead of 10 or 17 instead of 13. For the sake of simplicity lets assume that total accumulated culture will be 25% higher. Than the amount of units to prevent a flip will be 20% lower and if no units are used against flips the probability is 20% lower.
For a city to flip it needs to have either foreign citizens or tiles in the fatcross needs to be culturally controlled by another nation. Unless being very inferior on culture the risk of losing a regular city is slim. Flips are mostly relevant for conquered cities. Having a high total accumultated culture allows to conquer more smoothly as far fewer units are needed to prevent flips and if units donnot suffice for that the risk is at least much lower.
What are you? An automated messaging system on a corporate help desk?
Temple = 4 Culture
Library = 6 Culture
Build Cathedral = 3 Culture
Knock down Temple = -4 Culture
No, you don't need to list all the possible variables of what your culture may or may not be nor where your city is located, I have specified the circumstances, Culture of 10 reduced to 9 in a core city with an already established high Culture rating.
Let me spell it out for you...
There... is... zero... ZERO... ZERO... chance of you're city flipping because of such a move.
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