Quick Answers / 'Newbie' Questions

Opened up my first Emperor game in quite a while (Iroquois/Standard/Continents). In 230AD, it looks like I've got only 120 gold and am running at -23 GPT with 0% Sci and 20% Lux. Any ideas what I should look for in general in terms of remedying the deficit? I'm not used to that at the lower levels, even Monarch.
Too many units and too few too small settlements are the most likely explanation. A savegame is required for good analysis.

230 AD equals turn 139. Looking back at turn 99 and thus 570 BC you may have had 21 settlements averaging at size 3.3 and 31 workers. So that is 20 unit support prior to any other units. Still at 0% science this might result in surplus of around 100 gtp if the amount of your remaining units is small enough. In other words: The net output of your economy in turn 99 or turn 139 depends on your priorities before that.
 
I'll take a look at the videos when I have time. I did go back & experiment a bit ... did a bunch of stuff recommended & got my gold up a little higher, but just getting to +1 gpt was challenging. It also looks like I have too few workers (especially for the jungle I've got). I'll take a look at old saves, too. If I can't straighten it out by then, I'll post a save. Thanks for the input.
 
To add to the ideas the others have posted and yourself (too few workers), I think a big mistake you might have made was Putting luxury slider too low and maybe not republic (?). On Emporer, you only start with 1 happy face. If you do not find enough luxuries, that is a huge problem.

The formula for happy faces is approx.

Total happy faces = Content faces/(1-Luxury slider*average commerce per citizen)

Content faces meaning all the content faces from difficulty setting, luxuries, improvements, wonders etc.

So if you are on emporer and have 2 lux and your average commerce per capita is 2 in republic, having a luxury slider at 20% will let your cities grow to size 5, with 30% you would get 7.5, with 40% 15.
With an average commerce per citizen of 2.2 and 20% lux you would get 5.36 citizens in a city, with 30% 8.82 citizens, with 40% 25 citizens. You should always watch out for the growth of your cities and having the workers to develop it. A citizen working a grassland will give you absolutely no benefit in the game.
 
On Emporer, you only start with 1 happy face.
No, but one citizen starts content and does not complain about overpopulation. Every citizen above one does.
If you do not find enough luxuries, that is a huge problem.
Actually, it is really more of a mild problem. Say you have 12 citizens, 11 out of which are unhappy. This means you need 11 happy faces from the luxury slider. At a commerce of 2.5 per citizen plus 5 from the city tile that is 35 commerce prior to corruption. After say 20 % corruption this leaves you with a commerce of 28. 40% of this on the luxury slider should give you the 11 happy faces you need, leaving you with 17 commerce for science and taxes.
 
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No, but one citizen starts content and does not complain about overpopulation. Every citizen above one does.

Actually, it is really more of a mild problem. Say you have 12 citizens, 11 out of which are unhappy. This means you need 11 happy faces from the luxury slider. At a commerce of 2.5 per citizen plus 5 from the city tile that is 35 commerce prior to corruption. After say 20 % corruption this leaves you with a commerce of 28. 40% of this on the luxury slider should give you the 11 happy faces you need, leaving you with 17 commerce for science and taxes.

I totally agree with you. I think I was not very clear with my wording, sorry for that.

I used the term happy face because basically the happiness in Civ 3 works like that: you have citizens born content, then you add improvements, wonders, luxuries and your entertainment money into it and it will give you the size of your population before it will start an unrest.

I was referring to the 1 citizen on Emperor being Born content as a "huge problem" in reference to someone coming from a monarch level, as it does make a huge difference which many people switching might not be aware of and I was referring simply to the difference of the difficulty levels.

To show what I meant I will use your example.
You stated Average commerce of 2.5, Luxury slider of 40%, 5 commerce from city tile center. You also stated corruption to be 80%, so for simplification I will use average commerce as 2 and city center tile commerce as 4.

The formula above gives us:
(1+4*0.4)/(1-0.4*2.0) = 13

Let's try (again using your values before applying corruption)
13*2.5+5 = 37.5

Now applying corruption of 80%
37.5*0.8=30

30*0.4 = 12
That is what our commerce gives us. That plus 1 citizen born content gives us 13 and we have reached a stable population.

Now let's do it again, but this time we calculate it for playing at Monarch dufficulty.

Our formula becomes
(2+0.4*0.4)/(1-0.4*2) = 18

Let's check again with original numbers:

18*2.5+5=50
50*0.8=40
40*0.4=16

So we get 16 happiness points from our luxury slider and 2 citizens born content will give us a stable population of 18.

We get 5 mote happy citizens in the same cirumstances if we play on Monarch difficulty compared to emperor difficulty.

So under these circumstances, I will almost get a 50% higher population on monarch than on emperor and that is what I think the original poster might have been unaware of when switching from monarch to emperor, leading to a too low luxury slider and a too small overall population.


I hope I could make my point a little bit clearer. I think playing with a too low luxury slider is in the same category as not playing republic or not having enough workers. Players might not do it because it seems like a huge commitment at first, but it will pay later.
 
I had a chance to play some more last night (insomnia), and I remedied the worker problem so now they're laying more roads, mines &c., and clearing the jungle (more than I was happy with, but I've had worse. By getting rid of obsolete units I've kept costs down. My next problem is catching up on tech, which practically impossible to buy (they want too much, or just plain won't sell), and while my GPT situation is much improved I'm still behind on research because of insufficient funds ... I was shocked to see that while I'm still working on Theology, one of the AI civs is building Magellen's. I'm concerned about getting creamed by a tech-superior AI once they get Cavs (which will be way ahead of me at this rate).
 
I had a chance to play some more last night (insomnia), and I remedied the worker problem so now they're laying more roads, mines &c., and clearing the jungle (more than I was happy with, but I've had worse. By getting rid of obsolete units I've kept costs down. My next problem is catching up on tech, which practically impossible to buy (they want too much, or just plain won't sell), and while my GPT situation is much improved I'm still behind on research because of insufficient funds ... I was shocked to see that while I'm still working on Theology, one of the AI civs is building Magellen's. I'm concerned about getting creamed by a tech-superior AI once they get Cavs (which will be way ahead of me at this rate).

Where is The Great Library?

Here's some possibly relevant articles. Don't panic!
 
I was referring to the 1 citizen on Emperor being Born content as a "huge problem" in reference to someone coming from a monarch level, as it does make a huge difference which many people switching might not be aware of and I was referring simply to the difference of the difficulty levels.
Well, that can be unfamiliar, but we are talking about a difference of 1 base commerce after corruption per town. So that is very much not huge. It is a bit relevant in despotism, but once you are a republic with 10+ cities of size 10+ it hardly matters.
We get 5 mote happy citizens in the same cirumstances if we play on Monarch difficulty compared to emperor difficulty.

So under these circumstances, I will almost get a 50% higher population on monarch than on emperor and that is what I think the original poster might have been unaware of when switching from monarch to emperor, leading to a too low luxury slider and a too small overall population.
Well, thinking like that does not seem sensible to me. The formula you used is a very rough approximation. It may lead to wrong conclusions. Especially one needs to keep in mind that population cannot grow beyond size 12 for (usually) most of the game.
I had a chance to play some more last night (insomnia), and I remedied the worker problem so now they're laying more roads, mines &c., and clearing the jungle (more than I was happy with, but I've had worse. By getting rid of obsolete units I've kept costs down. My next problem is catching up on tech, which practically impossible to buy (they want too much, or just plain won't sell), and while my GPT situation is much improved I'm still behind on research because of insufficient funds ... I was shocked to see that while I'm still working on Theology, one of the AI civs is building Magellen's. I'm concerned about getting creamed by a tech-superior AI once they get Cavs (which will be way ahead of me at this rate).
Maybe you should restart from 4000 BC. Being short on gtp or research output for some turns can be somewhat acceptable. I would worry more about the long term outlook. How many tiles do your citizens(and city tiles) use? Compare that to the relevant rivals and you get a somewhat reasonable idea about the relative strenght. But in the short run those workers are quite a drain for your resources. There is a delicate balance, but still you need to make sure to give growth the priority it deserves. By which turn does your republic consist of 10+ cities of size 10+? City size has a relevant impact on your finances.
 
Well, that can be unfamiliar, but we are talking about a difference of 1 base commerce after corruption per town. So that is very much not huge. It is a bit relevant in despotism, but once you are a republic with 10+ cities of size 10+ it hardly matters.

If a significant portion of your population comes from spending commerce on the luxury slider, what happens is the following:
if every citizen spends 0.8 on entertainment but needs 1, every "starting commerce" will give you 5 content citizens. If you do not have it, you do not have it. Spending more on the luxury slider, does not change that.
If you are increasing the luxury slider and now every citizen spends 0.9 commerce on entertainment, you might end up with the same amount of content citizens as before. However if you now had another free commerce for the entertainment in this scenario, you now would get 9 additional content citizens.

Well, thinking like that does not seem sensible to me. The formula you used is a very rough approximation.
Analyzing the game to know what to do in certain situations or how certain actions affect the game without having to play a lot of hours to just get to the same conclusion.



The formula is by no stretch of the means a rough approximation; it is just the formula used in the game rewritten. The only approximation is the average commerce and the corruption. For the average commerce, we can ignore the center city tiles and the big bonus resources. Our goal is to grow the cities and see how much rising the luxury sliders brings us forward in the game with its increased population and the added commerce. The city center tile is already there, and as there is usually not more than 1 or 2 bigger commerce bonus tiles, we can assume that they are already worked even without an increased luxury slider.



One might argue about the different city tiles and for example the increased unit limit. However, we can also ignore that. We can just reach size 7, if must, by irrigating the tiles and put entertainers.

So that just leaves the question if the tile is a river or a coast tile, if it has a worked road, if it is in republic or democracy and what the corruption in the city are.
It may lead to wrong conclusions. Especially one needs to keep in mind that population cannot grow beyond size 12 for (usually) most of the game.

As it is the game formula, it will not lead to wrong conclusions. You see the relationship between the variables. The higher commerce and the luxury slider are, the bigger the impact from Just slight improvements in commerce. The conclusions are:

- Get republic, improving your commerce and reducing corruption
- Build FB early (C3C version)
- keep your cities closer to the capital
- build cities on rivers and near coasts to increase the average commerce
- raise the luxury slider as much as needed as long as less corrupted cities did not grow until size 12
- build roads and improve tiles

These are all things a good player should do and good players do that.
But analyzing the game in such a way will lead you to these conclusions and it will show you just how important these things are and what to look out for.

I had a chance to play some more last night (insomnia), and I remedied the worker problem so now they're laying more roads, mines &c., and clearing the jungle (more than I was happy with, but I've had worse. By getting rid of obsolete units I've kept costs down. My next problem is catching up on tech, which practically impossible to buy (they want too much, or just plain won't sell), and while my GPT situation is much improved I'm still behind on research because of insufficient funds ... I was shocked to see that while I'm still working on Theology, one of the AI civs is building Magellen's. I'm concerned about getting creamed by a tech-superior AI once they get Cavs (which will be way ahead of me at this rate).

Do not despair. If you are now improving, it means that your relative pace compared to the AI is improving, which means that the gap between you and them does not increase anymore and you did until now playing somehow suboptimal, so why should it get worse now when you play better?
If you are worried about cavalries, try to get gunpowder and see who has it, so you see your potential enemies. Try to get iron and horses to build knights. They have the same defence as cavalry, but a higher attack than their defence, so you can kill them with knights and knights are a fast unit so they retreat. Then when you get Military Tradition yourself you can upgrade them to cavalry.

Your cities should have a food surplus of about 4-5. Keep an eye on that so the commerce will grow faster. At this point, I would not spend excess money on tech trades, only if you can trade for a tech that others civs do not have and sell them for more money.

You should build library and marketplace in your cities. Barracks in most cities to produce military units, in those cities without barracks you should produce artillery. Of they are building wonders, that basicallY means that they are still putting hundreds of shields in things they might not need, and might not even get.
 
We can just reach size 7, if must, by irrigating the tiles and put entertainers.

Not necessarily, no. If the city is coastal and has no food or resource bonuses or is a plains city before rails, a few entertainers stops growth.

Your cities should have a food surplus of about 4-5.

Grassland cities or plains cities with enough resource bonuses, I agree. But, not all cities are like that.
 
With the Celts on another continent. :sad: To be fair, though, I kicked the Wonder Addiction habit fairly easily, so I build very few, and only rarely the Great Library.
The great library is rubbish to build but OP to capture.
 
? The game has a formula for the happiness in a city. You can rewrite that formula and see what it does.
Aha, thanks. I thought this is a kind of documentation. :)
 
Aha, thanks. I thought this is a kind of documentation. :)

If you meant you wanted a more in depth analysis, I could wrote it in a pdf file with a more sound explanation and maybe examples. I just do not know how to write formulas in this forum or how it is possible.

Honestly, when I initially posted I did not know in how far the forum here had gone into maybe "hidden" mathematical relations, so I did not know if this is just old news and I did not want to "spam" the thread.
 
If you meant you wanted a more in depth analysis, I could wrote it in a pdf file with a more sound explanation and maybe examples. I just do not know how to write formulas in this forum or how it is possible.

Honestly, when I initially posted I did not know in how far the forum here had gone into maybe "hidden" mathematical relations, so I did not know if this is just old news and I did not want to "spam" the thread.
Are you talking about code? You could post that.
 
The great library is rubbish to build but OP to capture.
Depends on your game style and context!

For a 20k game, the Great Library is an early 6 culture per turn wonder - it's a must!
If you have an SGL, Pyramids are already built, and want an early game break from research can build up your treasury under a Republic while the AI research for you, it's great!
As a crutch to help you with research when you are falling behind - you aren't good enough at trading techs and knowing which techs you can research to get a monopoly on yet.

It's not OP to capture - if you can crack another civ that was strong enough to build the GL's core to capture it, you probably don't need it.

Now if we are talking about building it, gifting it away to a weak civ, and then recapturing it when you see Cavalry Sir Pleb style..... we may be talking OP.
 
If you meant you wanted a more in depth analysis, I could wrote it in a pdf file with a more sound explanation and maybe examples. I just do not know how to write formulas in this forum or how it is possible.

Honestly, when I initially posted I did not know in how far the forum here had gone into maybe "hidden" mathematical relations, so I did not know if this is just old news and I did not want to "spam" the thread.
We made a bigger step forward in our knowledge by the explanations of Flintlock and his Flintlock mod, that you can find here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...bug-fixes-stack-bombard-and-much-more.666881/

We also have some knowledge by the explanations of alexman (later lead programmer of Civ 4) and some other forum members. A good source of Civ 3 knowledge before Flintlock is in the Civ 3 wikipedia in the German civforum.de. justanick is the "electronic brain" in that forum.
 
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