RA Free Strategy: Discussion

[ifinnem]

Firstly let me say I have no intention of re-igniting discussions on whether RAs are good/bad/overpowered etc. or how to tweak them...

However with the way that they currently work I have found that RAs dictate optimal play way too much and result in a rather stale (i.e. boring) way of playing. I'd like to prompt a discussion on the best strategies if you are forced to operate without RAs and then set a couple of Gauntlet style challenges to see the strategies in action. I feel like this will result in some new gameplay and exploration of lesser used elements of the game, especially in the later eras

(Apologies if this discussion has been covered but I couldn't find anything obvious, especially not post patch)

Brief tangent: We should figure out for the purposes of the challenges whether we have a Mod / or way to turn off RAs completely or whether we will simply ignore them but then of course still allow the AIs to use them
I did see this but not sure if it works Remove RA Mod

Context: I typically play Immortal and am a builder at heart which doesn't really mesh with CiV at its core. Anyhoo...

Strategic discussion thought starters
Starting premise: With RAs enabled the standard opening is pretty much along the lines of
Early writing -> Philosophy for Library + NC
Tech to Education (often getting Theo via GL especially on levels below Deity)
Build HS and fill out Liberty tree to get 2x GEs
Rush ND and PT using the free GS from PT to bulb Astro so that you can take the Rationalism opener for 100% RA output
Spam RAs - > win...

So if we cannot get via RAs what are the alternatives. I see 2-3 highlevel options, not all mutually exclusive necessarily
1 GS bulbs (yes one could argue also overpowered but lets park that discussion for now)
2 Raw "hard teching"
3 from CS allies (i.e Scholasticism)

From what I understand and in my limited experience 3. is pretty much nerfed beyond usefulness given that CS allies no longer have NC access, so that leaves 1. and 2.

At this point I am going to toss out a bunch of things that have synergy with these approaches (SPs, Wonders etc.) and then propose a couple of overall approaches combining these elements

1. Bulbs
Wonders
GS GPP providers
GL
Oracle
PT (also free GS)
Brandenburg
Kremlin

Other
HS: Free GP (could be GS), + 25% GPP generation
NE: + 25% GPP in city built
Oxford: Free tech

UAs
Babylon, Free GS @ writing, + 50% GPP generation

Buildings
GS slots for GPP
Uni
PS
RL

Other
Garden: + 25% GPP generation

SPs
Liberty finisher: free GP (could be GS)
Freedom opener: + 25% GPP generation
SR: 2x free tech

2. Raw science
Noting that this has a few flavors along the lines of
a) directly from population in your own cities boosted by multipliers
b) directly from population in puppeted cities boosted by multipliers
c) raw from sources other than purely your pop, i.e. Academies, jungle, specialists, etc.

Also ignoring (for now) all the things that promote pop growth and give happiness altho of course they could all be key to this approach

Finally of course all the GS producers above are relevant either to use as bulbs or to make academies so won't list them again unless they also have a pure related affect not listed above

Wonders
GL: Free library, +3
NC: +50% , +3
Oxford: +3

Buildings
As above, +2 per specialist
All specialist buildings relevant once Secularism SP taken

Library: 1 per 2 pop
Uni: +33% (+50% with FT SP), +2 per jungle tile
Observatory: +50%
PS: 1 per 2 pop, +3
RL: +50% , +4
Factory: +25% with Planned E SP

SPs
Secularism: +2 per specialist
FT: +1 per TP, +17% in Unis
Sovereignty: +15% when happy
Planned E: +25% from factories
Order finisher: +1 per city

Feel free to point out omissions on the lists

Possible approaches
It seems that optimal play relating to 1. is a little more clear
Basically choose Babylon, get HS, prioritize Education for Unis and still get the PT then get to Renaissance for Freedom opener

So this begins to look a lot like the RA path we outlined above... maybe the mid to late game will feel more different??

I think the interesting discussion / challenge here is how best to produce the most GSs and how do you research best to supplement the bulbs which obviously can't carry you as far as RAs could.
In Civ 4 I remember some fantastic experiments showing optimal number of cities for GS production. For CiV I remember Martin showed in earlier patches that REXing and popping one GS from many cities worked well but have also seen the GS generator concept where you lump wonders + GS slots in a single city
Anyone care to theorize if there is a clear optimal approach here?
How many GS are you likely to be able to get in say the first 250turns? We could then work backwards to see how much raw science is needed to techs we can't bulb

I also see some value in the nuances of what path to use that support the GS spamming - eg go down patronage for Scholasticism then educated elite to hope for a few more

2. seems much more muddy
Broadly speaking I can see options along the lines of (again not necessarily mutually exclusive)

• Go tall and pile on the multipliers
• Go wide and use TP spam + FT SP (incl puppets)
• Focus on specialists (esp with Korea) and take Secularism (more wide than tall)
• etc.

Again for the mathematicians among us I'd be interested to see evidence that supports the theory that going wide is the easiest way to get high pop numbers (=high ) and that this outweighs the multiplier benefits of taller cities, especially once you get to Industrial and later eras. Fundamentally this is based on food box sizes of course but since we are no longer zooming through later eras PS, RL etc, may actually matter...

Its at this point that while I could expand on these approaches in theory I feel input would be welcome and doing an actual test using a gauntlet type challenge is likely to yield the most rich knowledge. So let me pause here and see if there is interest in this topic and then we can take it from there

 

[ifinnem]

Reserved

 

[MadDjinn]

approach 1. is by far better than a raw beakers approach. Free beakers > raw beakers, especially when those free beakers are in the 1000's.

Realistically, without RAs, wide is better than tall (even with the GS generator) as you can pop more GSs over the same time period than with a tall civ.

you also forgot National Epic for the gpp +% modifier.

The other issue is that a 'wide' GS plan will already have generated a number of GS before the Kremlin, Public School and/or Brandenberg gate kick in their numbers. (less so with the Kremlin, but you'd also assume a delay to go get Chivalry before bulbing Acoustics)

As well, since the GS pp number resets each time you get one (in that city) you'd have to re-fill back to the next number. With wide, every city that didn't get a GS just has the target moved by 100. If you're doing 9 GSpp/turn (2 uni slots + HS/Freedom opener) in every city, that's a GS every 10-11 turns. Assuming the 2nd GS is the 'first' one, then it's 20 turns + 11 turns*number of cities to fill out all GSs. (max)

I can't remember the exact timeline atm, but I think if you've got 10 cities pushing out GSs, the first city will be back to a GS shortly after the 10th city kicked out the first one.

Plus, somewhere in there you add Public schools to the first cities to have them catch up faster.

Given the tech tree, mech infantry and Bships+Carriers/Fighters are easy to get in this fashion.


For SP, the AI will fall behind by the late renaissance. They don't focus on GS production like players do, so without RAs, their advantage in raw beakers will fall quickly. Especially once players show up with much higher tech units to take their cities.

 

[chazzycat]

I play this way sometimes for a challenge (no RAs, immortal level)

Maddjinn is right that maximizing scientists is the optimal play. A wide empire cranking scientists will do just fine.

I have had success with approach #2 (raw beakers) as well though. It ends up being a little slower usually, but is still certainly viable on immortal. IMO you need about 12-15 cities on a standard map to have enough pop, so it's likely some wars are needed. The order policy for +25% science in factory cities is huge. It IS possible to research nanotech in 4-5 turns this way even without rationalism. You need piety more anyways for happy with this setup.

 

[Tabarnak]

Maddjinn is right that maximizing scientists is the optimal play. A wide empire cranking scientists will do just fine.

Warring a civ or 2 will ensure you enough population, puppets, etc to stay at least at par with the immortal AI. Go wide. Sooner the better.

But yeah a no RA game is possible up to immortal without much problems if things are well done(or at deity level for some types of map).

Education is your first destination. Everything that enhance raw science is good if you put enough energy for.

 

[ifinnem]

Yeah I have played a few RA free games so its def possible
I wonder whether wide GS spam as a clear winner is true for all victory conditions or whether I need a viable raw beaker source for say diplo and or science wins

Hence the challenge idea...

 

[Tabarnak]

Why not a no GS and RA game? This should be interesting to see in the S&T forum. Deity is probably too hard for this challenge though. But at immortal level this would be very fun to see.

 

[RedRover57]

RA's aren't really needed in Immortal or lower difficulty games if you play for domination. On Deity they are usually needed unless you play Mongolia on a pangaea type map.

You also don't need RA's on Immortal difficulty if you play a map like continents with China, conquer your continent with CKN rush and then set up for the science win while staying peaceful with the other continent. Conquering your continent usually gets you well into the tech lead on Immortal, plus gives you plenty of gold to stop the other civs from a diplo victory.

 

[chazzycat]

Warring a civ or 2 will ensure you enough population, puppets, etc to stay at least at par with the immortal AI. Go wide. Sooner the better.

But yeah a no RA game is possible up to immortal without much problems if things are well done(or at deity level for some types of map).

Education is your first destination. Everything that enhance raw science is good if you put enough energy for.

Yah I agree, warring/expansion can get you there, but scientists are probably a bit faster (realistically it's generally a combination of both)

I also like the idea of no RA/GS games. Certainly doable on immortal.

 

[ifinnem]

Referring back to my original purpose which was to explore new approaches I am thinking a tech victory challenge to start - agree domination poses less challenge since I can just exploit an early advantage

I'd kinda like to keep GS in it with the hope that we can compare approaches if some people go GS heavy while others focus on raw . Open to excluding them tho

Maybe
Immortal
Continents
Any Civ allowed

Thoughts?

 

[MadDjinn]

Yeah I have played a few RA free games so its def possible
I wonder whether wide GS spam as a clear winner is true for all victory conditions or whether I need a viable raw beaker source for say diplo and or science wins

Hence the challenge idea...

well, you wouldn't go wide for a culture game, but the rest is just fine.

On lower diff. level you could get away with just warmongering to a domination win.

For diplo and science VCs, GSs will overpower raw science approaches all the time. The GSs can get the player to the next tech multipliers faster, let alone the 8-10 used to plow into Future Tech.

Of course, if you go no GS and no RA, then GEs will take over as the primary GP production. Though a few GMs might fit in if the gold isn't being spent on RAs, since CSs will get more usage.

 

[snarzberry]

Referring back to my original purpose which was to explore new approaches I am thinking a tech victory challenge to start - agree domination poses less challenge since I can just exploit an early advantage

I'd kinda like to keep GS in it with the hope that we can compare approaches if some people go GS heavy while others focus on raw . Open to excluding them tho

Maybe
Immortal
Continents
Any Civ allowed

Thoughts?

Choose a good early rushing civ like Hiawatha and clear your continent, you're then all but invincible till the end of the game. Your tech path will be slower due to lacking RA's but you'll still be able to generate a large amount of scientists for the chain bulb with scientific revolution and oxford. I'd predict victory around turn 300 and would be confident that I have a good chance of winning. Maybe more restrictions would make this better? No rationalism?

 

[ifinnem]

Maybe more restrictions would make this better? No rationalism?

Everyone seems pretty confident they could crush this so I'd look forward to seeing it in action! Even if you know you can win can you do it in the fastest time...

@Snarzberry - what's your reasoning for excluding Rationalism, its not just for the 2 free techs is it? In my mind no Rationalism is more restricting for those trying to crank raw since it has all the +x% modifiers

My preference would be to go with less restrictions for challenge #1 and then based on what we learn there crank it up a notch. Of course I'm open to compromise if a straight no RA game doesn't have enough takers.

A compromise I can see is restricting GS usage in some way (e.g. must use in era generated etc.) but that feels like a PIA to enforce / self police (easy to forget etc.)

 

[ifinnem]

For diplo and science VCs, GSs will overpower raw science approaches all the time. The GSs can get the player to the next tech multipliers faster, let alone the 8-10 used to plow into Future Tech.

Does that mean you would prioritize Freedom opener and then head down Rationalism?
What would your SP path be?

 

[MadDjinn]

Does that mean you would prioritize Freedom opener and then head down Rationalism?
What would your SP path be?

well, if no RAs, then Freedom (specialist side) would happen before Rationalism.

At least the opener anyways. I guess the +2/specialist and the later TP/Uni boost will still be important.

As per the confidence statement:

If the AIs aren't getting RAs either, then it's a total crush on them.

They'd be looking at Industrial while you roll mech infantry on them.

 

[ifinnem]

As per the confidence statement:

If the AIs aren't getting RAs either, then it's a total crush on them.

They'd be looking at Industrial while you roll mech infantry on them.

Yeah totally. For this reason I think we will just exclude RAs from the players and leave the AIs with them - they haven't really been coded to tech without RAs so it would kinda defeat the point of making the game more interesting if the AI tech pace sucked

 

[snarzberry]

Everyone seems pretty confident they could crush this so I'd look forward to seeing it in action! Even if you know you can win can you do it in the fastest time...

@Snarzberry - what's your reasoning for excluding Rationalism, its not just for the 2 free techs is it? In my mind no Rationalism is more restricting for those trying to crank raw since it has all the +x% modifiers

My preference would be to go with less restrictions for challenge #1 and then based on what we learn there crank it up a notch. Of course I'm open to compromise if a straight no RA game doesn't have enough takers.

A compromise I can see is restricting GS usage in some way (e.g. must use in era generated etc.) but that feels like a PIA to enforce / self police (easy to forget etc.)

Yes you're right that no rationalism would be bad for those focusing on raw beakers so you shouldn't really restrict it, but I'm fairly sure focusing on raw beakers will lose out to focusing on GS either way.

What I predict will be highlighted by this challenge is not just how powerful RA's are in the game, but in their absence, and in the vanilla game, how powerful great scientists are. I am leaning towards them being nerfed perhaps make it really expensive to keep them lying around for 75 turns. Combined with RA's pumping and carefully managed and it leads to scenarios like this -




The challenge should be fun, it will be interesting to see how different people approach the game, especially since you can choose your own civ. PS mongolia keshik rush requires no RA's

 

[ifinnem]

Thanks for the input everyone - challenge thread posted here
Have at it!

As mentioned above we will likely increase restrictions wrt to GS usage in the next challenge but lets see some creative approaches in this one too...

 

[Lexicus]

RAs virtually never play an important role in my strategy because I'm too fond of Domination victories, and the AIs never want to deal with me.

 

[ifinnem]

RAs virtually never play an important role in my strategy because I'm too fond of Domination victories, and the AIs never want to deal with me.

Checkout the challenge which is a Space victory where no RAs is more of an obstacle...