Railroads and Rite of Passage

[r16]

ı have chosen to discuss stuff at the end of 20 turns . Yet sometimes it is creepy . Forever war against Mordor , which signed a mutual defence pact with Numenor so that the latter's ships could interdict my trade , mostly to stop my imports of luxuries . Actually a Mordor ship waited for maybe 5 turns within the range of my artillery , to get the war escalating . Had a little fight with Numenor at the end and had a peace . He asked for the renewal and he landed an army on the very turn ı accepted ...

 

[tjs282]

He asked for the renewal and he landed an army on the very turn ı accepted ...

Yeah, once the AI has sent out an invasion fleet, it tends not to recall or divert it, unless a more urgent war pops up elsewhere.

I played one epic-game back in Vanilla, where my glorious Roman Republic had finally brought the largest continent — 6 Civs originally, including mine — entirely under my control, but I then found that I still didn't have quite enough tiles for 66% land (the Iroquois and Americans each had their own island). So because I'd had enough of warring and couldn't be bothered to start building Transports, I decided to go for Space instead. To keep the Iroquois sweet, I signed a Lux-import/export deal with them: about 6 of mine for 1 of theirs.

Next turn, Hiawatha dropped off a Transport-load of Cavalry+Tanks in former Greece, and then refused to remove them when I told him to. I had a large stack of Artillery, Tanks + Tank-Armies, and MechInf by that point, so the ensuing slaughter was predictably one-sided — and my coastal-patrolling Destroyers ensured that none of his boats made it home, either.

(Later on, he nuked my Aluminium and Uranium, presumably to prevent me from building my Spaceship; I nuked him back, and launched anyway)

 

[vorlon_mi]

By peacefully cancel do you mean let them expire after the requisite 20 turns?

Yes. After 20 turns, when I'm not considered to have broken my word, I open the "Active Deals" tab, choose that deal, and "Clear Table."

The "peacefully" was probably stuck in my head from when I'm planning my own invasion of that AI. Withdraw any troops -- or complete their movement on past the target's territory -- and cancel the RoP while still at peace. Declare the next turn.

My trade rep sometimes gets broken for other reasons outside my control, but a sloppy declaration of war shouldn't be one of the reasons my rep gets broken.

 

[r16]

good thing ı always save far too much . Numenor's fleet cutting trade is a danger , so ı end trade deals , go into war , get a peace . Meanwhile in the interim the Northmen , the source of mithril , immediately sell it to some other Al ... Wait for 20 and of course they are NOT negotiating so that ı can offer a better deal ... ı used 8 ships to block a Numenor invasion attempt at my core Continent C , have another 8 to block another which just made it across from Continent B ... and naturally it lands a third on the fringe of my holdings in Continent A , where ı was killing some elves . So , back some 35 turns and ı will destroy Numenor core and gift all to Northmen so that they will have an extra mithril to trade , safe from any cultural border issues and town flips that would benefit Mordor and destroy "my mithril" ... With one city on B , suitably defended keeps Mordor fully occupied , it will be ages before they can culture stuff it . Cheating is cool ı gotta say .

 

[46thCharlemagne]

The 20 turns is the minimum length for a deal. Just because an RoP has lasted that long, doesn't necessarily mean that it will expire automatically.

AFAIK, an RoP (or any other deal) will only 'expire' if one or the other party paid up-front goods (a tech, or lump-sum gold). Conversely -- and especially if you've got "Always renegotiate deals" switched off in your Preferences (which is generally a bad idea) -- any RoP which had nothing else attached, or which was being paid for on a purely per-turn basis, needs to be actively cancelled, otherwise it will just run on.

Yet another very helpful explanation, thanks again!

Why do you think it's generally a bad idea to have "always renegotiate deals" turned off?

 

[46thCharlemagne]

good thing ı always save far too much . Numenor's fleet cutting trade is a danger , so ı end trade deals , go into war , get a peace . Meanwhile in the interim the Northmen , the source of mithril , immediately sell it to some other Al ... Wait for 20 and of course they are NOT negotiating so that ı can offer a better deal ... ı used 8 ships to block a Numenor invasion attempt at my core Continent C , have another 8 to block another which just made it across from Continent B ... and naturally it lands a third on the fringe of my holdings in Continent A , where ı was killing some elves . So , back some 35 turns and ı will destroy Numenor core and gift all to Northmen so that they will have an extra mithril to trade , safe from any cultural border issues and town flips that would benefit Mordor and destroy "my mithril" ... With one city on B , suitably defended keeps Mordor fully occupied , it will be ages before they can culture stuff it . Cheating is cool ı gotta say .

Interesting. Your civ names remind me of way back when I first owned Civ 3 and tried my hand at modding, I made a mod where the human player played as the Numenoreans and had of course a big beautiful island all too themselves, lots of city names based on actual Numenorean cities and kings and queens (including special characters, I really went all out), and of course vastly superior units of all types compared to the "Middle-Earth" factions. I didn't get as far as creating the other factions as your names suggest, all the rest were the historical Earth ones, but it was a fun mod, especially when it was time to conquer the coastal areas of Middle-Earth like the sea kings of the Second Age.

 

[tjs282]

Why do you think it's generally a bad idea to have "always renegotiate deals" turned off?

Because — at least at higher diffs (I usually play at Emp; following multiple losses at solo DG, I'm currently on track for my first-ever victory) — you will usually be trading from behind in the early game. This means that as the healthy AICivs develop their land and economy, then 20 turns down the line, they will generally be able to pay higher prices for anything you have to sell them, compared to right now.

So having the renegotiation switched on, means you should be able to scalp them more and more effectively over the course of the game (the ideal is to suck up all the AI-Civs' per-turn income, which slows down their research).

I mean, say you were playing Japan or India, so were able to sell your excess Horses for peanuts in the early Medieval (because you don't need them for Samurai or War Ellies), you don't really want to still be getting peanuts from your victi–... I mean, customer, when the Cavalry era arrives, do you?

Later on, if/when you've achieved the upper hand, you may well be selling techs instead, but because those deals are for hard-goods, they expire automatically (and then you can sell another tech!).

Interesting. Your civ names reminds me of way back when I first owned Civ 3 and tried my hand at modding

@r16 plays all(?) his games in the "Lord of the Mods" scenario — which you can find in the Downloads section, if you're interested.

 

[r16]

indeed practically so . Basic game does not really cover the use of air power a semi-crazy aviation nut like me would have desired to .

(and as a closure of sorts , my thing didn't exactly work out . Too many Numenor units to be killed by my comparatively limited number of troops , Northmen failed to enlarge their cultural borders , ı had to protect the interim colony ı had established with my top units because Numenor considered it as a "single city on the continent" . Turns out there was a mountain range across the continent ; in LotM many units are wheeled and can't travel in the mountains and Mordor had expertly placed a city across the single tile where ordinary units could pass . Numenor guys would never reach the town ı had heavily fortified and they were engaging the closest threat instead . So , ı went back again and do my damnedest not to trigger the mutual defence agreement between Numenor and Mordor ...)

 

[tjs282]

I'm pretty sure that the AI can only get the production bonus from a railroad that you build in their land if they know steam power. They get the movement bonus regardless.

Several recent Demigod-level games have shown me that this is correct: AI-controlled Workers were already railing tiles along both sides of our mutual border while I was still in the Medieval era, and I did not get the production-bonus on the tiles that I owned.

 

[Takhisis]

AI-controlled Workers were already railing tiles along both sides of our mutual border while I was still in the Medieval era

Since I am trying to mvoe up to Demigod I have to ask: were these tiles ones which could be included in the urban radius of existing cities, or were they just any tiles?

 

[tjs282]

Since I am trying to mvoe up to Demigod I have to ask: were these tiles ones which could be included in the urban radius of existing cities, or were they just any tiles?

They were BFC tiles