Raliuven SG1

[Raliuven]

I don't know if it is worth trading away metallurgy for silks.

Remember, samurai don't require horses, so disconnecting Japan's horses doesn't do much for us. And since samurai are defense 4, disconnecting saltpeter doesn't do much for us either. Still, I think Elephantium's proposal will take care of any spare units they have.

Sorry, I should have clarified - my point was that if we trade them metal and even if they get MT, it won't do them any good without salt or horses. So it would be like getting something for nothing. HOWEVER, the iroquois have both so we'll have to face any units they happen to create until we can get to them. IIRC, the Iro are the only other civ that does have both.

So my underlying question is, is it worth it to trade for 2 required techs, plus a lux and some gold. They'll still need to research MT. With Carthage folding it won't be long before we can strike Rome and the Iro.

I'll start staging the envasion of Japan and kick it off if possible. I'll have to see if we have a killing field prepared to prevent samurai from moving and attacking in the same round. I'll also be moving some artillery that way. If the opportunity presents itself to get out of the war with Carthage for 20 turns, I'll examine that and then start a new war with the Iro (assuming we have no other deals with them).

 

[Elephantium]

creamcheese: Sounds like a frustrating turnset. Still, you can stand proud for the excellent work you did in grinding away at Carthage. 3 Armies, wow!

Also, at getting funny looks from roommates and guests. You KNOW you're having fun when that type of thing happens!

@trading - I'd hold our metallurgy monopoly for a while. The longer we have the Cav advantage, the better. If the AI never GETS cavs, we may very well win without ever needing rails.

 

[creamcheese]

I have almost convinced my roommate I am not totally insane.

I would go for the Techs. Carthage still will take some doing I think, and japan will be another hard slog with samurai. We will want to be caught up on techs if it goes industrial, and we can use our next leader for the MilAcad to rush some armies and use them for resource denial if we want to. Techs are more valuable to us than the AI, since we know what to do with them.

We also need to be able to see how far the AI is on the tech tree, so we don't accidentally fall far behind. We have the largest empire, but we have limited research and culture, and if Japan or Iro declare on us now, we are stretched a little thin and might lose some cities.

EDIT: Oh, next player, Be careful what you put in carthage, I am trying to limit what we might lose if it flips, don't raze it if possible, it has Sun Tzu's; a very valuable wonder to us.

 

[Elephantium]

I still think we should wait-and-see on the techs. I think we can extort techs for peace and catch up before anyone goes Industrial.

 

[Raliuven]

I've played until 1030AD and I stopped to ask the group a quesiton.

First, the good news.

Spoiler :

creamcheese didn't just gas Carthage, he bled them dry. It was a walkover for our forces and by 1020AD our units have a 24-0 kill record. When we make peace with Carthage we gain banking & pp and some extras then trade banking and some gold to Frace to pick up Astro. As it turns out, we are not very far behind. All the available techs are non-required techs. No one even has physics yet - of course that may be because they are headed towards metal.

I've been razing cities to avoid the chance of a domination win, but now Rome is starting to fill in the spaces. I'm now inclined to whack Rome - they've only got 7 cities total - and that's counting the 2 new cities they just put down. They've got about 3 more settlers wandering around.

Spoiler :

I'd like to DOW on Rome and start rolling them back and then DOW on the Iroquois. I think we can handle both of them at the same time.

Our cannons are almost to Rouen and I'm about ready to start that war, but I think we'll need to disband both of our cities behind enemy lines. Japan may be weak against us but they have enough Samurai to take both of those cities. I moved the galleys away and now I want to kick myself for that; I could have evacated a few of the units.

I think we can handle all the remaining civs now in total war mode. When peace expires with Carthage it will just be matter of rolling over them. There is an island in the north to deal with - one city for carthage and two for the Iroquios. We've got one galley up there at the moment.

Turn Log so far

Spoiler :

Alliances:

Iroquois vs Carthage – 7 turns remaining
Japan vs Carthage – 7 turns remaining


960 AD –moving units around. Advance stack on Utica (currently Carthage’s capital).
Battle for New Orleans – 4/4 cav vs 3/3 spear – flawless win, promote elite. Capture city and 3 slaves. Set it for walls. We can use it as our base. Move the slaves out to start some roads and see Japanese stacks – 7 samurai, 1 spear, 1 settler.

Boards around Rouen have expanded to give us a kill zone. Moving units to reinforce area. Workers to build fortresses on the hills with clear approach.

IBT – France and Iroquois sign a military alliance vs Carthage – which is almost laughable.

970 AD- War Weariness takes a serious toll on our cities. I miss a few riots because of it. I need to MM a lot of cities to keep them productive.

Kill a wayward NM. (1-0)

Cannons go 7 for 16 on Utica – take 1 point off 4 defenders and drop the city to size 6. 13/13 army leads the way – kills a musket and 2 NM, drops to 10/13. (4-0)
5/5 cav vs 3/4 NM – win, -1hp. (5-0)
4/4 cav vs 2/4 musket – flawless retreat.
4/4 cav vs 2/4 musket – win, -1hp. (6-0)
4/4 cav vs 3/3 NM – retreat, -1hp.
4/4 cav vs 2/3 NM – win, redline. (7-0)
Utica falls. We capture Leos.

Advancing muskets, cav & cannons on Cadiz. Advance a stack of cavs against Sabratha.

Sending more units towards Japanese front. Use cavs to block all land routes. Move workers towards 2nd core.

IBT – zzz

980 AD – Resistance at Utica ends.

Cavalry charge against Sabratha
5/5 cav vs 3/3 musket – win, -3hp. (8-0)
5/5 cav vs 3/3 musket – win, -1hp. (9-0)
4/4 cav vs 3/3 LB – flawless win. (10-0).
Raze the city for 1 slave.

Send cavs after Hadrumetum. Army heals. Send stack of cannons back towards Japan.

Hurry a few builds.

IBT – Cathage musket catches one of the slaves I was sending back. Slave is disbanded even though it is a Carthaginian citizen.

990 AD – cav attacks musket in the open – 4/4 cav vs 4/4 musket – win, -2hp. (11-0)
5/5 cav vs 1/3 musket (redlined by passing cannons) – flawless win. Send elite towards Japanese border. (12-0)

Cavalry charge on Hadrumetum – 4/4 cav vs 3/3 musket – win, -1hp. (13-0)
4/4 cav vs 3/3 musket – retreat, -1hp.
4/4 cav vs 2/3 musket – win, -2hp. (14-0)
Raze city. +1 slave.

Send wounded cav & slave back to Utica to heal. Move army into position to attack Leptis Minor. Move remaining & healed cav reinforcements outside Lutetia.

IBT – Japan and France sign a peace treaty. Why? Who knows.
Carthage loses a LB attacking a cav which promotes. (15-0)
Rome settles a city in old Carthage lands.
Carthage galley sited off Detriot. Luckily I was already routing a few cav up that way to take care of St. Regis. Divert them a little further to cover any possible landing.

1000 AD – Battle for Leptis Minor – 11/13 army – kills a musket, NM & LB but is reduced to 3/14. Capture city and gems. +2 slaves. (18-0)

Cavalry charge against Lutetia – 4/4 cav vs 4/4 musket – win redline. (19-0)
4/4 cav vs 3/3 musket – win, -2hp. (20-0)
Raze city. +1 slave.

Send cav back to heal and run into a barb camp!

IBT – Carthage pulls units into Cadiz.

1010 AD – we get a 2nd level added to the east wing for our baseball card collection. Resistance in Leptis Minor ends. Fort army to heal. Cover with a couple cav.

Battle for Cadiz (now size 4) – Cannons go 3/14, would 1 defender, kill 2 population.
4/4 cav vs 4/4 musket – retreat, -1hp.
4/4 cav vs 3/3 musket – retreat, -1hp.
4/4 cav vs 3/4 musket – win, redline & Promote elite. (21-0)
4/4 cav vs 3/4 musket – win, -2hp. (22-0)
4/4 cav vs 2/3 musket – flawless win. (23-0).

Raze the city. +5 slaves.

3/3 galley vs 4/4 galley- win, -1hp, promote vet. Wow. So much for Carthage’s amphibious assault. (24-0)

Rush a few infrastructure builds. Our alliances end next turn so I start to move Cav towards the Iroquois.

IBT – Rome settles another city in open Carthage lands.

1020 AD – I end our alliances with the Iroquois and Japan. I give Carthage peace for bankig, PP, 2 Russian workers, 24gp & WM. Pick up Astro & 3gp from France for banking and WM.

I can see that democracy, econ & Navigation are in play. No one has physics yet. Drop lux to 0%.

I think that Roman needs to go next.

IBT – zzz

1030 AD -

 

[CKS]

Looks good. Declare on whomever you like.

 

[Elephantium]

You could gift the cities to Japan before you declare on them, then take them back once we've razed their core.

 

[Raliuven]

I'm passing the buck regarding Japan to the next player. I've got a lot of forces down in Rouen and the first fortress is build. Cannons are in place and I've moved some Galleys back to evac some units.

I DOW on Rome and that campaign is going just fine. I stopped part way through 1050AD because I generated a GL. I left the game at that point - many cav still have movement. I figure we'll want to make an army from the GL at this point; Rome is buckling fast and then it will be the Iroquois turn. I'll leave it to the next player to finish the 1050AD set. Here is the Roman Front:

Spoiler :

The GL is under the elite cav on the hill. There hasn't been any counterattacks by the romans - they are only shuffling legions around. My one loss was a cav charge on a legion.

Somehow I forgot about one of the Roman cities - it really isn't much of a threat, but those archers on the mountain could be good fodder for more leader fishing.

Spoiler :

Notes:
I moved most of the workers into the 2nd core to get it working and productive. I also built some infranstructure - mostly markets and aquas in key places. I also started turning out boats by the norther island. There is a small stack developing by St. Regis for the Iroquois blitz. Our current army is healing - it is 11/14 at the moment. My final battle count was 34-1. It was overall a good turnset - creamcheese really paved the way.

I MM in 1040AD for some taxmen, but at this point I'm only MM every few rounds. Mecca is on a slow starvation of -1fpt to make 20spt. It will need to be taken off this for a little while so it can refill its bin.

**Edit** Looks like Elephantium is up!

ROSTER:

-Raliuven (just played)
-Elephantium (playing)
-TheOverseer714 (on deck)
-CKS
-creamcheese


And the save:

 

[Elephantium]

Got it. I've played the first turn, and I'll continue tomorrow.

 

[Elephantium]

Pre-turn:

Cycle through cities. I was going to turn off research, but I see that we're on one-scientist.

I do get Paris from 7 to 6 turns per Cav.

Build an army in Cumae (can't hurt) and consolidate troops in the area.

Trade WMs with everyone:
30 gp from Iroquois
Nothing from France
5 gp from Carthage
25 gp from Japan

IBT:

Mecca, etc: Cavs
Washington: Worker > Cannon
St. Petersburg: Workers
Anjar: Mkt > Cavs
Houston: Worker > Cannon
New Kufah: Workers
Aydab: Muskets
New Damascus: Worker > Cannon
Japan is building Smith's

Turn 1 (1060 AD):

Disband some barbs
Move troops towards Rome.

IBT:

Rouen: Muskets
Fez: Cavs
Suhar: Muskets
Aden: Muskets
New Khurasan: Workers
Japanese are building Magellan's.

Turn 2 (1070 AD):

Army scratches a Musket at Veii, then retreats from a Spear.
eCav finishes off the Spear
eCav kills a LB and razes the city.

IBT:

Damascus: Harbor > Court
Paris, Orleans, Lyons, Rheims, Najran, Merw: Cavs

Turn 3 (1080 AD):

Siege of Rome:
Cannon kills citizens
Miss
Cannon kills citizens
1hp off vMusket
Two misses
1hp off each of 3 rMuskets
Two misses
1hp off rMusket; 3/4 vMusket visible again
Miss
1hp off vMusket

vCav kills rMusket
vCav gets redlined before he kills rMusket
vCav promotes when he kills rMusket
vCav redlines while killing rMusket
vCav kills vMusket; city is ours!


We also destroy Caesaragusta in the lands N of Japan.

Neapolis:
Lose one Cav
Cav kills Musket
Cav kills Musket; city razed.

Two Cavs retreat at Antium
Declare war on Japan.

IBT:

Japan bombards one of our ships
They lose one Samurai vs. our Cav
Second Samurai kills him.
A third Samurai kills the second Cav from the battle of Caesaragusta.
Iroquois give us the pre-boot. We graciously apologize.

Marseilles: Court (results disappointing) > Musket
Tabuk, etc: Cavs
Basra: Muskets
Rusaddir: Temple > Musket
Bukhara: Muskets
Sulcis: Worker > Musket
Carthago Novo: Worker > Musket

Turn 4 (1090 AD):

Move troops into position...

IBT:

Mecca, Khurasan, etc: Cavs
Sverdlovsk: Temple > Musket
Shiraz: Duct > Cav
New Kufah: Worker > Musket

Turn 5 (1100 AD):

Battle of Antium:
Cav Army kills Musket
Cav barely kills Musket
eCav kills rMusket
eCav kills LB



Byzantium:
Cav kills Spear
eCav dies on Spear
Cav kills spear and ...


Egads, he's a HOUSEBOAT civ! After playing CCM, I HATE those.

IBT:

Some Japanese troops come into the woods near Rouen
Elsewhere, we see two of their settler pairs in ex-Carthage and ex-Rome.
Medina: Duct > Cav

Turn 6 (1110 AD):

Wipe out the three Japanese troops approaching Rouen, redlining them with Cannon first. Easy pickings.
Kill one of the Settler pairs.

IBT:

Chartres: Court > Cav
Yamama: Mkt > Cav
Taif: Worker > MUsket

Japan crates a new city Suo, S of Carthage.

Turn 7 (1120 AD):

Lose Cav attacking Suo
Rush a few Cavs in that area.

IBT:

Some Cav builds come in.

Turn 8 (1130 AD):

Suo destroyed with one attack.
6/14 Cannon hit Samurai near Rouen; Cavs destroy them.
Kill a Roman Musket wandering about.

IBT:

8 Japanese Samurai flood the forests near Rouen. They have a single unit of Longbows on their flank.
More Cav builds come in...

Turn 9 (1140 AD):

Cannons fire. 14 hp total done to the Samurai stack.
Oops, I attack one Samurai with a mace, and the Samurai retreats. Dishonor to his house!

IBT:

Japan dials us up, wanting peace. We decline.

Turn 10 (1150 AD):

We whack another couple of Japanese units. Other than that, things are quiet. We can declare pretty much anytime on the Iroquois (who seem bent on exterminating the Carthaginians!).

 

[CKS]

Looks good. There is plenty of open land, so surely the Romans will settle a town soon.

 

[creamcheese]

creamcheese didn't just gas Carthage, he bled them dry. It was a walkover for our forces and by 1020AD our units have a 24-0 kill record. When we make peace with Carthage we gain banking & pp and some extras then trade banking and some gold to Frace to pick up Astro. As it turns out, we are not very far behind. All the available techs are non-required techs. No one even has physics yet - of course that may be because they are headed towards metal.

I am playing with your RNG next time.

I guess I was overly cautious about our tech situation, and our military situation as well! I need to break some of my builder instincts for tech lead and needing overwhelming force to attack and win.

 

[Elephantium]

Hey, we HAVE overwhelming force We're Strong vs. everybody, and our production rate is enough to replace a high loss rate. I think we could afford to lose two Cavs for every enemy unit we kill and STILL come out ahead.

Truth be told, I was tempted to declare on the Iro around Turn 7, but I wanted to leave something for the other players to do

 

[alzgamer]

Lurker

What victory are you planning to go for? Domination or Conquest?

 

[Raliuven]

Lurker

What victory are you planning to go for? Domination or Conquest?

We're going for conquest, which doesn't look to be too far off now.

I am playing with your RNG next time.

I was surprised myself. But without your efforts it would not have been possible to build such a victory record. The RNG usually hate me, but I had so many options it was pretty easy to tear them apart. I did take a few chances with Cav charges against fortified muskets, but those turned out okay for a change. Of all things I lost a Cav while charging a Legion! After all that. Blemished a perfectly good record.

ROSTER:

-Raliuven
-Elephantium (just played)
-TheOverseer714 (Playing)
-CKS (on deck)
-creamcheese

 

[CKS]

Has anyone heard from TheOverseer714? If we've no news soon, I'll go ahead and pick up the save.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I can play over the weekend, so if you are available before then, go for it.

 

[CKS]

No, go ahead. I could start today, but not finish, and after the weekend works just fine for me, too.

 

[Raliuven]

Is there a 'got it' from either of you?

Just want to keep the game moving; I completely understand if RL or other issues are in the way. We can look at a skip or a swap, whatever works. I think we are probably 1 rotation (through the Roster) away from closing this game down.

Thanks!

 

[TheOverseer714]

I have the save, but didn't get very far on it, I think my motivation is off and the workweek has begun. If CKS can play before next weekend, he should. Otherwise, I will muddle through.