[NFP] Ranking Civs

[Jewelrunna]

I love discussion threads that compare the measurable differences in strength between the Civs - if you want to do one of those, I'm all in! I promise this thread isn't going to be one of them... it's going to be a tier list based on exploits and a very specific play style (conquer everything, no questions asked!) presented as absolute law that nobody can possibly debate, coming from a poster with a habit of rubbing others the wrong way. Doesn't strike me as a fount of meaningful discussion, but I guess we'll see.

As much as I do love reading about how Mongolia is far and away the best diplomatic victory civ in the game - which is an actual example from this forum of how he views everything in game - I think it's fair to poke fun at it a little bit.

And yeah, if we're honestly considering the Nalanda exploit in this tier list then it's not meant to be taken all the seriously in the first place.

Well then, that's the context I suppose I miss out on for taking a hiatus! Sorry for missing out on that, and accusing you of having an attitude that you didn't!

 

[bengalryan9]

Wait... what? How would China be the best DV Civilization? Hungary and Greece with Pericles are better than Qin.

Diplo-mination... conquer the entire map with the exception of one city and then just keep clicking "end turn" until you get to 20 DV points. Sounds fun, doesn't it?

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Diplo-mination... conquer the entire map with the exception of one city and then just keep clicking "end turn" until you get to 20 DV points. Sounds fun, doesn't it?

Even then, the devs nerfed that with the -5 Diplomatic Favor penalty for every captured Capital, so where on earth would you get the Diplomatic Favor necessary to win a DV?

Even more then... Wouldn't that constitute a Conquest Civ?

 

[Jewelrunna]

Diplo-mination... conquer the entire map with the exception of one city and then just keep clicking "end turn" until you get to 20 DV points. Sounds fun, doesn't it?

Well to be fair, I think diplo-nation is a valid playstyle; that's actually how I prefer to play Hungary. That said, I don't know how you could possibly consider China of all Civs the best at it.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Well to be fair, I think diplo-nation is a valid playstyle; that's actually how I prefer to play Hungary. That said, I don't know how you could possibly consider China of all Civs the best at it.

Given that China has probably one of the worst UU's in Civ 6, and that they have no bonuses towards Domination, I really can't see China as a Diplo-mination Civilization. Hungary is certainly a valid choice due to the Envoys you get from levying City-State Units.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I come back after a short hiatus from Civ to this thread, and I'm really confused why this forum in particular is so allergic to metagame discussion. Why do guys hate subjective rankings of Civs so much? It's a good way to facilitate discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of various Civs and it's a way to discuss what you perceive to be the metagame—what you perceive to be the best strategies in the game.

Probably the talk about bugs being taken seriously, and also ranking based on a city state that isn't guaranteed to spawn next to you. As someone who has Civ has one of the few games I don't play competitively, I find that really off putting.

Though I guess you can still account for it. For example, if you think that city state boosts that civ by 500 points but only 1/10 games you would see that happen, then it should be 50. I dunno.

I love tier lists myself, but you have to realize even if every civ was almost as good as each other, someone has to be at the bottom and that rubs off poorly on some folks.

Given that China has probably one of the worst UU's in Civ 6, and that they have no bonuses towards Domination, I really can't see China as a Diplo-mination Civilization. Hungary is certainly a valid choice due to the Envoys you get from levying City-State Units.

China has the easiest time building the Mahabodhi Temple.

China's UU is weak, but UUs are only a small part of the equation unless early, and the crouching tiger does boost city defense greatly. Because the Medieval era (only topped by Renaissance due to the weakness of siege and huge increase in wall strength) is one of the worst eras to war in it makes sense to turtle up in that era after consolidating conquests in earlier eras while teching up and such.

Also China's builders have +1 charge, making chopping early armies more effective, and eurekas are also more effective. Sure, Babylon is better, but Babylon is also stupid.

They can also build war wonders cost effectively, like Teracotta and that otherwise meme Statue of Zeus.

But it's probably just the Mahabodhi

 

[Gedemon]

There’s no such thing in the game; the ynamp mod adds that.

and even in that case, I don't think the <Ethnicity> tag is set for "new" City States, which means the mod will put it in the "default" group for placement weighting, which is "Euro".

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

and even in that case, I don't think the <Ethnicity> tag is set for "new" City States, which means the mod will put it in the "default" group for placement weighting, which is "Euro".

Hey, Gedemon, what are your thoughts on this?

 

[Gedemon]

Not sure what you mean by "this", I don't play civ6 anymore, and when I did it was with my overhaul without DLC/expansions, so I can't participate in civ ranking or have an opinion on current exploits.

If you're asking about placement bias for CS near Civilizations (without mods), I don't remember if the terrain/features/resources bias are set in the DB for minors, if they are, there is a call to the AssignStartingPlots:__InitStartBias function during map generation for minor civ.

But there is nothing in the base code to place specific CS near specific civs, if it happens statistically, it would be a result of the above (like sharing a bias for jungles)

 

[bengalryan9]

Well to be fair, I think diplo-nation is a valid playstyle; that's actually how I prefer to play Hungary. That said, I don't know how you could possibly consider China of all Civs the best at it.

A screen shot of a map that's 99% Mongolian with one leftover Japanese city in a "diplomatic victory" doesn't really tell me how good they are at diplomacy, it tells me they're good at domination and I don't think that's any real surprise. There are certainly advantages to going to war when pursuing a diplomatic victory but I think there is a line somewhere where it turns from a diplomatic game to a domination game. Where that line lies is admittedly subjective.

But it's probably just the Mahabodhi

Two DV points in exchange for building two wonders (because you're going to need Stonehenge to get a religion as China on higher difficulties) and an early holy site... I guess that's an ok advantage, but if you're not careful most times it's just going to accelerate how soon the AI start voting to take points away from you (assuming you actually play diplomatically and don't just squash all of them). It is certainly useful and can be helpful but I'm not sure it's *that* big of one that it makes them the undisputed #1.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Not sure what you mean by "this", I don't play civ6 anymore, and when I did it was with my overhaul without DLC/expansions, so I can't participate in civ ranking or have an opinion on current exploits.

If you're asking about placement bias for CS near Civilizations (without mods), I don't remember if the terrain/features/resources bias are set in the DB for minors, if they are, there is a call to the AssignStartingPlots:__InitStartBias function during map generation for minor civ.

But there is nothing in the base code to place specific CS near specific civs, if it happens statistically, it would be a result of the above (like sharing a bias for jungles)

I meant the OP's thread idea, rating Civs and Leaders based on spawn bias toward Nalanda, but this works as well.

 

[Jewelrunna]

A screen shot of a map that's 99% Mongolian with one leftover Japanese city in a "diplomatic victory" doesn't really tell me how good they are at diplomacy, it tells me they're good at domination and I don't think that's any real surprise. There are certainly advantages to going to war when pursuing a diplomatic victory but I think there is a line somewhere where it turns from a diplomatic game to a domination game. Where that line lies is admittedly subjective.



Two DV points in exchange for building two wonders (because you're going to need Stonehenge to get a religion as China on higher difficulties) and an early holy site... I guess that's an ok advantage, but if you're not careful most times it's just going to accelerate how soon the AI start voting to take points away from you (assuming you actually play diplomatically and don't just squash all of them). It is certainly useful and can be helpful but I'm not sure it's *that* big of one that it makes them the undisputed #1.

Right, I agree with you completely, I just wanted to be sure we weren't completely writing off gunboat diplomacy as a legit playstyle. What you're describing is obviously a domination victory with extra steps.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Two DV points in exchange for building two wonders (because you're going to need Stonehenge to get a religion as China on higher difficulties)

You don't need Stonehenge; it's the worst way to found a religion and it gets taken too fast. Just 2 holy sites running projects (no shrine) will found one fairly consistently on any level. It's also possible to just use 1 city to mass run projects if you're paranoid but that's bad for many reasons.

Or so to speak, I have founded more religions on Deity than I have built Stonehenge. That's easy because I have built Stonehenge 0 times. The thing is Henge is worthless anyways, because you still have to build Holy Sites.

I understand there are some people that magically assume you have a religion and killed 7 civs at the same time, but this is not the case here.

Also that Temple doesn't just give 2 DV. The 2 apostles are pretty handy, even if you just use them to evangelize. IMO this is an underrated wonder and not just for diplo.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

IIRC in one post later last year he said China/Qin was the best diplomatic victory civ. He didn't offer an explanation though when I asked about it.

The thread is not for you if you can't even understand this. Especially given that I've explained it multiple times but you choose to ignore them.

However I'll explain it to you once more HERE.

1: For diplomatic victory, you're sure to eliminate all Civs but one before T200(dominating before T150 on a random map may require some Civ-based combat bonus, but dominating before T200 doesn't require any specific bonuses, simply use bombers to fly through is fine)And get enough diplo points (through Carbon capture, Orga Wonder, Pagodas and future Civics) to offer yourself a +2 in the very first modern Congress, and that Congress will grant you victory, if you have Statue of Liberty ,Mohabodhi, and Potala Palace already built by yourself.

2: For Potala Palace and Statue of Liberty, there's no real challenge from AIs if you really wish to build them yourself. The only Challenge is in Mohabodhi.

3: From 1 & 2 we conclude that the major difficulty of Diplomatic Victory lies in ensuring Mohabodhi.
China is the best Civ for ensuring Mohabodhi.

 

[bengalryan9]

1: For diplomatic victory, you're sure to eliminate all Civs but one before T200(this is simple), and get enough diplo points (through Pagodas and future Civics) to offer yourself a +2 in the very first modern Congress, and that Congress will grant you victory, if you have Statue of Liberty ,Mohabodhi, and Potala Palace already built.

That's 9 DV points out of the 20 you need to win... is somebody save scumming to make sure they win every single resolution until then? Real impressive...

 

[Pietato]

The thread is not for you if you can't even understand this. Especially given that I've explained it multiple times but you choose to ignore them.

However I'll explain it to you once more HERE.

1: For diplomatic victory, you're sure to eliminate all Civs but one before T200(dominating before T150 on a random map may require some Civ-based combat bonus, but dominating before T200 doesn't require any specific bonuses, simply use bombers to fly through is fine)And get enough diplo points (through Carbon capture, Orga Wonder, Pagodas and future Civics) to offer yourself a +2 in the very first modern Congress, and that Congress will grant you victory, if you have Statue of Liberty ,Mohabodhi, and Potala Palace already built by yourself.

2: For Potala Palace and Statue of Liberty, there's no real challenge from AIs if you really wish to build them yourself. The only Challenge is in Mohabodhi.

3: From 1 & 2 we conclude that the major difficulty of Diplomatic Victory lies in ensuring Mohabodhi.
China is the best Civ for ensuring Mohabodhi.

10/10 parody.

 

[Leucarum]

The question is still the same as has always been, why bother doing nothing for several turns just in order to win a specific non-domination victory type.

It's not that what is being said is wrong it's that the motivation for doing it is... Odd...

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

The thread is not for you if you can't even understand this. Especially given that I've explained it multiple times but you choose to ignore them.

However I'll explain it to you once more HERE.

1: For diplomatic victory, you're sure to eliminate all Civs but one before T200(dominating before T150 on a random map may require some Civ-based combat bonus, but dominating before T200 doesn't require any specific bonuses, simply use bombers to fly through is fine)And get enough diplo points (through Carbon capture, Orga Wonder, Pagodas and future Civics) to offer yourself a +2 in the very first modern Congress, and that Congress will grant you victory, if you have Statue of Liberty ,Mohabodhi, and Potala Palace already built by yourself.

2: For Potala Palace and Statue of Liberty, there's no real challenge from AIs if you really wish to build them yourself. The only Challenge is in Mohabodhi.

3: From 1 & 2 we conclude that the major difficulty of Diplomatic Victory lies in ensuring Mohabodhi.
China is the best Civ for ensuring Mohabodhi.

But is China the best Civilization to assure a strong military?

Anyway, to avoid veering off-topic too much, the OP's idea about ranking Civilizations and Leaders based on how close they spawn to Nalanda is just ignorant of the various bonuses they offer.

 

[Equilin]

Right, I agree with you completely, I just wanted to be sure we weren't completely writing off gunboat diplomacy as a legit playstyle. What you're describing is obviously a domination victory with extra steps.

While it's more obvious with Lily here, I remember this being a longstanding debate back in civ5 (and possibly before but i never play anything before 5), when a good tier list pops out but claims that (good) domination traits are better than others because domination wins every VC. People were arguing that even if the victory screen says CV, the game is actually a dom game, so it should not count.

 

[Archon_Wing]

That's 9 DV points out of the 20 you need to win... is somebody save scumming to make sure they win every single resolution until then? Real impressive...

It's possible to manage most of them if you just piggyback on the easy one. However, the first WC is incredibly unpredictable because you may not even have favor and if it involves banning luxuries, then RIP.

If someone knows how to get the GPP and luxury votes that would be nice. But then again "I can't believe it's not a domination victory" wins are pretty stupid to discuss in the first place.