RAT - 01 - DG Romans

[ThERat]

had a look at the save
multiple trades possible, we can get all the 4 available techs, i am sure. now thats really good news

america and france getting closer to us, so i think highest priority is settling the red spot then blue, once we know where the iron is, we know whether we need those horses as well

 

[onedreamer]

Ok here's my opinions:

1) Settling: agree completely with theRat. Settling the red spot has very high priority. That means taking 4 mountain and 1 hill squares... seeing at how flat this world is, it's very important that we get them. Iron can't be found on grasslands
2) Tech: I think we should take everything available and go for Philosophy at max science. It's true that if we don't arrive first we won't have much in our hands... but then again, what are our alternatives ? I don't think we can arrive first in any of the other techs. Edit: is HBR known too ? If so, if we get first to Philo, we can get Monarchy.
3) We shouldn't start a colonization race with America. At DG level, with the cities we have, I believe that an expansionist civ like America would claim half or almost of the remaing western reaches before we can make them all ours. IMO we shouldn't stay passive and take the initiative. However, knowing where is iron is a must. If we don't have iron in range, I don't think we have many options.
4) MAs are good: the more the AI is fighting, the less they trade techs

 

[Shevek]

1. I fully agree on red and than blue dot for settling.

2. We have to go full power at Philo otherwise we will not get it in time.
Provided we get it what would be our best option for the free tech?
Monarchy if we have all the prerequisite techs seems best. Unless we want to go for a Republic goverment.
But what to pick if we do not get the prerequisite?
Map making or maybe literature?


3. Thinking about goverment type it a bit more republic might be better for us. We get a nice commercial bonus and war weariness can be managed by alternating between war and peace.
Monarchy is only really good if we want to be at war most of the time.
What do you guys think?


Edit:
For republic we need CoL (which tends not to be around yet that early)
For Monarchy we need Myst and Poly

 

[ThERat]

full steam ahead to philo, even running deficit, but first make sure you get all 4 techs including HBR. i checked the save, we can trade that with France.
don't pay too much of gpt for the techs, else we can't use it for the philo gamble.
if we really get a free tech, either monarchy or literature (AI always neglects that tech) or maybe CoL. it also depends on AI's knowledge at that point of time.

as for governments, i don't really fancy monarchy (unless in AW games ), i think republic is the choice. hey we are Romans, so how could we not have republic )

after settling those 2 spots, there is still room left to the north. then i guess, america has to suffer and we should pull in some AI's as well. if we have no iron, horses would do as well to claim the iron (america looks mountainous, they might have better chances of iron)

 

[onedreamer]

Well, Rome started as a Monarchy And btw the Roman Republic was way different from Civ3 one. I would pick Monarchy simply cos it's the longest to research, I don't think we'll have the prereqs. to pick Republic. Doesn't necessarily mean we should go into Monarchy... but I think it's a WAY better tech to trade away than CoL, or even Lit (which we shouldn't even trade, if possible). btw I guess we can make a better choice at 1-2 turns away from Philo

Only americans are expansionists in this world... good to know (less chances of Philo popping out of a hut). Plus America, France, Japan are around the Equator... it means lotsa of crappy jungles for them to clear
(I want to express once again how happy I am about our geographical position)

 

[dl123654]

It might be best to trade all we can, and do min research on construction. By the time we get it we could trade it for the rest of the techs of the first age.

 

[onedreamer]

I doubt we would get Construction before France.

 

[Shevek]

Our infant Roman Empire


Turn log
Trading
France - get HBR + 51g for writing
America - get Poly + 15g for HBR + Writing
Osman - get Iron working for writing + 4g
HBR + Writing + all our gold (123) does not buy us both iron working and math, do not want to spend gpt so to not endanger our chance for Philosophy, go for iron working

NO IRON, bummer
I only see 2 sources, 1 S of New York, 1 NW of Satsuma

move warrior from Rome towards Veii for settler escort
science up to 90% at -2gpt, philo due in 19 turns
Enter

IT
Abe demands 23g, I chicken out and give it to him
Veii settler -> warrior (it's down to 2 pop and needs some growing before next settler)

1. 1700 BC
settler heads to red dot

2. 1675 BC
nothing

IT
Abe moves warrior towards undefended Antium, warrior due next turn

3. 1650 BC
nothing

IT
10 shields to Rome
Veii warrior -> settler
Antium warrior -> worker

4. 1625 BC
warrior fortifies in Antium
archer from Veii sent scouting east
spot dark blue border S of France
Veii needs 10% lux, philo due in 14 turns

5. 1600 BC
found Cumae, set to worker
meet the Maya, they are up maths (as everyone else) and have iron hooked up, no trade possible
Ottos will still not part with math for HBR

6. 1575 BC
have to hike up lux again for growing Veii

7. 1550 BC
Dye hooked up, lux can go down a notch

IT
French are building TOA

8. 1525 BC
nothing

IT
Antium worker -> barracks (can be vetoed)
Americans are building ToA

9. 1500 BC
lux up to 20% for Veii

IT
Veii settler -> settler
Maya building pyramids
Maya have completed Oracle
Ottos building ToA and pyramids

10. 1475 BC
Ottomans got HBR
settler moves towards blue dot

No new trades available, all Ais are up math
5 turns away from philo, we might just get it first

Veii is low on shields and needs some MM
it has just gotten access to a BG which will help, moved worker there to mine, but still not enough shields for a 4 turn factory

I think we should press on with settling our corner and then make some preparations for war with Abe. New york seems to be the obvious target for the iron.

 

[ThERat]

got it, will play my turns now.

 

[ThERat]

the save

Pre-Turn - everything looks fine, but we are at turn 61. will fix it and stop at 70

1450BC - seattle is founded close to 'our' spot, sooner or later we need to hit Abe, japan knows MM

IT - Rome granary - spear
1425BC - up lux to 10%, maya warrior is blocking our settler spot

1375BC - Neapolis founded - starts a curragh, Maya knows MM as well, philo in 1

1350BC - we get philo , but what is this we don't get the free tech, which i set to monarchy
i check and all known AI's do not have philo...must be those 2 we have not met, set min research to monarchy (exp tech)
lux up tp 20%, cumae worker -> temple
i trade
philo to Maya for MM + 5g
philo + MM to America for Maths + 79g
nobody has construction
spend some cash to establish embassies with French (35g) and Ottomans (48g) (future allies against America)
Ottomans have horses

IT Americans build Massoleum, Veii settler -> settler
1325BC - lux down 0%, settler heads north

IT Rome spear -> spear
1300BC - lux up 10%, change Antium to temple, we need border expansion to claim horses, France + America know construction now

1250BC - lux up to 20%, Ottoman got Monarchy

Rome is building spear to cover settler from veii (both in 2), settler in place to settle or to head further north, maybe we should rush temple in Antium once we can, temple in cumae can be vetoed

Techs
Maya - on par
Ottoman - up Monarchy, down philo + MM
France - up Contruction
America - up Construction
Japan - on par

 

[ThERat]

Roster
ThERat - just played
onedreamer - up
dl123654 - on deck
rrau
shevek

 

[onedreamer]

I think we should press on with settling our corner and then make some preparations for war with Abe. New york seems to be the obvious target for the iron.

I think we should prepare right now instead. We don't have iron while america has it. There's no time to waste, if we wait that they have MDI it's over.

I got the save, will start preparations for war.

 

[Shevek]

At least Veii should keep producing settlers at max speed. If we do not settle as quickly as we can we will get really boxed in and have to fight for every inch.
Otherwise you are right of course, we cannot wait too long with our planned conflict.
Rome can produce workers (we need workers) and troops in between. And Antium and Cumae do nothing else but military. They would need barracks though.
How does that sound?

Pity that the philo gamble didn't pay off. Well, that's life at DG, I guess. At least we got something out of it.

Good luck onedreamer

 

[onedreamer]

Rome, 1000 BC (SAV)


Turn 70: 1250 BC

preflight check.
We are resarching Monarchy at min science, not sure why since none of you seem to want it, plus some AI already know it.
New York is on a hill. We will need catapults to take it with just archers and horsemen.
We are way behind in culture. Since we're not playing Civ2, culture is important, and it's not an optional
I notice Wonder victory is on. That might be interesting. I never played with Wonder victory on and I am not sure of how it works. It's not in the Civilopedia either. If I don't remember bad by the first Conquests scenario, the game ends when X wonders (29 in this case) have been built and the civ with the most wins the game. Am I correct ?
Our military consists of 6 warriors, 2 archers, 1 spearman. I think that Antium, Rome and the town we're going to found should be the military towns.
Diplomacy check: Osman and Joan can't even consider a MA against Abe. Mayas have another source of Iron in range.

press enter

IBT: french warrior/settler combo is crossing American lands toward our western reaches.

Turn 71: 1225 BC

Pompei found on the settler spot. Less corruption and closer to connect.
Pompei starts on Barracks, Neapolis change from Galley to worker (it desperatly needs it)

IBT: the french combo changed direction toward america (and gems). But an american combo is now approaching in that direction.
IBT: Rome Spearman > Settler, Veii Settler > Temple

Turn 72: 1200 BC

Turn down lux to 10%. Settler heading west, but American combo is closer. Spotted ANOTHER iron near Maya (lucky b@stages).

IBT: San Francisco founded on the western coast O_O, and they have the other combo headed there.

Turn 73: 1175 BC

nothing (move settler). Joan and Osman still don't want to hear about MAs. Found embassy with Japanese (48 gp), Toku is a warmonger after all
Kyoto has only Palace inside and is 17 turns away from TOA. They have 5 wines connected o_O

IBT: Maya declares war to Ottomans

Turn 74: 1150 BC

some MM. Lux tax back to 20% due to Veii's growth.

IBT: Maya moves troops toward Istanbul. They will soon have their GA.
IBT: Neapolis worker > Galley . Antium grows to 3.

Turn 75: 1125 BC

nothing

Turn 76: 1100 BC

We are ahead of american's combo to settle on the north western coast.

IBT: first battles between Maya and Ottomans. A Javelin Thrower wins one, Maya are in a GA now.
IBT: Rome Settler > Spearman

Turn 77: 1075 BC

Sending explorers back home, the way east is unaccessible anyways.

IBT: French building Great Library and Hanging Gardens. Atlanta grows and takes the 2nd cow near Antium

Turn 78: 1050 BC

Veii grows to 7, have to hire a clown there to prevent riots. Can't lower lux or Antium will riot (it's not yet connected)
Diplomacy: France, Japan and Ottomans are up everything except Currency. America is up CoL and Construction, Maya are up CoL and Lit.
None wants to talk about MAs. A deal for Construction or Monarchy is not possible. Increasing science fundings doesn't help much with our resarch, so I leave it as it is.

Buy Lit from Joan for 158 gp and 1 gpt. Buy CoL from Lincoln for Literature and 6gpt (we won't be able to declare before 20 turns anyways).
Lincoln is cautious now. We have 1 gp and make +9 gpt at 7.1.2
The only other trade possible is trade all our treasury (1 gold) for all of Maya's treasury (1 gold). I do it, just for the heck of it

None has Republic. Maybe we should switch to it, I leave it to the next player.

IBT: Antium Temple > Barracks. Maya building The Great Library, France The Great Lighthouse.

Turn 79: 1025 BC

Pisae founded on the north western coast corner. It will have a whale tile that we didn't see before, once it grows. Starts on Galley.
Can now lower lux to 10%, we make +12 gpt

IBT: Veii Temple > Settler, Ottomans build The Hanging Gardens

Turn 80: 1000 BC

Ravenna founded north of Rome. Show middle finger to french and american combos in our territory, they don't have any room to colonize now
Ravenna starts on Harbor (vetoable)


notes: Antium is priviledging food now, as I'm chopping a forest in its range. Naples is building Galley but it could probably be changed. Vikings and Chinese are surely west and Pisae is a better place where to send a galley from (it will also complete it before Neaples). The spearman almost ready in Rome should go to Ravenna. I hired a taxman in Veii as working other squares wouldn't really help and we would need to increase lux tax. Tech situation: everyone up Monarchy and Construction. We should consider changing to Currency or Republic. We make +17 gpt at 8.1.1.

The Settler being built in Veii could go in one of the two spots I put on the map. French and American settlers could try to settle near horses. Try to prevent this by sending some units to occupy the squares nearby. Not sure which units tho', we have none (maybe workers and while they're there they could road horses).

This is how our small empire looks like now (sorry if it's a bit too large)

 

[onedreamer]

I couldn't build any military yet. We needed temples and we needed to colonize the remaining land. Cumae needs to finish the temple IMO, it needs that Oasis desperatly. Once it finishes Temple Cumae can start producing Catapults, no need for a barrack for them.

 

[ThERat]

i am sorry, after i posted and checked all, i realised that i should have changed research to literature or sth else, monarchy is a tech pretty useless to us. i guess at that stage i was just stunned that we did not get is as a free tech and left it as it is.
i think we should build military now, connect the horse near antium and once it expands, build horses. cumae should build cats to support our move towards new york

Roster
ThERat
onedreamer - just played
dl123654 - up
rrau - on deck
shevek

 

[Shevek]

May I make some mm suggestions?

Rome is currently our only town capable of 10 spt at size 6. We should let it have the wheat between Rome and Veii for speedier growth to 6 for every 2 turns out of 3. This way it can grow every 3 turns without waste of food. And there would be no need currently to let it grow further than 6 as that only wastes food when the granary emties. Rome could pop a workers or settlers to keep it at 6 pop in between military.
Veii can make 5 uncorrupted spt at size 5 and grow every 2 turns when using the remaining 2 wheats and the 3 mined grass. That would give us a worker every 2 turns without any waste. Workers are badly needed. Every 3. turn Veii can take the wheat from Rome and hand 1 wheat to Cumae to speed growth there as well.
I know that sounds complicated but on DG I guess we have to use our advantage as humans to the full.


Are we going for horses or archers when attacking the americans?
I would favour the cheaper archers. We can get to New York fairly quickly via our road network. They are cheaper and available now. And catapults can keep up with them. On the negative side they do not retreat and upgrade path is not great.

How many troops do you think we need to take New York? I would not think they have more than maybe 3 spears there? We could investigate the town beforehand just to make sure.
And what would be our next objective? Atlanta? Or strike into their (still unknown) heart?

 

[Shevek]

Something else just popped into my head.
If (no, of course it should read when) we take NY we should raze it and found 1 tile SW. That gets us iron and gems in the immediate city radius.

 

[ThERat]

@Shevek
agree with you about NY, we could raze it and found SW on that hill, we need iron for our powerful UU as soon as possible.
I think we should be able to build up enough military until our deal with them expires in 18 turns. it could be a mix of cats, horses and archers. horses not only retreat, they also can attack the last unit of a stack without being exposed later on.
depending on whether we can get allies against America, we should hit them hard and get into their heart. their culture seems to be very low as well.
@onedreamer
you hardly get MA's as long as you did not declare war against the targetted AI, at least that's my own experience.

 

[dl123654]

Got it, will play tonight