Rat 40 - Introduction to CCM

[Northern Pike]

Sure, you could wait until things are clearer and we've built a few more WE rather than revolting immediately.

 

[ThERat]

Pre-Turn
get republic from Carthage for monarchy and 100gold
that opens up dark ages that we get from Canada for monarchy
start feudalism

I doubt we can get much more from Spain for the time being, go for peace and 2 additional cities for now

IT Carthage finishes Hanging Gardens and Kyoto gets hit by a propaganda campaign

1. 225BC
start a merchant ship to get some troops north into our new towns
gain a slave by taking out a Portuguese warrior

2. 200BC
moving troops towards Korea,
send the boat out with 1 spear towards Spain

IT Korea suddenly approaches with 4 chariots and takes out one WE in Kyoto
Canada finishes world religion Christianity

3. 175BC
take out 4 chariots and an invisible unit, gain 1 slave in the process

4. 150BC
while moving units towards the north, spot a border to the east.
moving north towards Satsuma, spot a stack of 6 units

take them all out and spot yet another 3 units, gain 1 slave in the process

IT Spain takes a city back with an enslaver I assume
Korea does have quite some units in the area, we need to be very careful here

5. 125BC
Tokyo has its borders expanded, this will surely help us a lot
I move everything we have north to be able to strike Satsuma next turn, the worker crew I brought along will help to connect

IT we lose 2 boats and Spain erases the second of their cities we got

6. 100BC
thanks to our workers, we can spot a prophet

we take Satsuma, but it is surrounded by enemy troops

Korea is willing to go for peace, so we can clear the area before doing so
defeat quite a few troops (around 8-10), then go for peace and net 3 cities

we should use this period to revolt and build up troops to take out Korea completely
get wines from Spain first for a little more happiness

revolt and our cities shrink by pop 2

7. 75BC
anarchy
we meet the USA in the east, trapped on a 1 city Island, they have nothing to offer and will never have

IT Korea snatches back one of their cities, maybe I should donate the to USA to cause some trouble

8. 50BC
we are a monarchy now
MM and for the moment we can run at 0% lux at 32gpt
rush academy in Kyoto, the city has silks road and will give us plenty of commerce
Saigon also gets that rushed

secure one of the new cities with a WE
decide to gift Pusan to America

9. 25BC
Spain establishes an embassy with us
we get a new settler that is upgraded

10. 1AD
elephants are now connected, since we don't need this resource, we could send it to Carthage for 13gpt and their cash

I would develop the empire a little before starting to prepare for another campaign against Korea
Once we have feudalism, we can build castles for much better troops

The land in the west

In the east we have our dingy that sails the seas. As we have the GL, we better make use of it to explore. Additional contacts would be invaluable. India is running away with techs

 

[Northern Pike]

Well, this is a learning exercise. Now we know that letting an enemy have peace for cities doesn't work in a game with invisible attackers.

I've got it, but I won't play for at least eight hours, so there's time for comments.

 

[ThERat]

At least, before making peace, one should be able to ship in units fast.

 

[vmxa]

I trust that's just a metaphor?
.

Nope it is just a fact of life here. I use to play on, but we had three strikes in less than a block last year. One was only 2 houses over. Losing power is not uncommnon.

My son had most of the appliances ffired about 4 years back. I had the power company put on a surge protection device on the meter, but still if it hits real close anything pulled in is gone. He lost even stoves and refrig.

I meant to mention that I did not check for trades. Also I finally got it through my head that Enslaves do not see other hidden units, so no point to put them on picket duty.

 

[vmxa]

I thought I read no pop los for Monarchy?? I tried to get peace from Spain to see what they would offer, but they would not give up any towns. I would have abandoned them, if they did as they are too far from us and we did not have units to put in them right then. Not to mention they could not get there quick enough. Prophets are more dangerous with the 3 attack.

Invasions will be a real bugger on DG with no armies. I can live without the attack help, but the covering stacks was very important. We need to try to not have more than one foe at landing time.

 

[Greebley]

Isn't the Great Pagoda the entry that requires a govt type that we are not? I thought I looked at it and it is useless in Monarchy. Am I thinking of a different wonder?

Sounds like some good progress.

 

[vmxa]

Not sure, I think it is only for Budda, which we are.

 

[Northern Pike]

Isn't the Great Pagoda the entry that requires a govt type that we are not? I thought I looked at it and it is useless in Monarchy. Am I thinking of a different wonder?

@Civinator: The Civilopedia says exactly that--"Can only be used with Theocracy government"--and the Civilopedia is wrong. The GP can be built in monarchy and produces yogis in monarchy.

 

[vmxa]

There are so many facets to this mod, it will be a long time to correct all the pieces. Mostly just minor things, but when you have so many new functions and aspects they are important to new players.

For now everyone is pretty much a new player.

 

[ThERat]

You got to give it to the designers of the mod for chaging so many pedia entries. There are bound to be smaller errors as things got changed etc.

Once we discover some glaring issues, we can post it in the mod thread. The Great Pagoda should still be available under monarchy as well. Plus, I am beginning to wonder whether we should hand build it as we seem to not get any MGL.

 

[vmxa]

Sure looks like we will have to do it by hand. As soon as the player feels they can afford to give up the troops. Not sure what the other towns can do, maybe one can do it in 20 and leave Angkor cranking. I would suspect that cracking a couple of Korean cities, would allow Angkor to go for it though. We must be about due for a leader.

Civinator is monitoring the game as well.

 

[Northern Pike]

View attachment 252884, end of turn

 

[Northern Pike]

1 (0): Since we no longer have a serious war going to bring us a Leader, the question of hand-building the Great Pagoda in Angkor obviously arises; but after some thought I decide against it. There's no way one yogi can help us more when we return to war than seven WE or a quick Royal Garrison build, and my point about the wastefulness of hand-building the only expensive item we can rush still holds.

We send elephants to Carthage for 14 gpt and 70 gold.

A Korean invisible attacker detusks one of our war elephants left out in the desert (0-1).

Tokyo Buddhist Community --> slavery, Rangoon merchant ship --> merchant ship, Hyangsan National Symbol (rushed) --> BC.


25 (1): Research down to 50%, Feudalism still due immediately.

This time one of our war elephants repels a Korean invisible attacker (1-1).

Feudalism --> Religion (no choice).

Angkor granary --> Royal Garrison, Kyoto merchant ship --> slavery, Hanoi granary --> WE, Edo NS --> BC, Satsuma NS (rushed) --> BC. As I've said, I believe in granary builds in CCM.


50 (2): Our exploring merchant ship is still in that safe patch of sea, but it hasn't led to any land yet.

An important note: merchant ships appear to pay one MP for sea tiles while castle ships and transport ships pay two, so the former are far superior for exploration and suicide runs.

Apparently Religion is a prodigiously expensive tech in this mod. Although three AI civs have it, silks, 140 gpt, and 500 gold won't buy it. So we'll have to research it ourselves, taking 14 turns. We might get a break if the Carths discover it before they have Feudalism.

Osaka granary --> BC, Rangoon merchant ship --> merchant ship, Hyangsan BC (rushed) --> harbour.

Angkor --> slaver, Hanoi --> apprentice (upgraded).


75 (3): We found Da Nang on Rat's "Nice Spot". This will be a good city eventually, but for the moment it's in the middle of a vast forest.

One of our slavers gets an attack against a Canadian warrior it's been stalking for a while, but redlines and retreats.

Hanoi WE --> WE, Osaka BC --> castle, Saigon granary --> WE.

Saigon --> catapult.


100 (4): The Carths have learned Feudalism before Religion, so there goes our last chance of saving time on Religion that way.

Rangoon merchant ship --> merchant ship, Da Nang NS (by chop) --> BC.

Angkor --> training chariot (upgraded).


125 (5): We give the Koreans a boot order, which I trust isn't against Rat's standards of honourable play, and they declare war.

Bangkok academy --> castle.


150 (6): We fight a complicated and interesting battle around Wonsan, which is only possible because the fast workers in CCM can move to a tile and road it instantly. We storm the town, held by two spearmen, an archer, and a chariot, and gain the Great Leader Le Loi. Outside the town we smite two spearmen, a chariot, a swordsman, a catapult, and an archer (11-1). We capure three workers and a slave.

Angkor ROYAL GARRISON --> WE, Rangoon merchant ship --> merchant ship, Satsuma BC --> academy, Da Nang BC (by chop) --> supply centre (ivory), Hanoi WE --> Thai pike.

We have six units in Wonsan for the safe interturn, to deal with four resisters, and they don't suppress any of them. Has anyone else noticed that it seems to be abnormally hard to get rid of resistance in CCM?


175 (7): We strike down three Korean swordsmen and two spearmen around Wonsan (16-1).

We send a suicide merchant ship into the western ocean--our other explorations have been in the eastern ocean, and done safely--but it sinks on its first IT at risk.

Osaka castle --> Great Pagoda, Saigon WE --> WE.

We reduce no resistance in Wonsan.


200 (8): Le Loi rushes the Great Pagoda in Osaka.

There are still too many Korean units around Wonsan for us to push on to Seoul. We rupture two spearmen and a slaver, but a couple of redline-and-retreats stall our operations (19-1).

A forest chop outside Da Nang doesn't give the town any shields.

We defeat an invisible attacker, probably Spanish, at Bangkok (20-1).

We have to allow some attacks at Wonsan. We lose an elephant but refute a yogi's theology (21-2). Hinayana my butt.

Angkor WE --> WE, Hanoi Thai pike --> Thai pike, Osaka GREAT PAGODA --> Thai pike, Edo BC --> slavery, Rangoon merchant ship --> merchant ship.

With eleven units in Wonsan we still don't reduce any resistance.


225 (9): We discover an entirely different sea lane in the eastern ocean, well to the north, but once again it's not clear whether it leads to any land.

We slay another six Korean units around Wonsan, finally clearing the area (27-2).

Kyoto slavery --> castle.

Two of Wonsan's stiff-necked citizens finally come out of resistance.


250 (10): We could move on Seoul now, but a healing turn makes more sense.

Our war with the Portuguese has remained completely symbolic, except for their laughable naval bombardments.

Two slaver victories this round generated one slave.

Eight elite victories this round produced one Great Leader.

 

[Northern Pike]

The Koreans seem gassed now, with only their city garrisons and a dribble of new production. Just our capturing Seoul should cripple them, given the feebleness of their other cities, and the next player should be able to take that town and a couple of others easily enough. We have three native workers in Wonsan to provide instant roading.

The main danger we face is a flip in Wonsan. I've been applying the traditional rules of thumb, according to which we should be safe (given the present two resisters) with thirteen units in the city, but it would be much better to know the facts from a utility. We don't want to make the classic of error of having enough units in the town that a flip would really hurt us, but not enough to prevent one.

Our explorations in the eastern ocean have been frustrating. We've found a lot of sea we can safely navigate, but none of it has led to land yet. In the north (of the eastern ocean) one of our ships is still exploring a zone of sea tiles, pushing northeast. In the centre, where we've exhausted the safe options, one of our ships has just ended its turn in the ocean. If it survives, it'll reach new sea tiles. We have other ships approaching the same area. Rangoon is producing nothing but merchant ships for exploration.

I've consolidated our workers and slaves into fewer stacks. When we have to cover them against invisible enemies, this is essential.

Having done most of the work of researching Religion, we could buy it now, but I doubt it's worth the still-considerable cost just to save four turns.

 

[Northern Pike]

Closing in:

So that the lurkers can appreciate the graphics in this mod:

 

[Northern Pike]

@Civinator: I think there's a real problem with the castle ships and other early bombardment vessels in CCM, although it's hardly your fault. We all know that putting a lot of resources into useless naval bombardment is one of the worst things the AI does--and now every civ can do it without waiting for frigates. Basically, the castle ships make every opponent as stupid as the Byzantines. So for that reason, perhaps they should be excluded from CCM even though the player would lose an option.

 

[vmxa]

"Angkor granary --> Royal Garrison, Kyoto merchant ship --> slavery, Hanoi granary --> WE, Edo NS --> BC, Satsuma NS (rushed) --> BC. As I've said, I believe in granary builds in CCM."

Ok, but can you explain to me why you believe in them? I do not recall anything they do special, just the faster growth. Is it just because we pay no maint? Mind you I have no case to make against them, just want to learn why I should like them.

I am a fan of faster growth in a few core cities, but not concerned about the rest. At least not as long as I have few few luxs and cannot pop out workers or settlers.

 

[vmxa]

We have 7 merchants now and are making more. What are they for, exploring or are we building up for an invasion? I guess I am just not a fan of boats and paying maint on them. 4 or 5 for exploring I can see, more I am not so sure.

We will be busy with this continent for a long time, so no real rush to find the restof the world. Well I guess it is good to gain contacts, but more boats is not likely to speed that up much.

I bring it up to know, if I should keep making them on my turn. Because without a request I won't make them till an invasion is in the offing. I don't want to drop the ball for the team, so let me know, if you want more at that point.

I do not even like to make castleships as DG or better and 31 civs, they bleed us trying to fight boats with boats.

 

[Northern Pike]

I have two basic things in mind:

1. The argument against too many granary builds in straight Civ is that they just bring a city more quickly to a size where it's going to be stuck anyway--six or twelve according to circumstances, and there's no way to get beyond twelve until any normal game has long since been decided. In CCM these limits are much looser; the first is ten, which hardly matters because an aqueduct is a fairly quick build in a city that size with CCM's low corruption, and the second we haven't even established, AFAIK. Granaries are much more valuable when the population ceiling to which they can raise a city is so much higher.

2. In straight Civ, developing existing cities and encouraging their growth is less important than just cranking out more cities, at least in the decisive early stage. CCM's limits on settlers make population growth in established towns more important, and that's another argument for granaries.