Rate the Beliefs - the results

[black213]

Why did Divine Inspiration get such a low score? It's an awesome belief when playing culturally, as tall empires don't generate as much faith as wide empires do. The belief lets tall empires buy more Great Artists later in the game

 

[legaceez]

That pretty much hits the head on the nail. Bascially, every belief needs to be useful sometimes and no belief should be the best everytime.

I'm not sure Fertility Rites is actually the best everytime, so I don't think it's too bad as it is, but then again, I scored FR lower than average, so maybe I just haven't realized how good it is.

I actually think there should be one or two beliefs per category that are universally good so the first ones to get religions have that advantage.

So it's basically a race to get the universally best beliefs, middle tier beliefs, or if you want go for a situational belief as it benefits you. If you're late to the game you should get sub par beliefs I think. Else there's really no difference between being the third person to pop a religion and the last person. You can just take your time. It really only benefits those that lazily attend to their faith.

 

[Udey1]

Nothing I despise more than opening a post and seeing the word "nerf" over and over.

 

[Tachii]

Why did Divine Inspiration get such a low score? It's an awesome belief when playing culturally, as tall empires don't generate as much faith as wide empires do. The belief lets tall empires buy more Great Artists later in the game

I prefer the 15% production better though. Can help save a turn off Utopia project and other Wonders (Cristo, Sistine, Louvre, Pisa), whereas divine inspiration may help you get the 4000 faith GA, but if you've got CI and/or Persia the GA is more than overkill for culture vic.

 

[kaspergm]

I actually think there should be one or two beliefs per category that are universally good so the first ones to get religions have that advantage.

So it's basically a race to get the universally best beliefs, middle tier beliefs, or if you want go for a situational belief as it benefits you. If you're late to the game you should get sub par beliefs I think. Else there's really no difference between being the third person to pop a religion and the last person.

I didn't say there couldn't be beliefs that are universally good, I said there can't be beliefs that are universally the best.

The difference is subtle, but the point is that a belief like Fertility Rites will always be good, because more food is always useful (for pretty obvious reasons). However, Fertility Rites should not be better than the situational ones even if you start in a position that favours those - for instance, if I get a start with lots of Gold or Silver (optimal for Religious Idols) and Fertility Rites is still better*, then something is wrong with balance. The concern here can both be a balance one (the one that gets Fertility Rites always wins the game*), but my own biggest concern is that it kills the fun for the game because you will then by default always pick Fertility Rites given the chance*, which kills the variation and fun in the game.


* Please note that Fertility Rites is just used as an example here. I don't actually think Fertility Rites is that badly balanced.

 

[Rooftrellen]

Why did Divine Inspiration get such a low score? It's an awesome belief when playing culturally, as tall empires don't generate as much faith as wide empires do. The belief lets tall empires buy more Great Artists later in the game

The problem is that then you're trading out one or MAYBE two late GA's in exchange for cathedrals, choral music, or religious art.

It also comes, at earliest, when you have founded a religion, securing a future enhancement anyway. Once a religion is founded, faith beliefs lose some of their value, needing to generate much more than pantheon, due to the fact inquisitors, missionaries, and GP end up costing lots of faith, and, while it's still a race, it's not as vital to enhance quickly, since the option won't go away.

What's more it's hard to get many wonders in a game. Even in a cultural game, you're going to key in on just a few culture generating wonders...and due to not having a wide empire for faith generation, you'll probably not try to expand your religion far and wide, even with a bit of a faith boost.

It's not way out of line, but wide empires can generate faith well enough anyway and tell empires can almost always use the culture, production, or food more than some extra faith.

 

[legaceez]

I didn't say there couldn't be beliefs that are universally good, I said there can't be beliefs that are universally the best.

The difference is subtle, but the point is that a belief like Fertility Rites will always be good, because more food is always useful (for pretty obvious reasons). However, Fertility Rites should not be better than the situational ones even if you start in a position that favours those - for instance, if I get a start with lots of Gold or Silver (optimal for Religious Idols) and Fertility Rites is still better*, then something is wrong with balance. The concern here can both be a balance one (the one that gets Fertility Rites always wins the game*), but my own biggest concern is that it kills the fun for the game because you will then by default always pick Fertility Rites given the chance*, which kills the variation and fun in the game.


* Please note that Fertility Rites is just used as an example here. I don't actually think Fertility Rites is that badly balanced.

I understand your reasoning but I sill think there should be that one or two that is UNIVERSALLY best. It gives you a reason to race to be the first to found a religion and enhance it. Keep in mind a big advantage is also denying the belief to the other civs.

The situational ones should be just that, situational. They shouldn't be autopicks if you start of a certain way. They shouldn't be automatically better than every other belief in your case if you have the perfect start. You should still have to make a hard choice of the universally best one or the situationally best one. It should be like okay I didn't get the universally best beliefs so lets fall back to one that best fits my current game scenario. I might be sub par overall but hey that's my fault for being late to the religion game.

On a side note balancing things will actually make the situaltional ones overpowered because you know that no one else would probably pick it (or rarely fullful the beneficial conditions) so you could take your time getting the necessary faith points. You are once again taking out the whole race aspect of it. They should give you a slight advantage but shouldn't be 100% better than the cream of the crop beliefs if you fit the situation.

You are in fact indirectly nerfing faith based civs and buildings/wonders by trying to make all the beliefs balanced like you are.

 

[kaspergm]

I will at least partially concede to the points you raise here. I do agree that the situational ones should not be better when you meet those conditions, they should just be as good as the universal ones - then you have a real choice. If the situational one (whatever fits you) is better than the universal one that leaves you exactly as little choise as if the universal one is better, so we should strive for even.

But all that being said, I don't even think there's too much point in stressing this debate here - the situational beliefs are mostly the Pantheon beliefs, and I actually think those are pretty balanced as is, at least in the strong end - my problem there are with those few ones that are just blatantly underpowered.

When it comes to founder/follower/enhancer beliefs on the other hand, there are not really a lot of situational ones - in fact, I'd go as far as saying that the only really situational non-pantheon belief is Monasteries, and as it happens, I play with a mod that changes this belief, so that's not even that relevant in my personal situation.

I still retain my point that is is a problem that some of the non-pantheon beliefs are as strong as it is - in 9/10 of my games I end up picking Tithe, Pagodas and Religious Texts, and while that's obviously a great combination, it does sort of kill the fun of customizing religion. Sure, I can pick sub-optimal choices for the sake of variation, but if a strategy game forces you to do that, there is some bad game-design going on.

 

[legaceez]

i agree there is definitely some balancing that needs to be done. i would probably lean more towards adding more options rather than trying to make them more evenly balanced though by nerfs or buffs.

as it is if you are the first one to pop a pantheon and religion fertility rites/tithe/pagodas is probably what you will get 90% of the time as it's just the best combination right now. and i'm actually okay with that. i'm not usually the first to pop a pantheon or religion though unless i get lucky with ancient ruins. so i actually do not end up with that combination most of the time and have to pick a more situational combo. and i'm okay with that too. sometimes i am first and pick something else anyways depending on my civ. so there are other options if you're willing to be creative.

i'm even okay with being the last to get a pantheon and having to pick something that doesn't even benefit me much if at all. it's my fault for taking so long. so yes if we're talking more about the bottom tier situational ones that outright suck, it's well hey it's still a small bonus and hey it's better than nothing. keep in mind some players won't even get to pick a belief.

i guess in conclusion i agree the current system isn't perfect but it'd be less so if things are normalized.

 

[kaspergm]

as it is if you are the first one to pop a pantheon and religion fertility rites/tithe/pagodas is probably what you will get 90% of the time as it's just the best combination right now. and i'm actually okay with that. i'm not usually the first to pop a pantheon or religion though unless i get lucky with ancient ruins. so i actually do not end up with that combination most of the time and have to pick a more situational combo.

Well problem is I usually am the first one to found, or at least second, and first to enhance, which does give me pretty free pick.

And I still don't really see anything going against bringing these beliefs a bit more on level with the others. If you are not the first to found, it won't make much of a difference, but if you are the first to found, it would at least ensure a bit more variation.

 

[legaceez]

I guess that would be boring. Just out of curiosity what difficulty and civ do you usually play? I usually play on Emperor with Spain, Aztecs, China, Egypt, or Mongols. I'm usually pretty excited to get fertility rites and tithe. I'm not good enough to try Diety yet.

I'm more domination orientated so I don't usually get faith that quickly unless I'm lucky. I can definitely see your point if you're always the first one to get a religion. I do find it fair though because I think I should be stuck with the bottom of the barrel in most cases.

 

[Buccaneer]

I fully believe there should be more consequences of choice regarding beliefs. In other words, if you choose to priority early faith, you should get the better beliefs than one who does not prioritize faith. I love that there are only 5 religions in a standard game but that's still too high. But I do like the terrain variety of the Pantheons, but it's the follower beliefs that should be more unbalanced.

 

[kaspergm]

I guess that would be boring. Just out of curiosity what difficulty and civ do you usually play? I usually play on Emperor with Spain, Aztecs, China, Egypt, or Mongols. I'm usually pretty excited to get fertility rites and tithe. I'm not good enough to try Diety yet.

I'm more domination orientated so I don't usually get faith that quickly unless I'm lucky. I can definitely see your point if you're always the first one to get a religion. I do find it fair though because I think I should be stuck with the bottom of the barrel in most cases.

I play Emperor. I usually build Stonehenge for the faith (and GE point) which helps me found early (unless someone starts beside a faith NW). I also have a mod which opens Piety from ancient era and makes some changes to a couple of the pols (opener provides extra faith from Shrines and Temples, Oranized Religion adds happiness from Shrines and Temples) but these changes apply to AI also, so they could go straight into Piety also.

 

[legaceez]

Okay I see. So you actually have some mods that increase overall faith production. Something to keep in mind with that though is even though the AI has access to the same benefits they might not be coded in a way to take advantage of the new changes. Unless the mod creator also updated the AI's strategy code, which a lot of times is false.

In the end mods almost always give the human player the greater advantage because you can more readily adapt your strategy. I'm not saying that's a bad thing though play however you want. I actually modded in some wonders myself that the AI seems to never go for lol

I can also argue though that balancing the unmodded game based on mods you have running is definitely a bad idea. Definitely feel free to mod/balance your own game as you see fit though. Maybe even release it and I will check it out.

 

[TM Moot]

2.9 - Monasteries: Use Faith to purchase Monasteries (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, more with Wine or Incense)

Quick question, does anyone know what bonus "more with wine and incense" actually gives?!?

 

[manu-fan]

2.9 - Monasteries: Use Faith to purchase Monasteries (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, more with Wine or Incense)

Quick question, does anyone know what bonus "more with wine and incense" actually gives?!?

IIRC I think it was 2 faith on each Wine and Incense.

Cheers.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Only starting out with this game, I did not consider fertility rites or messenger to be good picks since they don't seem to help my early game as much but I am starting to see where the food and science can be so powerful.

(I'm slow to get trade routes connected and I keep hitting a happiness cap that I can never seem to overcome so these two choices haven't looked too helpful on the surface... however I'll trust the more experienced players that these choices are boffo.)

edit - It is only Part I that threw me (probably since the benefits seem so minor in the early game). Part II, III, and IV I agree totally with the consensus on which beliefs are best.

 

[kaspergm]

Okay I see. So you actually have some mods that increase overall faith production. Something to keep in mind with that though is even though the AI has access to the same benefits they might not be coded in a way to take advantage of the new changes. Unless the mod creator also updated the AI's strategy code, which a lot of times is false.

That is true, and the AI behaviour was not changed, because I did the changed about those policies myself. That being said, I did those mods recently, and I was pretty much the same before that, building Stonehenge will secure you first or second founding almost certainly.

I can also argue though that balancing the unmodded game based on mods you have running is definitely a bad idea. Definitely feel free to mod/balance your own game as you see fit though. Maybe even release it and I will check it out.

My vote only counts for one here, though, and the votes for Pagodas, Tithe and Religious Texts were pretty much unanimous is it was.

 

[Tachii]

IIRC I think it was 2 faith on each Wine and Incense.

Cheers.

No. It's +1 culture and +1 faith for each Wine/Incense.

 

[Halcyan2]

The problem is that then you're trading out one or MAYBE two late GA's in exchange for cathedrals, choral music, or religious art.

It also comes, at earliest, when you have founded a religion, securing a future enhancement anyway. Once a religion is founded, faith beliefs lose some of their value, needing to generate much more than pantheon, due to the fact inquisitors, missionaries, and GP end up costing lots of faith, and, while it's still a race, it's not as vital to enhance quickly, since the option won't go away.

What's more it's hard to get many wonders in a game. Even in a cultural game, you're going to key in on just a few culture generating wonders...and due to not having a wide empire for faith generation, you'll probably not try to expand your religion far and wide, even with a bit of a faith boost.

It's not way out of line, but wide empires can generate faith well enough anyway and tell empires can almost always use the culture, production, or food more than some extra faith.

Religious buildings are good, but getting two religious building beliefs isn't necessary that helpful. Getting enough faith to buy all the religious buildings in your cities can take awhile. Though Cathedrals/Pagodas/Mosques do generate Faith, it will take at least 200/100/67 turns for the building to pay for itself. That is time and faith that could be used on missionaries to spread your faith instead. Even with tall empires, if you spread your religion early you can make sure the other religions don't have the chance to take root.

Faith beliefs like Divine Inspiration can help you Enhance your religion faster. And it works well when combined with a Religious Building belief since it lets you get those Cathedrals/Pagodas much quicker.

Religious Art can be good, especially in a Cultural Game. However, you won't be able to actually benefit it until late Renaissance / early Industrial, which is a long time for it to finally bear fruit.