Rate the Beliefs - the results

[Koiranputki]

It's probably because you've founded a religion before you settled that city. If so, pantheons does not automatically work on these cities - you need to spread your religion there for the pantheon to have an effect.

Yes, of course...thanks, that has to be it.

The Great Barrier Reef city was founded after my religion, but my second city with the religious mountain was founded before I had a religion. Gosh, another little "gotcha" to watch out for....

In a similar vein I'm not so quick to chase away other religions' prophets now..... Sometimes a short-run change can be beneficial to your civ....you may be able to build things with faith that your religion can't.... But it's all situational...

 

[TyBoy]

That's one of the huge advantages of the interfaith dialogue and cheap missionaries setup. You've made no investment in spreading your own religion to cities so you can use whichever has the best follower and pantheon beliefs for your city.

As far as founding cities I find that it's worthwhile to freeze new cities at 1 pop until your religion has spread to them. If a city grows fast it can go a long time before it builds up enough followers to convert but a size one city only needs 1 follower to convert and from then on out the city will always be at or near 100% followers instead of barely 50%. If there's a good 0 or 1 food tile near the city the long term cost to the city can be very small.

 

[kaspergm]

I've been testing a few of the different beliefs. One that can be quite interesting in the right circumstances is the +4 Faith from natural wonders pantheon. Playing as Spain it gives you a dramatic boost.

On a saved map...knowing where things would be... I started out quite often right next to Uluru.... from turn three that was +20 Faith per turn.... two turns at +12 Faith, then 4 more when I selected the natural wonders pantheon. Kind of crazy...but it was a test.

In a proper game, still playing as Spain, I founded my second city next to one of the religious mountains...I forget at the moment which one...it was a few turns before the city had enough food to be able to use the mountain, but once it kicked in it was quite powerful.... Without anything else but the mountain and the pantheon, the faith yield was around 14.

In the same game a bit later I found...not the first to find it though.... the Great Barrier Reef.... and after a bit of a struggle I did get a city there which could take in both parts.

However with this city, the +16 Faith (8 per part...playing as Spain) didn't kick in right away even though the city used them from the start ... because of the +4 Food each ( actually one of them was +5 Food...there were some fish mixed in with the reef).

There must be some kind of pre-condition before the extra faith from the pantheon kicks in but I haven't figured it out yet. And whatever the pre-condition is, it doesn't seem to apply if the natural wonder already carries some faith with it...like Uluru and the other "faith" mountains.....

Has anyone figured this out yet?

One with nature obviously is an interesting fit with Spain, but under normal circumstances, you'll only have access to one, or at the very best two, natural wonders in early game where the extra faith matters, which will result in something like 2 to 4 or at best 6 extra faith, which is simply not that great.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

An update regarding my issue with fertility rites:

It seems to be giving me .2 or .3 extra food per turn tops. Is that really accelerating pop growth by a significant number of turns. Is this really that great? Is there something I am missing?

OK, I finally played way past fertilizer tech and now it's competing with the other food-based pantheons. I can see it shave a turn or two off quite a few city expansions now. I had run into happiness problems and once I figured out how to get past them, fertility rites is having an effect.

Analyzing the issue, there is a point in my games where happiness limits growth more than food production, specifically before the happiness buildings like theater are spread around. Fertility rites doesn't help in this phase of the game.

As mid-game happiness comes online at the same time as the food boost of fertilizer, Fertility Rites can globally shave turns off your mid-game population expansion, speeding up the point where your city is well developed enough to compete, adding dozens of turns of pop production to the mid-game. I am more of a fan now.

In summary, considering all my posts in this thread, I believe I can see why the top picks are the top picks, keeping in mind that just trying to take the top picks across the board without considering synergies is not so ideal.

For example, I won't try to just take pagodas and cathedral just because they are the two highest rated follower beliefs. I have to have the faith production to be able to benefit from both buildings in a reasonable time frame, plus maybe limited religious competition in my part of the world so I don't have to burn faith on inquisitors and missionaries just to keep my cities faithful, for example.

 

[Halcyan2]

An update regarding my issue with fertility rites:

OK, I finally played way past fertilizer tech and now it's competing with the other food-based pantheons. I can see it shave a turn or two off quite a few city expansions now. I had run into happiness problems and once I figured out how to get past them, fertility rites is having an effect.

Analyzing the issue, there is a point in my games where happiness limits growth more than food production, specifically before the happiness buildings like theater are spread around. Fertility rites doesn't help in this phase of the game.

As mid-game happiness comes online at the same time as the food boost of fertilizer, Fertility Rites can globally shave turns off your mid-game population expansion, speeding up the point where your city is well developed enough to compete, adding dozens of turns of pop production to the mid-game. I am more of a fan now.

In summary, considering all my posts in this thread, I believe I can see why the top picks are the top picks, keeping in mind that just trying to take the top picks across the board without considering synergies is not so ideal.

For example, I won't try to just take pagodas and cathedral just because they are the two highest rated follower beliefs. I have to have the faith production to be able to benefit from both buildings in a reasonable time frame, plus maybe limited religious competition in my part of the world so I don't have to burn faith on inquisitors and missionaries just to keep my cities faithful, for example.

Fertility Rites is also useful becomes it comes into play immediately, before you have the tech/improvements ready. It also helps boost newly founded cities immediately. The same is true for Religious Idols and Goddess of Festivals.

In contrast, Goddess of the Hunt, God of the Open Sky, God of the Sea, Oral Tradition, and Stone Circles all require you to research the necessary tech *and* have your Worker/Boat improve the resource before you can benefit.

If you get an early pantheon, it can be a long time before you set up camps to benefit from Goddess of the Hunt (I tend to delay Trapping for awhile as well). But Fertility Rites kicks in as soon as you get it (assuming you have surplus food).

In addition, Fertility Rites will help all of your cities while Goddess of the Hunt only helps specific cities with the right resources.

So they are each good for different purposes.

 

[Matthew.]

I often ignore fertility rate now. I'd rather get any faith pantheon if possible

I'm beginning to lean that way as well. Getting an early lead on faith more or less guarantees a strong presence of your religion across the map. Combined with Tithe =

Still, I suspect Fertility Rites is rated so high simply because it is always beneficial and not dependent on map creation. It is difficult to rate the others highly when they are completely useless on half your maps.

 

[Matthew.]

which will result in something like 2 to 4 or at best 6 extra faith, which is simply not that great.

Early in the game, it actually does make a big difference. The way religion works, the earlier you form it and get it spread across the map, the more difficult it is to remove it.

 

[Koiranputki]

Early in the game, it actually does make a big difference. The way religion works, the earlier you form it and get it spread across the map, the more difficult it is to remove it.

Yes....getting your religion off to an early start is a great idea....I started another game last night...again as Spain...this time Mt. Kailash was in a good spot for my second city....but food was the first problem...[though it has three wine hexes within easy reach].

Once I got to 3-pop, I turned on the faith from the mountain until I could get my pantheon....then turned it off for awhile until I could get some food in there. [Oh yes...I was first to find...quite early in the game ...a religious CS....8-Faith for that...in the early game all these little "scraps" are important...] I was the first pantheon so I got my pick of things...and later I think I was the first religion.

Of course Spain is a special case...I got my second city out very fast...[500g for being the first to find Mt. Kailash]. I didn't pick the 4-Faith from wonders pantheon though. I spawned in an area with lots of gold so I picked that one....I also set up my first city on a gold mountain and my first tech was mining. So I set myself up for early happiness before I actually found the faith mountain.

I also managed to kill off a few barbarians camps and returned a few workers to CS's ...so lots of early happiness....

Yes...getting off to a good start is critical....and it's all situational.... Unfortunately I didn't spawn in an area with rivers so I had to focus on getting my gold flow going... and I also went for some of the food wonders...Artemis and HG...which I got...and also surprisingly since I had the faith mountain, the algorithm of the game also let me get Stonehenge.... an engineer let me "rush- build" Chichen Itza....and that's when I stopped to go to bed....

It looks like it will be a fun game for a while...until the late game tedium sets in, of course....

 

[kaspergm]

Early in the game, it actually does make a big difference. The way religion works, the earlier you form it and get it spread across the map, the more difficult it is to remove it.

I still believe that most of the other faith-generating beliefs will outshine it under average circumstances. For instance, Stone Circles generates the same amount of faith from Stone, and Stone is generally much more abundant than Natural Wonders.

 

[Tachii]

I still believe that most of the other faith-generating beliefs will outshine it under average circumstances. For instance, Stone Circles generates the same amount of faith from Stone, and Stone is generally much more abundant than Natural Wonders.

Debatable, since the wine/gold/incense/silver pantheon is pretty small in term of faith boost. And the culture boost is pretty much negligible for culture or non-culture games alike (in early games these tiles tend to also be food lacking, which is not nearly as good as stone circles/desert folklore). Whereas +4 faith is just one time and give more reason for the city to use the wonder. Pretty much every natural wonder is somewhat beneficial to be used - and this creates an excellent incentive to use it more.


On a different note, I just realized God of War isn't as bad as I thought it was. If your neighbour is Attila, for instance or any other warmonger civ, you might as well get this since he will send waves after waves of units for you to destroy close to your borders. And since battering ram is pretty strong and can't attack units, God of War suddenly can become very effective. Even better is that your starting position is already close to another civ (I've seen it happen a bit too common these days on Immortal).

 

[gozpel]

I see that some pantheons and believes are stronger than others, so let's nerf/boost them.

Why not make them all totally equal, then we have nothing work for?

Of course a couple should be more powerful than the others, why else would you even worry about it? If you chase a religion, you want the best out of it, if they're all the same, why even bother?

On higher levels, you're not sure you can get the better goodies as it is now, you might be the last one picking a religion and get to chose crappy stuff.

Pagodas and Tithe are the best and maybe the AI should target them more than 30% bonus for town-defense or quarries.

Don't nerf that stuff, up the AI to take the better ones instead.

 

[kaspergm]

I must admit I'm a bit puzzled by the almost religeous zeal with which some people fight the idea of balancing the game.

I guess it's futile for me to repeat, again, that my intend is not to make all the beliefs exactly even. I don't believe that's even possible, and even if it was, I wouldn't want it, because it would kill the point of getting religion first. But I do think it kills some of the fun of a customizable religion when some choices are so blatantly out of scale with the others that you choose these every time, given the opportunity. Sure, we can code AI to always pick these choices, but I just don't see why that's a better option than to bringing those outrunners a bit more in line with the rest of the field. But peace be with if we disagree on the latter, but please don't claim that my intentions are something they are not.

 

[Wargizmo]

I disagree that some beliefs should be super powered and the game should be a race to get those beliefs. IMO you want to make it so all the picks are useful in some cases given the right mix of desired victory condition, preferred strategy and terrain; this makes for more engaging game play because of increased player choice and variety. At the moment I think the pantheon ones are extremely well balanced, with a good mix of terrain specific boosts and overall general benefits. I think I've taken them all at one point or another. The founder beliefs on the other hand are quite poorly balanced since tithe and ceremonial burial are so ridiculously good that you automatically just take one of those no matter what. This takes a lot of strategy away from the player as well as variety from game play. Ideally you don't want to make any choice redundant, church property is pretty close to being redundant at the moment since you can just pick ceremonial burial and sell luxury for the same gold per turn but you also have the option to keep the happiness if needed. Tithe gives more money in most cases anyway if you really just want the cash and nothing else.

 

[BSPollux]

"Reliquary: Gain 50 Faith each time a Great Person is expended"
add:
+50 Faith when pillaging holy sites
or
+5 Faith to great temple

Its called 'Reliquary', it should have some connection to either gathering of or praying at holy objects. First choice has some crusader-like touch, second is fors tallies

 

[tommynt]

what a pointless vote, pantheon choise is 100% dependent on your land - so there is clearly no "best" which have to be nerfed or buffed.

The only 1 which might be OP might be desert folklore with right land but again - land dependent ...

 

[joncnunn]

My own thought is that the built in AI is currently not good enough of picking the best X for them for the balance to be how much effort you put into faith.
Remember that the AI has picked Patronage in games were there were no city states at all.

I do suspect though that the GEM mod under development will address this.

 

[Rooftrellen]

I disagree that some beliefs should be super powered and the game should be a race to get those beliefs. IMO you want to make it so all the picks are useful in some cases given the right mix of desired victory condition, preferred strategy and terrain; this makes for more engaging game play because of increased player choice and variety. At the moment I think the pantheon ones are extremely well balanced, with a good mix of terrain specific boosts and overall general benefits. I think I've taken them all at one point or another. The founder beliefs on the other hand are quite poorly balanced since tithe and ceremonial burial are so ridiculously good that you automatically just take one of those no matter what. This takes a lot of strategy away from the player as well as variety from game play. Ideally you don't want to make any choice redundant, church property is pretty close to being redundant at the moment since you can just pick ceremonial burial and sell luxury for the same gold per turn but you also have the option to keep the happiness if needed. Tithe gives more money in most cases anyway if you really just want the cash and nothing else.

Exactly.

Religion shouldn't be a race to the best beliefs, but the best beliefs for you.

Though the founder beliefs are somewhat unbalanced, they offer a good example. Tithe is nice for a peaceful game in which you'll want more gold but won't want to tick off neighbors by forcing your religion down their throat. The player can convert a small number of followers in many cities in order to get the gold without making anyone mad.

A warmonger with late game UU's in the same situation may well get more from Church Property, so they can set up more lower pop cities to pump out units and get the advantage without needing to worry about pop numbers, just majority.

Going for a quick domination win lends itself more to initiation rites, in order to get that gold in the front, rather than though time.

The problem, of course, is actually properly balancing all three, but all three could be fun choices in the right context, but it shouldn't be a race to the best overall but rather a race to get the best for you this game.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

+1 food/camp will beat fertilty rate in most cases if there's 2 camp. Fertility rate would require 20+ surplus food to rival the base bonus of 2 additional food. And even though you're unlikely to get a camp in every city, fertility rate is nearly irrelevant if you have less than 10 surplus food anyways.

This, plus the fact that food is food, and growth just means reaching the next pop faster (unless you're pre-patch Floating Gardens). Hunt God will feed an additional pop/specialist, maybe more. Growth just means transforming your +2 surplus into a hill tile in fewer turns.

--
If simply the pantheon beliefs and the enhancer beliefs had (1 or 2) "strictly best" members, but follower beliefs and founder beliefs were on a scale, and follower beliefs were situational, would that not still reward the player who generates a pantheon and a religion and its second great prophet the fastest?
In a way you are rewarded in religion with the ability to crush other religions and pantheons, so there is always that factor to present as the bonus to you for your Shrines and faith wonder settlement. In turn, as pantheon beliefs become follower beliefs, there is that trait of sharing its benefit if you do spread it outwardly, which should satisfy the players wanting situationalism there. The first choice and first enhancement give you the follower belief with most strength and what you want, and your founder belief (i.e. Tithe ) is a prize for getting there first, but the follower beliefs would interact with the players' situations.

So Pagodas being "OP" is against this model, but tithe being "the best" is not. Neither are the passive spread traits to be reviled for being so obvious, maybe there aren't enhancer beliefs that are auto-good enough, since that Interfaith Dialogue Founder still makes you want quirky things to happen with religion. At the end of the day, a bonus on the table for playing the religion game is the ability to become the only player who gets to use religion. Just as unlocking one SP or one tech earliest does not mean this will keep up to the actual greatest benefit you could achieve with your resources (except for plastics ), cannot some players in a game be granted the truth that, for them, early is not the right time for religion?

 

[kirbdog]

(except for plastics )

It's nice, but if strategy mattered more (ie playing humans), biology and flight (if you strike oil) is better.

 

[kkapalk]

I can see Kaspergm's point. I would like a bit of variety in my choices, but when I have to decide I always choose Pagodas because they are so good. I don't really have an option of choice because the others seem to pale against this strong follower belief. Perhaps a little trim down of certain founder/follower beliefs?