Rate the new AI

[CaveToad]

I notice the AI does a few weird things. Here is a specific scenario:

late game, erebus map, all world has been settled.

* ( over use of certain units past their usefulness )

falamar has a huge roaming SOD of 400+ units, most are boarding parties and archebus units with a huge gob of assassins as well, but also includes something like 60 rangers? i am guessing these are left overs from the start of the game that were upgraded from scouts or hunters, but why would anyone need so many at this point, rangers are pretty much useless.

Maybe in future editions, an AI can make a determination that a unit is not as useful as its maintenance cost and would delete the unit, freeing up its cost and building a new unit in its place, such as a champion or whatever, or similar to how its easier to build a few workers when you need them and delete them when they are done, rather than paying their upkeep forever.

* ( the no boat building that others have noted )

lanun without boats severely weakens that civ's power base. and in general all AI civs on any map that uses water to divide the land masses

* ( AI doesnt make buildings as well )

again, very late game, pretty much peace the entire time ( i kept AC at zero as the elohim ) i would have thought that the other civs would have had nicely developed cities to support a stronger economy, but once i started a war, i noticed all cities i captured were basically empty.

 

[Tasunke]

rangers arent useless ... I think the bigger question is why are the AI building these gigantic stacks, but not knowing how to use them. In any event I should probably try the "AI fix".

 

[notque]

It will be interesting to see what AI changes are in the system, and what the code looks like at this point.

At one point, I had Naval AI working extremely well, but that was oh so long ago, and will certainly require a lot of work for me to understand what has changed since then.

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm playing a lot FfH those months and:
I've found the scenarios far more challenging in the early 2009 than after patch J.

Then i've seen some python file posted by Sephi, but i don't want to replay the scenarios again to test them.

In the normal games the AI was pitiful compared to plain BtS AI with the latest 040 patches and the improvements (if any) with 041j are not clear.

Sure, they use better magic, but i remember a game where i was arrassed by Lanun privateers. Now they hardly arrive to optics when i have Man'o'wars, even if they learnt to build their pirate coves.

To achieve any VC i play in relax after the first 50 turns. Those are the most challenging, 'cause i always use the "barbarian world" and i have lots of barbs to fight.
But also lots of cities to conquer with my high XP units, then i wipe my closest neighbour, then i fill the territory with settlers. Game over, basically. From then on, i just milk the game to have fun with units i never used before, since i've not played with all the possible civs.

The AIs build massive stacks, but it's completely incompetent to use them, mainly compared to plain BtS AI. On plain BtS monarch you have to play well to win, in FfH you can play sloppily. The only actual threat are barbs.

The AI tech rate is pitiful. And rarely i see some AI war. They also seem to have the habit to left a newly conquered city undefended when their units are healed.

I have fun with FfH 'cause i like the magic and the stories of this mod, but it's not a great challenge to win any VC. Usually i play Emperor/Immortal, or increasing difficulty starting at Noble if i plan a long game to finish at Deity.

 

[feydras]

IMO - the AI is more capable of winning but considerably less fun. I don't enjoy the massive stacks being thrown against my cities. Not because i don't like a challenge but because it railroads my playstyle into certain responses. I play FfH for the roleplaying aspects of the game as much as for the challenging gameplay. I find that the way my games go in the last couple patches is my chance of victory is nearly completely dependent on if i'm lucky enough to avoid an enemy AI attack aka massive stack attack for the first half of the game. Otherwise i loose. I also find myself consistently rushing for the CoE shrine so that my invisible mages can fend off stacks. I'm sure there are other good strategies for dealing with stacks. Playing a reasonable defensive strategy (ex.. 4-5 good defensive units with another 6-10 good support within reach) is no longer possible, at least for me.

I don't like the massive stacks. 60+ stacks with 15+ assassins doesn't increase my fun level it makes me annoyed as i as a player because i wouldn't be able to field that kind of army with a similar amount of cities and have any kind of economy. I assume the AI doesn't have to pay the same maintenance costs as Human players.

I've tried lowering my difficultly level and i just end up sweeping the game if i can survive the initial rushes. I like all the other AI changes so far but hate, hate, hate the massive stacks.

 

[Tasunke]

yea, I'd rather see the AI play more intelligently with mid-sized stacks rather than wielding massive stacks like over-sized clubs just waiting to get out-teched.

If the AI had a more tactical approach to casting spells AND worldspells, as well as looked at defending cities and taking cities from a more "global" objective view rather than an "individual" objective view, I think it would be a massive improvement. The main question, does this require a thinking AI? Probably not.

I can see why its hard to make a universal AI though ... I mean really each Civ should probably have their own AI just due to the way their civ plays.

Orcs: don't care about any units, attack in massive waves ... go for taking the enemys' key centers of production

Hippus: Massive Stacks, waste all low-level units, highly prize all high level units ... attack the weaklings first in order to get more experience (hippus are great at getting experience due to movement + withdrawal, aka experience is your friend, level UP!!!)

Vampires: start stacking moroi, use as fodder. Always stack some seige, use as fodder. When you can stack vampires, use all death II, save vampires and spam spectres. Start hoarding death mana at this point. Only Feast Cities with vampires over, say, level 3, and only focus on feasting your best 3 vampires till they are level 6 (or so) and then pick another 3. Keep your best vampire constantly feasting (he is above the 3) ... so that he is a Dracula waiting for the heroes to arrive.
(experience doesn't matter, feasting does. Oh, and don't use burning blood on a giant stack unless A) your odds of winning are less than 60%, or B) you have loyalty)

Khazad: production is your friend, so your soldiers lifespan can be short indeed. It matters not how many lives it takes to conquer the next hill.

Svartalfar: High levels is everything. Protect your units, use tact and strategy. Fireballs + Assassin, Nyxin + Assasins, Illusion + Assasins, AOE(if available) + assasins, use either rangers or champions as your meat, it matters not, but protect ur assasins!!! They can become deadly. Pick your fights, attack the enemy where they are weakest. This is similar to the hippus strategy, although hippus only care about high level units, Svarts care about all assasins and mages. Royal Guards are ur friend. Royal Guards are worth Aristocracy even if its not economically feasable. Rush Guilds and then Animal Mastery. Try to capture Acheron using a combination of illusions, Beastmasters, and the Black Mirror.

Illians: Rush the Priests of Winter, don't build ANY other rituals ... use Catapults, Assasins, and Champions to PROTECT your priests of winter. After Ironworking go for Theology ... PWN ur enemies with the Priests of Winter. If your Priests die then revert to non-crusade Bannor AI.

Elohim AI: bannor AI except for using Sancuary IF!!! your last city is about to be captured, half your population is about to be captured, half your culture is about to be captured, you are seriously outgunned (enemy soldiers IN YOUR TERRITORY outnumber you 4 to 1) ... or 2 of the four horsemen are in your territory.

Bannor AI: melee + Seige. some assasins.
//bannor only -> follow order, research fanatacism, build crusaders/priests and flagbearers to compliment your demagogue horde, then research ironworking to build demagogues directly and win by using numbers to your advantage. First the demagogues, then the seige, then the crusaders, and then anyone else with a 95% odds of winning or better. If your fodder has a 50% chance to take the city by themselves, then go for it. Then if your better units don't stand a chance in the aftermath, retreat and recover.

Amurites AI: Firebow stack -> cast worldspell once ur huge stack is ready to take on the top cheeze. Kill the top cheeze with Fiery death from your Fire bows during the Arcane Lacuna. Use this time to also get more diverse spells from your would be-adepts now turned mages. Such as .... Body2, Sun2, Shadow2. You don't need anything other than firebows. Anything else is low priority, u don't even need religion, although any AOE religion (AV, OO, Empy) would come complimentary.
do not let units die ... do not let firebows die. Live to sling a fireball another day.

Kuriotates AI: carefully select your 3 cities. Build up some warriors so they can initially survive. Then proceed to economically rape the early game. Build up a stack of Centaurs ... and raze every large enemy city. leave them the scraps, but continuously weaken the opponent so that they cannot get cities as nice as yours (difficult which makes Kurios by far my favorite AI to keep alive)

This is the AI by which they should treat enemies, at least. Oh, which reminds me.
During peace .... its OK!!!! to have the average size army or below. For all except for
1) the Lanun
2) the Kuriotates
simply due to their over-all lack to wage-war (of attrition) due to lack of hammers

So the net result? The AI should only keep building units if the upkeep costs don't cause them to go below the amount of science they were able to produce 5 (10/15/20) turns ago. If they start to lose gold, and have less than 50 gold per city, its a good idea to lower the science slider ... which should cause them to STOP!!! producing units since its breached the parameter. Of course there should be exceptions, but by no means should all civs be locked in an unstoppable arms war due to constantly knowing each other's power score. Only build an army within your own means, and be able to use it intelligently.

 

[Jarrema]

Tasunke, I think that Yours ideas are just awesome.
If only someone could implement them I would be really happy with AI

 

[BLubmuz]

To give you some points to discuss, i just post the chronicle of my just finished game with Hyborem.

I started as Os Gabella with Sheaim, Classical start, Pangea, Epic, barbarian world.
Difficulty Prince, since Infernal are so different i decided to play 2-3 levels below my usual ones.
Opponents (random): Rhoanna, Perpentach, Garrym Gyr, Decius (Malakim), Charadon and Dain (Amurites).

Cheats: I gave to Sheaim KotE and CoS, so on turn 4 or something Galveholm became the AV Holy city. Then i just moved some resources just outside the BFC in the BFC.

Luck: I popped a Thane of Killmorph, so i founded Runes without the tech, then an Ecclesiastic, which i kept in Capital, then a GS from the Pyre of the Seraphic (Academy) and a Savant, which i sent to Perpentach.

I researched BW and Infernal pact. No techs from huts, just some cash.

Then i choosed Hyborem when he entered the world.
I sent a Champion to scout the land and stacked Hyborem with the other one and a Longbow.
Rhoanna was in a peninsula not much far from Dis, a single city defended by some 10 warriors. In 4-5 turns i managed to conquer it. Then i built the useless Heron Throne there (i didn't understood yet the Infernal mechanics) but it was useful to put a Barb city to revolt.

My exploring units took contact with all the other civs and i decided to go in builder mode. Founded 2 more cities (finally moved the free settler), built few more units for defence, and researched Philo then the path to Military strategy to gain the Great Commander, then to Trade to increase my science output. My first GPerson was a GE, which i used to rush the Bone Palace to gain a GA.

But i was behind in tech and score. Dain has Bowyers and many techs on the Arcane path, some has Smelting and variuos more techs.
I used Trade to sell Techs for cash, to keep my research high.
Then i went for the Sheaim, my only neighbour, since Dis war in the Far West (ahem).
Not easy, but i took the sweet Sheaim capital, then i sued for peace for 4 nice techs and money.

I'll post a second one later, have to go now.

 

[Emptiness]

To give you some points to discuss, i just post the chronicle of my just finished game with Hyborem.

[snip]

Cheats: I gave to Sheaim KotE and CoS, so on turn 4 or something Galveholm became the AV Holy city. Then i just moved some resources just outside the BFC in the BFC.

rofl

I'll post a second one later, have to go now.

That's really not necessary. This game can't be used to support any conclusions about the AI. If you're just interested in sharing the story of your game then you can start a new thread, but when you gave yourself free techs (and a religion) you invalidated the game's usefulness as an example game.

 

[BLubmuz]

That's really not necessary. This game can't be used to support any conclusions about the AI. If you're just interested in sharing the story of your game then you can start a new thread, but when you gave yourself free techs (and a religion) you invalidated the game's usefulness as an example game.

I disagree.
Actually, Hyborem starts with advanced units, but the research is pitiful and unless you have manes from AI units died you can't grow your cities. The Infernal cities are just great, maybe even overpowered, but after 50 turns with Hyborem i was some 5 techs behind the worse AI. Also Sheaim, wich i started with, were the most advanced and powerful AI.

Conquering their capital was the start for my rampage. But: where they have the pyre zombies i've seen few turns before start the war? Where was Rosier? why i've found only some few archers and mages in Galveholm?
This is one of the main reasons of this post. My description of the game is only the frame to help your judgement.
I mean: Sheaim has the units and the time to massively defend their capital with 2 shrines and an Academy. Why i never seen those units? mainly Rosier.

Then, much later in the game, the Amurites: they have a massive stack of well promoted Firebows, Swords and Mages. I attacked with a very powerful stack, but half in size than theirs. Have i seen a single fireball throwed at me? some magic? some counterattack? nothing. They gathered in a city waiting for the end.

Then, some 10 turns after this, the Luchuirp: same stack, a city defended by archers, swords, mages and no less than 10 assassins. Barnaxus and Bambur with Ortus' axe.
Do they throw some assassin to kill my Mages? anything? no. Just moved the heroes and a couple units to next city, not even trying to react. They just waited for the end.

This is the reason of this post. This absurd way to fight of the AI.

 

[solanacea]

A general problem for Civ AI, not limited to FFH, is that it doesn't counter-attack on defense. And it doesn't prepare for this kind of defense by having collateral damage or retreat promoted units. I suspect correcting this can have a great impact on AI competitiveness.
Also, pillaging is almost never bad for you. Increasing AI pillaging behaviour may also be a quick fix.