Ratings and Strategy for Unique Units!

[PekkaM]

Yes, Quechua are insane. Just played a continents game with me on one with three AI and two on the other one. Sent first Q exploring and started building barracks (enough time for those AI to get their workers out for me to capture ). My first Q captured one worker off of an AI nation and started "harrassing" by fortifying in a forest across a river from his capital.

Meanwhile the Q started pouring out of my capital (with added 25% against melee upgrade they are pretty unstoppable). I quickly put harrassment Q outside other two capitals also and proceeded to take them out one by one. Every now and then AI would attack my harrasment Q only to give him more exp

 

[Joh]

I'm trying out the france musketeer strategy now.

It looks to be very good. This is just on noble difficulty mind you, but I'll try it on prince later.

I have posted a screenshot of the game as it is now, 12 turns before I've researched gunpowder. I'll post more shots of the war being in progress as it happens, but I'll just describe what has happened so far.

It is early in the 11th centry and roughly what happened was:

1. I started out in a really isolated spot, so made an archer army and trekked down to invade the roman empire (hrrrm...).
2. took one city with the archers then knocked out the romans with my own agressive enhanced swordsmen.
3. Made rome my capital, then started concentrating my research on what was needed for vassalage and gunpowder.


The musketeers will be very handy because:

- my empire is very spread out, and musketeers with the engineering tech will be able to cross it very quickly
- i'm looking to invade the greeks (the light blue next to me), who also have a very spread out empire
- the greeks are still in the classical-medieval era (well most are in 1030 AD) so will have no counters to musketeers, who using their speed, should be able to overwhlem them before counters become available.
- with the agressive enhancement, they wil basically be slighlty weaker (but faster healing and much cheaper) cavalry, who I won't have had to do all that research for...
- greeks have phalanxes, so I'm not at all going to want to use actual cavalry...

 

[panzooka]

i like UUs that u cant go wrong with it.

praetorians
cho ko nu

just build alot of them when first available, they dont have obvious counter.

praetorians on defense, nothing can beat it.
on offense, much better than swordsman.
standard swordsman is 6.6 whgen attacking city, while praetorians have base of 8.

cho ko nu, though u could counter it wth knights, then put some pikeman to defend cho-ko-nu s.
on defense, about the same as longbowman, 25% city defense from longbowman, but 50% against melee from cho ko nu, and 2 first strikes
on offense, colateral damage just rocks, build lots of them and bang them on enemy city.

 

[BlowPhish]

I love the Russian Cossacks. They are usefull for a long period of time especially if you take the right research paths. When you get them you can pillage to kingdom come. Force riflemen to come out of their cities to attack you where your cossacks will have the slight advantage and nullify their fortify bonuses. I like to give them the +10% strength and + 25% vrs gunpowder upgrades.

 

[Astax]

I'm trying out the france musketeer strategy now.

It looks to be very good. This is just on noble difficulty mind you, but I'll try it on prince later.

It works agianst AI for sure but dont try it agianst a player :/ My longest 1v1 on a duel map lasted up to musketeers, so happens the guy was french. Unfortunately for him Im too smart to fall for it. Musketeers get totally eaten by Pinch Knights.

You are in a very good position in your game thou, your starting location allowed you to corridor off the rest of that peninsula so you could graba more land than the AI. You dont have the score on but it looks like AI has 2 cities a piece, you will win no matter the strategy

 

[Joh]

Well it is a huge map with 10 civs, and the AI definitely has more than two cities. I just haven't explored much The minimap is small because calender hasn't been discovered yet.

Musketeers can easily beat out pinch knights though, or at least be as strong as them.

With napoleon, they start with a free combat 1 promotion, so barracks and vassalage should enable you to get combat 2 + formation, which gives them base strength of 11.8 + 2.25 against cavalry, which comes to 14.05 against knights.

Compared to the knights not played by an aggressive leader of 13.5. (combat 1 and pinch) Even if knights have an aggressive leader and also have combat two, taking their strength up to 14.5, musketeers can still be just as strong than this. Movement of two allows them to move 1 space and fortify on same turn, taking their strength up to 14.5 in the open. Combine this with some pikemen and catapults and you have a very strong defensive stack from which the musketeers can be broken off now and then to do some general pillaging of the countryside.

This demonsrates the importance of saving promotions until you know what you are up against. If that guy was a bit better, your knights could have been in for a rough time, especially since knights can't get defensive bonuses, and so you can't have too many. You also have to take into account musketeers cost 10 less hammers than knights and don't need iron or horses. Cheap resourceless cavalry which requires no additional research is handy in its own right, whichever way you look at it

 

[RockStar-holic]

Navy Seals should be able to traverse coastal terrain, one turn to move into the tile and then they could treat the coast as Lvl 2 woodsman/guerillas treat their associated terrains. It would provide a good flanking unit for the US in the late game and wouildn't be over powered since they could potentially face Destroyers/Battleship, perhaps at neg. % for their exposed postion.

 

[Joh]

I've just discovered that swordsmen cannot be upgraded to musketeers, which is a bit sucky, so it's taken me the better part of a century to build up a couple of musketeer armies of about 7 units each.

Still, their speed has allowed me to rush them to the greek borders, who are still in the classical age.

Now that calender is discovered, you can see the sheer size of the map and the fact that the greeks are the current leaders, which makes an early musketeer rush quite a good strategy in this game. Since they are relying heavily on archer units to guard their cities with phalanxes, I'll be upgrading them to combat 2 + cover units.

 

[Joh]

The war is over, and the musketeers have done very well.

Less than a century after it started, they captured 5 greek cities and razed two others, forcing Alexander to escape thorugh another civs borders.

These cities were even defended by longbowmen, which didn't stand a chance, even though the musketeers were not supported by catapults.

Due to the speed at which I was able to muster the forces and launch the attack, as well as keep the attack going, it defintely caught them on the back foot. Moving two tiles in enemy territory is definitely quite useful. And the civ was conquered so fast I ended up with over 1000 more gold than when I had started, despite the fact that I was losing 35 per turn.

So, in my mind at least, the musketeers are a very worthwhile unit, though it does force the french player into a gunpowder rush tech route, and I reckon they would suck if you didn't take Napoleon and vassalage.

Here's a pciture of the victorius musketeers pillaging the countryside.

 

[Joh]

Well, I said the war is over, but I had a change of heart. Right after that picture was taken, Peter just finished researching music, so was close to getting Cossaks. Wasn't about to let him do this, so decided to send the glorius musketeers over the border once more.

The outcome was the screenshot below. It's now 1425, peter is almost finished and musketeers *still* comprise the bulk of my army. Still no catapults, but I don't need them - a veteran musketeer with combat 4 or 5 does horrible things to a longbowman. Peter hasn't had a chance to upgrade his units cause the constant war means he's producing no gold. The only slight change to my force is that I now have bought up some grenadiers with city raider who used to be swordsmen to deliver a knockout punch to heavily fortified cities. With this I managed to get the buddhism holy city and the pyramids.

Research hasn't slowed down at all - I've almost got riflemen, and I've been trading really expensive techs to the civs I've almost completely conquered or are about to conquer in exchange for basic tech requirements like civil service and compass etc.

This game has really changed my opinion of france. The early gunpowder rush with the musketeers moving quickly thorugh enemy territory has worked even better than waiting for redcoats with the british.

 

[salty]

Skirmisher with Raging Barbarians helps a lot

 

[magnate]

I've done some analysis of the tech requirements for UUs, and it's easy to see why rushing to gunpowder for France is a lot easier than waiting for redcoats as England:

Early UUs: (listed in order of total tech cost)

Fast Worker 0
Quechua 0
Skirmisher 100 (Hunting & Archery)
War Chariot 140 (Hunting & Animal Husbandry)
Immortal 160 (The Wheel & Animal Husbandry)
Phalanx 170 (Mining & Bronze Working)
Praetorian 320 (Bronze & Iron Working)
Jaguar 370 (Mining, Bronze & Iron Working)
Keshik 410 (Archery, Animal Husbandry, Horse Riding)

Middle UUs:

Chu-Ko-Nu 1710 (10 techs)
Samurai 3520 (13 techs)
Camel Archer 4050 (18 techs)
Conquistador 4210 (18 techs)
Musketeer 4610 (15 techs)

Late UUs:

Cossack 10800 (19 techs)
Redcoat 11470 (25 techs)
Navy SEAL 42370 (50 techs)
Panzer 49360 (53 techs)


I have no real problem with the Cossack and Redcoat being late, because they both get a big strength boost and other bonuses, but I think the Navy SEAL and the Panzer are way underpowered, given how late they arrive.

I also think this shows why the Praetorian is so popular - the Romans start with Mining, whereas the Aztecs don't. Does anyone share my suspicion that the Jaguar was supposed to be a replacement for the Axeman and somebody screwed up? That would make much more sense. The high cost of horseback riding relative to iron working makes the Keshik less desirable than the Praetorian. I also think the Samurai is underpowered relative to the others in that middle group, given where it comes, and the observation that you can't add the Drill promotion to enhance its natural advantage.

The costs are given based on a normal speed game on a normal sized map at Noble difficulty, and are the lowest cost paths I could find - you might be able to do better. Of course it's not a perfect analysis because you would have to pick up some techs outside these paths (eg. the last group don't require Agriculture!)

CC
P.S. How the **** do you get tabs working on this board?

 

[Sayounara]

I have no real problem with the Cossack and Redcoat being late, because they both get a big strength boost and other bonuses, but I think the Navy SEAL and the Panzer are way underpowered, given how late they arrive.

I agree completely. Panzers and Nazy SEALs are too weak.

When I conquered another nation with Panzers on Immortal level, I met about no more then 2 tanks (And they were easily bombed to uselessness by my planes anyway), while the majority was vs. 100+ infantry, mech infantry, gunship, SAM infantry, and artillery.

Panzers and Nazy SEAL should get at least a +4 in strength each or another free promotion.

 

[GeneralMikeIII]

How about a Humvee for the American UU? Probably to replace Mechanized Infantry and bump the strengh to 35 maybe. Could be too good though, since I think the only land unit with higher strength than the mech inf is the Modern Armor.

The only other options I could see are Minute Men or Apache Helicopter, like mentioned earlier, or maybe like a GI to replace Infantry. I didn't even think about using SEALs (before the list of UUs was announced).

Maybe a new carrier. Give it +2 capacity, +1 movement, and -200% vs. planes .

I really like the Minute Men, the more I think of it. Keep them the same strength as the Rifleman, and make them cost like 3/4 what they should be. Or, they could get a movement bonus and Blitz. Or Free Woodsman II or Guerilla II. Lots of options modders could concider .

P.S.--Does it annoy anyone else that the Redcoats use RIFLES instead of muskets?

 

[Joh]

I'm thinking of starting a game to test out the navy seal next.

It's going to be a huge archigapelo map, aggressive AI, with every victory condition turned off except diplomatic victory. So the only way to win will be to build the UN and conquer enough of the world to vote yourself world leader.

I'm going to see if I can base a strategy around stealth bombers on carriers and navy seals.

interestingly enough though, I reckon France with napeoleon would still do much better in that game than the americans. Industrius is pretty good, and
aggressive means the marines get a free combat 1 promotion.

Depends I guess on whether free combat 1 is better than the SEALS' march.

Finally, back on the subject of musketeers, don't discoust Napoleon's industrius trait. If you get the pyramids early, you could make the msuketeer rush even quicker.

 

[Innawerkz]

Does anyone share my suspicion that the Jaguar was supposed to be a replacement for the Axeman and somebody screwed up? That would make much more sense. The high cost of horseback riding relative to iron working makes the Keshik less desirable than the Praetorian. I also think the Samurai is underpowered relative to the others in that middle group, given where it comes, and the observation that you can't add the Drill promotion to enhance its natural advantage.

Thanks for the analysis.

Excellent observation on the Aztec, as well. It would make perfect sense to have the Jaguar as a resourceless Axeman. Should he get the +50% bonus vs melee in place of City Bonus? Hmm... would make him a real fun unit to play with. Aggressive & Spiritual would be SO much fun with a GOOD UU. The Jaguar makes me stray from them when I don't play Random leader.

Keshik: Is desirable to me as the mobility cannot be denied. Ability to move onto a Mine and pillage in the same turn to cut Iron is huge. This is one of the few units I leave a few non-upgraded to keep their movement bonus in enemy territory. Excellent scouts and pillaging is 1st class. I can typically (not always though ) outlast Praetorians with combination of Archers & Axemen while teching to Longbowmen, but being choked/pillaged to death by fast moving units is difficult to counter.

Samurai: The 2 First strikes make up for it. Add the 10% to strength (Japan = Aggressive) and there is not a unit short of a Knight that can easily weaken it. Samurai & Pikemen = EVIL

I don't think the Conquistador's merit as a non-stop force has been hi-lit yet...

A 2 movement 10 base strength unit with a 50% bonus vs. melee & 2 first strikes? In the open field, there is little to stop it. Even the Phalanx on a hill is straight odds. Pikemen are underdogs too! Tsk, tsk.

EDIT: Typo

 

[Bezhukov]

I like playing Washington (Fin+Org = commerce domination) so have some experience with the SEAL, and though I've never lacked Oil, I have in some cases chosen them over tanks, or at least mixed the two.

With a built-in first strike and march, SEALs tend to be more resilient than tanks, especially, and this is key, on defense, where tanks get no def bonuses. Seals are you're best city defenders until Mech Infantry, which is a good way down the line from Industrialism. Their bonus vs. artillery can be especially handy, as the aggressive AI's tend to beeline for the artillery tech and bring large stacks to press their tech advantage. SEALs also make better pillagers than tanks, for the reasons cited above (march, first-strike, terrain defense bonuses).

On offense, they're not so hot. Carriers not being able to bring bombers really hurts the SEAL's city-taking effectiveness, as the AI is likely to have at least SAM's by this point. If you can pick on a backward civ who still has only Machine Guns, you're good, but there are usually more pressing duties for your SEALs unless you're already got the game in the bag, though with first-strike and march, a suicide SEAL strategy could be viable, as even when losing they should inflict good damage, while the winnners recover quickly.

 

[salty]

I don't know why you guys like cho-ku-nus. I like them on defense, but on offence, not so much. You need machinery for a 6 strength unit? Even with a bundle of first strikes they don't seem to last very long. On the other hand, musketeers with move of 2 good for protecting your cavalry as they move into to enemy terrority or protecting your advance catapult/cannon column, pillage as you move.

 

[Thalassicus]

Don't forget War Chariots also have a strength of 5, ignore first strikes, and can be built with Animal Husbandry That's 1 strength less than Horse Archers, but they have a 20% withdraw chance (which Horse Archers don't have), and can be built earlier.


What do you think of these changes? (highlighted in bold)

Jaguar
- 5-1
- No resource requirement
- +20% city attack
- Woodsman II

Keshik
- 6-2
- 1 first strike
- Doesn't recieve defensive bonuses
- Ignores terrain movement costs
- 20% withdraw chance

Musketeer
- 9-2
- Ignores city defenses (gunpowder)
- Can upgrade Axemen, Swordsmen, Macemen to Musketeers (with promotions intact)

Panzer
- 28-2
- 1 first strike
- Doesn't recieve defensive bonuses
- +50% vs Armored
- Blitz

Apache (Replaces Gunship)
- 20-5
- 1 first strike
- +100% vs armored
- 25% withdraw chance
- Ignores terrain movement costs
- March

 

[jeremiahrounds]

Panzar is fine. It might be a slight upgrade but its a slight upgrade to an important unit that you were going to make anyway. I make tanks regardless of what im playing.

Alot of these units are upgrades to units whos core value i dont appreciate. Take the apache suggestion. Thats fine but under normal circumstances i hate the fact that helicopters cant use rails so i dont make them. Your upgrade a unit that i would only use if it was a UU and so its likely that ill view it as a trade off.

However with the panzar im making tanks anyway and im quite happy to have them upgraded. And the upgrade is significant if your fighting off a foriegn stack.