Razing cities

Pawlak

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Jul 22, 2007
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I remember it was terrible in vanilla, but in mod I also believe it's restricted in wrong way.
Why can't I raze Mediolan, while Huns regularly destroy Rome? It's just frustrating gameplay wise but also break immersion in substantial way. It just feels outright as some game restrictions that can't in any way be explained as some kind of history simulation.
I get that reasons why is it so, is that ex-capitols can't be razed by normal civs but nomadic civs automatically raze anything they conquer, correct?
If so, I would propose we just get rid of that ex-capitols thing unless there is good reason for that, but even in that case I would argue only starting capitols of major civs should be treated this way. While for nomadics civs perhaps make at least holy cities unrazeble, maybe make them liberate them automatically as minor civ or something like that.
My case for leaving as non-razeble holy cities and only them is that destruction of them makes religions disappear, typically there is no Catholicism ever, and this makes Europe weird in every run. Like having Orthodox or Islamic Europe once in a while is cool, I even like such outcome, but having it never Catholic, while also having Rome as a religious minor civ without Catholicism is just weird in my opinion. While I am at it, perhaps Spain or other religious civ in Europe could spawn Protestantism instead of Buddhism if both Catholicism and Orthodoxy are taken? Protestantism spawning in middle ages or renaissance is cool and if Spain is suddenly Protestant, that is cool uchronic event, but it suddenly inventic Buddhism is just immersion breaking. I get that civ5 religion is whole another subject, it has it's pros and cons. Back to city razing, if there are unrazable cities, I would say holy cities make most sense for it. As for other cities being razed and leaving map empty, maybe respawining relevant cities as minor civs in particular eras (if territory is not occupied already) would be cool solution for that, better then just not letting player raze ex-capitols. Also it could work for holy cities after being razed (it could be cool way to make every city raze-able) - perhaps on respawns historical holy city could get holy city status of relevant religion if in-game holy city of said religion has been razed already. This way medieval Rome respawn would bring Catholicism back no matter how flattened ancient Rome had been by Huns. It would still not guarantee that religion dominance over Europe, so such outcome would be interesting and immersive in my opinion.
 
It's frustrating that you can't raze city-states and minor civ capitals. I am starting to get used to it. But I think the simplest path to improvement would be enabling it, if it can be done.

Assuming some of them cannot be razed, I suggest the mod visually show which of them can and cannot be razed. (I thought maybe the triangular "temple" icon on the banner of some independent cities indicated that, but I don't think so... some minor civs have more than one city with that icon, and I think I've seen that it's possible to raze some cities that have the icon. So, I'm not sure what the icon means, either in this mod or in base Civ 5.)

I think there's some interesting potential yet to be developed in this mod in the general area of puppet cities and allied city-states. I'm not sure what, exactly. But for example, maybe puppet cities cause less of a stability hit than normal settled/annexed ones. That would make conquest, and the fact that you can't raze city-states, less painful. Or maybe it could be possible to demote a puppet city to an allied city-state, even in cases where the "liberate" option is not currently available. Or maybe you could demote normal settled/annexed cities to puppets.

I do think that it's probably good/OK for razing cities to cause a stability hit. I'm not sure whether that's implemented, currently.

However, the base game does already make razing cities give diplomacy hits, and I think the diplomacy hits can be pretty serious as-is.

And furthermore, even if razing cities does come with a cost, I hope that Domination victories can be possible in the mod. I did it experimentally in v88 as Greece (an early victory before Rome spawns, on the easiest difficulty) and I'm working on it in a v94 Rome game. I suspect it's possible with Mongolia too.
 
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"Does stability take diplo hits into account already?"
I think probably not, because the Interior Overview lists specific stability factors in detail, and the attitudes of other civs toward you isn't listed there.
 
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And furthermore, even if razing cities does come with a cost, I hope that Domination victories can be possible in the mod. I did it experimentally in v88 as Greece (an early victory before Rome spawns, on the easiest difficulty) and I'm working on it in a v94 Rome game. I suspect it's possible with Mongolia too.

After doing some analysis, I don't think Domination is currently possible in general, although I think it probably can be done before the medieval era.

This is untested - all I did was look at the Atlas and read the stability code. My conclusions seem consistent with what I remember from games, but that's all I can say.

I think the Territorial Loyalty factors are these. From TerritoryBaseScore() in inGame/RyeStability.lua.
+20 base
+20 if you're currently in a golden age
+40 max religion bonus (down to -40 or more)
+7 per green city
-10 per light green city (actually -9)
-20 per yellow city (actually -21)
-30 per red city (actually -29)
There's a penalty for having foreign cities in your core area (roughly your flip area, I didn't read the code carefully).
There's a penalty if your empire used to be larger.

So you can only break even with maybe 4 red cities. But Rome needs 5-10 red cities, not to mention 1.5 red-cities-worth of light green ones.

Pre-medieval Rome domination would look like this:
80 (base + golden + religion)
40 for 6 green cities including Sur
-10 greece
-150 egypt, persia, india, china, japan
= -40 Territorial Loyalty. That's doable in theory, although in practice you couldn't get the maximum religion bonus. If you also had to conquer Arabia and later spawns, it doesn't look possible.

If you wanted to do a later Domination victory for fun, I think you could hack the Stability code to make the penalties smaller.
 
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so population in said cities no longer factors in, it is just number of cities?
 
That's right: population doesn't affect the Territorial Loyalty stability factor.
 
And that's assuming everyone is doing OCC, but there are cities on the way before getting to the capitols: do you keep them? (stability hit) or do you raze them? (stability hit)

A solution would be an enormous army waiting at all borders and conquering everything in 1 turn :D
 
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