RB2 - Clueless Catherine Conquers Crowded Continents

Ok, since Kylearan replied, I'll put this in a new post.

We shouldn't have 150 horses. I counted 12 in the save. I don't know, but using an obvious bug to make heaps of money - is that something we want to do?
Personally, I don't think Gold Ergo Sum should just have played his turns, he should have asked the group what to do in the situation, this is not single player after all. Sorry if that sounds a little harsh, no offense intended.

That brings me to my second point:
Since the conquest of the Ottomans, I haven't seen a very clear strategy - everyone played solid turns, but more or less on their own, didn't they?
Aretii said he wants to go the ICS route - but from posts of Kylearan at RB I gathered that he considers that he doesn't like that very much (please correct me if I'm wrong).
Also, we have the tech and resources to build catapults, yet none are being constructed? Why?
Edit:
Are horses so strong we don't need them maybe?

Here's what I'd do in my turns, with the current situation:
Order (or just buy, with that amount of money...) two catapults, bring them to Lhasa. Edit: Unless horses are stronger, then I'll buy those.
Take out Lhasa - both Helsinki AND Dublin want it gone. If we take Lhasa, China will be completely surrounded by us and city states allied with us. It will fall very easily.

However, before I play, I'd like more input from the group, specifically on how to proceed with the horses bug and what our longterm strategy should be.
 
We shouldn't have 150 horses. I counted 12 in the save. I don't know, but using an obvious bug to make heaps of money - is that something we want to do?
Thanks for counting, I had wanted to do this today too, to confirm it's really a bug. And I agree, we should try not to exploit that - it diminishes the feeling of accomplishment when we've won, at least for me.

Since the conquest of the Ottomans, I haven't seen a very clear strategy - everyone played solid turns, but more or less on their own, didn't they?
Agreed. I see this happening in other SGs as well - people proposing a strategy (ICS, Steel-beeline, ...) and getting almost no responses. I think this is really because the game is still new to us, and maybe people don't feel confident enough to argue one way or another. I remember this happened in the first Civ 4 SGs as well.

As I said, I'd like to use the horseman era to attack either Wu or Washington (depending on the resources they have), and Gold Ergo Sum proposed this as well - what do the others think about this?

I don't think we need to cash-rush the units though. It seems we have run out of useful builds anyway, so producing some horsemen manually should be sufficient and we can spend the money on something else - research agreements would be my favorite. And while dealing with Wu and/or Washington with our current technology, we could head for Gunpowder next for the next round of conquests.

Aretii said he wants to go the ICS route - but from posts of Kylearan at RB I gathered that he considers that he doesn't like that very much (please correct me if I'm wrong).
I hadn't commented on Aretii's suggestion because I had hoped others would voice their opinion first. In general, I don't like exploitative strategies very much and would rather avoid them. However, it's also a "new" strategy and I think it's fine to do it at least once to experience its power, so I wouldn't be strictly against it in this game. I'd not go that route if this were a single-player game, but I'd be fine with doing it here if the majority wants it.

Also, we have the tech and resources to build catapults, yet none are being constructed? Why?
Good question - please do construct some. :)

Are horses so strong we don't need them maybe?
I don't understand - what do you mean by this?

Here's what I'd do in my turns, with the current situation:
Order (or just buy, with that amount of money...) two catapults, bring them to Lhasa. Edit: Unless horses are stronger, then I'll buy those.
Take out Lhasa - both Helsinki AND Dublin want it gone. If we take Lhasa, China will be completely surrounded by us and city states allied with us. It will fall very easily.
Sounds like a plan! As stated above, I'm not sure buying is necessary - depends on how long manual construction would take. Last time I had the save, we only had lots of spears but nothing else for "offensive" units. Do we have swordmen by now? If yes, we only need catapults. If not, I think we should get some horsemen. Their speed is awesome.
 
Are horses so strong we don't need them maybe?
I don't understand - what do you mean by this?
Ah, sorry, that was worded badly. I meant "Are horses so strong that we don't need catapults?".
Because that was the reason I could think of that none were built/queued yet :)

Anyway, I'll wait until tomorrow morning until I play, that should give the others time to chime in (yay for long train commutes ;)).
 
I should've just counted up the horses and looked up Cathy's UA to see if it was a glitch. I knew we had several pastures, and I knew her UA increased resource output, but I figured 160 had to be a glitch. I thought the point of these early succession games were to "kick the tires" so to speak to put glitches, exploits and questionable strategies out there for open, and well documented viewing. From that perspective, I would vote for exploiting the hell out of the horses to show just how ridiculous the glitch could be, and to do the ICS strategy as well. That's just me though. I can go back and replay the turns from turn 100 (I autosave every turn) and not sell any horsies if people would prefer that. At this point, I am not going to get much accomplishment out of beating the AI on any difficulty other than Diety until the game gets fixed. Better to make the glitches as well known as possible to encourage Firaxis to fix them right? But if people want me to replay, I certainly can. I have about two hours when I get home tonight to play before I have to leave for Los Angeles.

As for catapults, they are very strong, but I honestly think they slow you down. Horses move so much faster that we might as well just bring 5-6 horses at Wu or Washington and get it over with quicker. We might take more losses that way, but we gain extra turns overall with those cities. That said, cats are obviously overpowered and the AI has no clue how to use them or deal with them properly.

We have no swordsmen because the Iron mine just finished. We could spend some of our ill begotten gains on upgrades of the Spearmen if that is possible.

I also think we should end Lhasa's run. If we are going to ICS, then a cultural city-state doesn't help us that much.
 
I don't think you should replay, we'll just roll with it. I just wanted to know how we'll handle it in the future. :)
Spearmen don't upgrade to swords, but warriors do, so I'll promote those. As for cats, I'll queue some up once horses finish, I think. We'll want some artillery around, and upgrading is so ridiculously cheap that we might as well get our siege now.
 
I thought the point of these early succession games were to "kick the tires" so to speak to put glitches, exploits and questionable strategies out there for open, and well documented viewing. From that perspective, I would vote for exploiting the hell out of the horses to show just how ridiculous the glitch could be, and to do the ICS strategy as well.
There's a difference between glitches (bugs in the software) like the 160 horses thing and holes in the game mechanics like ICS. You are right, this is an early SG, so I'm open to exploit silly game mechanics if this helps to convince others that this breaks the game. If the team wants to go ICS, let's do this by all means.

However, our 160 horses are obviously a programming error that should get fixed by Firaxis, and probably will be if they are aware of it - there's nobody that thinks this is a feature ;). It's not a problem with game design, so please let's try not to exploit this in the future.

I can go back and replay the turns from turn 100
No, that's not necessary IMHO. We gained an advantage by it, but not a game-breaking one if we refrain from doing so again. But thanks for the offer. :)
 
I assume none of the rest of you were familiar with this glitch either? Surely someone has played with Cathy and seen this happen before?
 
Lurkers Comment:

It probably would be a good idea for someone in this SG to report it as I have not seen it in any post so far outside of here.
 
My guess is that the glitch has something to do with computational errors whenever a trade ends. It must stack on the original amount or something. Or we keep getting our horses back from Bismarck repeatedly due to the notification glitch. I may take that save down the road and see how may horses we end up with if you keep trading. Does it go up into the 1000s? And exactly what causes it to happen?
 
Lurker Comment:
I can confirm that it has to do with the "Trade End Notification". In 5 different games with different Civs I have had Horses, Iron and Oil all "multiply" because of trades that keep ending turn after turn. I thought it just had to do with trades that were made as part of a peace treaty but my last 2 games it happened on Horse and Iron from just give-me-money trades.

Edit:
Oh and I have usually seen it end after about 20 turns. but that is just what I have seen; some shorter, some longer. I havent figured out what the trigger is.
 
WOAH!!! I just found that the AI is getting the same glitch we are regarding Strategic resources. I traded away my horses to Alexander for his iron. now I go into a trade with him much later in the game and he has 80 Iron and I have 96 Horses!
 
WOAH!!! I just found that the AI is getting the same glitch we are regarding Strategic resources. I traded away my horses to Alexander for his iron. now I go into a trade with him much later in the game and he has 80 Iron and I have 96 Horses!

That is insanely broken on Diety where the A.I. can literally spit out unlimited units.
 
Ok, I'll play tomorrow morning (GMT+1, that is). Goals:
Settle on cows.
Try to take Lhasa.
Set up for attack on China.
 
Any consensus on what to do with the extra cash?

1) Buy more horsemen or some catapults?

2) Save it to rush buy Colosseums for the ICS spam?

3) Gift it back to the AIs it came from?

4) Save it to buy allied status with another maritime city-state down the road?

If we are doing ICS, it pretty much relies on TP spam from what I have read. I haven't actually tried it yet.
 
Ok, I played. Here's the report.


Turn 105 (250 BC, handed over turn):
Ok, what to do with out ill-gotten gains? :lol:
I upgrade our two warriors (garrisoned in St. Pete and Moscow) to swordsmen for 90 G each.
We're good happiness wise, so I change the build in Moscow from a circus to a horseman.

IBT:
Philosophy finishes, Istanbul and Moscow love the king (dyes).
Caesar and someone unknown enter medieval era.
Horse trades finish. Again. And again. :crazyeye:

Turn 106 (225 BC);
Istanbul has finished building a library, I set it to build a catapult next.
Since Collosseums are an integral part of the ICS strategy, we'll research Masonry (due in two turns), so that we can go for Construction next.
I intended on attacking Lhasa this turn, but then I took a closer look at the situation:
RB2_225BC_Lhasa_defenders.jpg


Two spears and two archers. I'm not really confident that I can take those with the forces we have down there.
For reference: I'll be talking about the different spears we have down there later. I'll designate them "western", "north eastern" and "eastern" spear, obviously based on their position around Lhasa on this screenshot. It might get a bit confusing to read, since there's three spears from our side and two from Lhasa...

So, I decide to buy a catapult in St. Pete (which is closest to the frontlines) for 480 g after all. Both that catapult and the sword that was garrisoned in St. Pete are ordered to move down to Lhasa. I know we didn't want to do this initially, but again, I think we need it.
Also note the position of Monty's and Washington's scouts on the above screenshot. They'll be the cause of major headache soon. :mad:


I found Novgorod on the cows west of Istanbul, as discussed in the thread.
We can adopt a new policy, but I refrain from doing so for now. We have the choice between Discipline (double experience for our units) and warrior caste (-1 unhappiness for every garrisoned unit). I'll leave that decision to the group.

IBT:
Nothing happens.

Turn 107 (200 BC):
Nothing happens, expect for troop movements.

IBT:
Wu complains that we are expanding "in lands I feel are mine". I apologize (the "nice" reply") - if only she knew what's coming for her, heh :).
Montezuma wants us to go to war with Washington, I (again) politely decline.
Washington was apparently at war with the city state of Tyre, but they make peace now.

In research related matters, Masonry comes in.


Turn 108 (175 BC):
Research is set to Construction, which is due in three turns.
Our workers busy themselves with building trade posts.
Our catapult and sword continue lumbering towards Lhasa.
The american and incan scouts still haven't moved, grr.

IBT:
Lots of diplomatic messages come up!
Wu dials us up just to insult us:
RB2_175BC_Wu_insult.jpg

That hussy! You just wait!
Bismarck comes around and asks us for a gift of 192 gold. Now, normally, I would decline that, but I feel a little bit bad about how we conned him out of his money with our magically multiplying horses, so just this one time, I give in to my bad conscience.
Monty is worried about the large number of our Units (sic) near his borders. Waitwhat? Lhasa's not yours! I tell him not to worry (polite reply).
Also, Wu completes the Great Wall, which, while fitting, won't do her much good in the end, we'll see to that. Eventually.

Turn 109 (150 BC):
More twiddling of thumbs as our units inch closer to Lhasa.

IBT:
A big surprise: Nothing happens for a change.

Turn 110 (125 BC):
I'm staring to shuffle our units around Lhasa a bit, namely I try to get the chariot out of range of the Lhasan spear while still having it in range to fire on something.
The catapult has finally arrived and it takes position behind the spear-on-a-hill two tiles NE of Lhasa.
Those scouts don't move. They just sit there. This is really, really annoying, because they block one of the assault routes to Lhasa :mad:

IBT:
Construction comes in. Nothing on the diplomatic front two turns in a row, a new record!

Turn 111 (100BC):
Since we'll want to hook up those whales NW of Novgorod at some point, I put research to Sailing, which'll finish in two turns.
FINALLY, everything's in position for the attack on Lhasa (well, not entirely true, our swordsman needs to run around to the western side because of those BLASTED SCOUTS IN THE WAY).
Our northeastern spearman draws first blood by attacking and redlining the archer directly NE of Lhasa. Our catapult finishes that archer off.
1-0 for the good guys!
Our other units don't attack yet - they are positioned in good defensive terrain - better to let Lhasa attack them instead of running out into the open.
Our chariot archer and sword still "maneuver".

IBT:
Lhasan counter-attack:
Our spears to the west (who shares the tile with our GG) defends successfully against a Lhasan spear. We come out nearly without scratch, the attacker is redlined.
Lhasa bombards our spear to the direct east, 1 damage taken.
One fishy thing: There's a LOT of troops movements by Washington in this area.

Turn 112 (75BC).
Our NE spear moves one tile close to Lhasa, so the catapult can move up on the hill:
RB2_75BC_Lhasa_war_ss1.jpg


Our western spear west destroys its Lhasan counterpart, but is taken to yellow hitpoints by the fight.

IBT:
Second Lhasan counter-attack:
The spear from the SE attacks our eastern spear (which is still on a hill) - and dies while doing negligible amounts of damage.
Our spear closest to Lhasa doesn't fare that well - he's attacked by the garrisoned spear and brought down to one HP. Ouch.
Due to all that combat, another Great General is born in Moscow, woohoo.
Sailing research finishes.


Turn 113 (50BC):
Istanbul finishes its catapult and is ordered to build a Collosseum.
Research is set to Civil Service - both for the food bonus and the unlocking of pikemen. This won't finish until Kylearan's turn, so can still be changed.
Our catapult bombards Lhasa.
I have our two spears on the eastern front switch places - if the one close to Lhasa is killed by the garrison, our catapult will be exposed. Also, just maybe, Lhasa will focus on the fresh spear and give the wounded one a bit of time to heal.


IBT:
Ah, diplomacy!
Bismarck comes asking us to declare war on Caesar - I politely decline.
Ok, here's the reason why Washington shuffled those units around:
RB2_25BC_Washington_Wu_war.jpg


Washington declares on Wu :wow: - didn't see that one coming.
Unfortunately, Lhasa does the smart thing and bombards our wounded spear, which dies :( - RIP our first casualty in this conflict.

Turn 114 (25 BC):
Moscow finishes our fist horseman and I order it to the front immediately. Since we have a gazillion horses (they keep multiplying because the trades keep "running out" :crazyeye:) I order up another one.
Edirne finishes its courthouse :woohoo:, and is also ordered to build a horseman.
West of Lhasa, I have our healthy swordsman exhange places with our wounded spear.

IBT:
Lhasa attacks our sword with a spear and fails (spear takes a lot of damage).
And Washington founds Boston directly S of Moscow :mad:
RB2_0AD_Boston.jpg


Turn 115 (0 AD):
Our catapult does what it does best - bombard Lhasa.
Our swordman takes out the wounded Lhasan spear. This resulting front looks like this:
RB2_0AD_Lhasa_war_ss2.jpg


And that's it for my turnset!
Overview of our empire:
RB2_0AD_overview.jpg


This is the situation:
Lhasa's pretty much down for the count. It has one archer left (west, next to our sword).
Our second catapult and our first horseman are about to enter the scene there as well.
Additionally, three horses will finish in the next turnset (Edirne, Istanbul, St. Pete).

The incan and american scouts STILL hang around Lhasa - I have no idea if the AI is capable of pulling such a move, but maybe we need to be careful that they don't steal Lhasa from under our noses?

One thing I mabye should've done, but didn't is buy the whale tile near Novgorod, but then again, that can wait until we actually have a workboat.
Financially, we're doing good, 30 gpt at the moment. Happiness is at 5. We have 390 horses!

For the near future:
Kylearan should be able to take Lhasa without much trouble.
I'm tempted to let Washingon throw himself against China and then backstab him when he's busy over there. It seems he sent most of his army that way, so with our Lhasan taskforce and our upcoming horses, we should be able to pretty much crush him. He seems to have mostly warriors and archers.

Kylearan -> UP
Aretii -> on deck
SleepingMoogle
Gold Ergo Sum
MuLepton -> completed
 

Attachments

You know, instead of spending 500g to rush a catapult, for the same sum you could have simply allied with Lhasa for free culture... :D

The return of the Civ3 unit blockades in neutral territory is one of the silliest things about the new tile movement restrictions. It's a major reason why I'm not convinced the one unit per tile restrictions have actually improved the gameplay.
 
The return of the Civ3 unit blockades in neutral territory is one of the silliest things about the new tile movement restrictions. It's a major reason why I'm not convinced the one unit per tile restrictions have actually improved the gameplay.
The AI could be improved to detect something like this - this wouldn't be hard to do (if no path to the target can be found, check for a blockade. It might get a little bit more complex for choke point blokades, but even that would be possible.). The AI could then complain to the offending player and even declare war on him if this doesn't help.

So I think it's not an inherent weakness of 1UPT, but (again :rolleyes: ) a flaw in the AI. I doubt something like this will be implemented, though.

I'm sooo tempted to try out my AI improvement ideas once the SDK is out...if not for lack of time, I'd love to see what could be done here. For years I've been thinking about how I would do a unit AI (although I haven't thought much about 1UPT yet). But now that I have a family, I doubt I will ever find the time for this. Or for all the other dozens of projects I always wanted to do... :rolleyes:
 
True enough, I guess. I think we get more net influence out of conquering Lhasa, since both Dublin and Helsinki want it gone. Yes, we're already allied with Helsinki, but it'll still be the equivalent of gifting them 250g + whatever it is we gain with Dublin.
Dublin isn't cultural, of course. The advantage I see with the way we're doing it now is that after we take Lhasa, China's surrounded by us and city states allied with us.

Also, we'll continue using the catapult... hopefully ;)

And yeah, that scout blockade is annoying. Very much so.
 
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