RB24 - Big Brother

And things got interesting:



Well, the question of asking Monty for help is moot at the moment, as we don't have anything to pay him for the alliance.

And unfortunately, Louis can't be bribed into the war either, as he just declared on Victoria this same turn so he's too busy! Nobody else is willing to join us either.
 
Go get that sweet floodplains spot she stole from us :hammer: :)
 
So what have we here?

We have a *huge* GNP lead, nearly double that of anyone else (go Organized!)

We trail only Monty in score, and only slightly.

We have something of a power deficit, though less of a discrepancy than our GNP advantage, and Monty's in the lead.

Monty is STILL only Pleased, at +12 relations

We just got Education, now researching Philosophy on our way to Liberalism. However, I change the research path to Banking - Economics instead. Banking will trade for Monty's Optics just as well as Philosophy. I'd like to reach Free Market sooner rather than later.

There's no rush to the Liberalism slingshot. We don't need the civics. Only Monty has Education, and only Victoria has Philosophy but she lacks Education (and Paper) and is furious at Monty so no trading Philo to him.

Rome city is providing about half of our total economy, thanks to Bureaucracy + Academy + Colossus + size 16 thanks to windmills on the hills.

We've built no national wonders. The Forbidden Palace is under construction, but we're still without all of the others. I shall set about remedying that.

Oxford must certainly go in Rome, as soon as we get the universities done.

Heroic Epic, I decree, shall go in Neapolis. This city has little commerce potential, but quite many hills and loads of farmed plains (after Biology, some can even be converted to workshops.)

National Epic, I decree, shall go in Ravenna. Ravenna has the best food supply to run specialists in the long run. (Pisae can't run any more than two specialists.) Arretium is almost as good, but farming Arretium to max food would require farming over mature cottages, while Ravenna gets its food from natural terrain (resources and the oasis.) Also, Arretium is committed to the Forbidden Palace, while Ravenna can pair NE with the Globe Theatre if we want.


==========

In 1430 AD (turn 5), Banking comes in. Montezuma changes to Mercantilism even before we try to trade the tech to him. :) Also our Forbidden Palace completes this turn, and saves a good 20/turn in maintenance costs.


Spain demands Engineering. If not for the variant rule that I was bluntly reminded about on my last turn, I'd cough it up. :mischief: But I refuse. And then:



Well, the question of asking Monty for help is moot at the moment, as we don't have anything to pay him for the alliance.

And unfortunately, Louis can't be bribed into the war either, as he just declared on Victoria this same turn so he's too busy! Nobody else is willing to join us either.

I change research to Gunpowder for obvious reasons, planning to Liberalism-slingshot Chemistry next.

Anyway, on the war front, many cities change their builds to Knights. Right now we need mobile counterattacking units. I expect we won't go after any core cities until Grenadiers.

The Spanish city of Valencia is exposed and vulnerable on our border. I scramble six Praets and one axe upgraded to mace to attack it next turn.


1442 AD (turn 7): We attack Valencia. The first attack is a CR2 Praet against a longbow at 26%, but we win! Then our mace attacks the defending axeman at 76%, and loses. :crazyeye: Two more Praets clean up the damaged axe and a catapult.



We burn that sorry burg, of course.

1454 AD (turn 9): Isabella's first stack of any note has appeared by Rome: two maces, a horse archer, and a spear. If I hire an engineer and wait one turn, Rome can whip out that knight for only one population. I do hate to whip the capital at that size, but we need to. I've got about two praets and two catapults scrambling from nearby cities, but can't be sure that that'll be enough. I also double-whip a knight in Pisae.

1460 AD: That stack just waits there, but gets joined by another maceman.

1466 AD: That stack STILL just waits there. Get off the 75% defense tile, please!

1472 AD (12): Gunpowder has come in. Now we need to research Liberalism, so I flip Engineering to Louis for Philosophy plus cash.

Despite the uneven year count, I'm going to pass off here, since we really need a team discussion as to whether to bring Monty in against Isabella. We currently owe Philosophy and Gunpowder to Monty; he can give us Music and Optics in return, and he would also join us against Isabella in the same deal. I have not given Monty a birthday gift, as what we can give depends on how we handle the techs and alliances.

Spain has two mini stacks threatening us: at Rome and at Ravenna. Both are currently on 75% defense tiles so I have not counterattacked.

Liberalism is due in 9 turns, and I think it's a no-brainer to slingshot Chemistry and start building Grenadiers. They bust longbow-defended cities like balloons, and Isabella is still missing both Gunpowder prerequisites.

Pisae will pop a Great Person soon, something like 80% Scientist / 20% Engineer. If a Scientist, should probably settle in Rome; if an Engineer, I don't know -- perhaps save for the Statue of Liberty?
 
My money was on Monty versus Issy. I was half right. Our power deficit probably played into our hands, as Issy would probably have thought twice if we were stronger. Now we get to :hammer:

My feedback:

On Monty and the War
If we can get Monty into the war, he shouldn't be in any danger. The main reason we might want him in a war against Issy is so that he doesn't take a potshot at our unprotected backs. I doubt Issy could buy him in, BUT Kylearan mentioned he was building up for a war, and if we're committed to Issy he might consider us a tempting target.

Plus, 'lil bro is the boisterous type.

On the specialist
A scientist could also be saved for a Golden Age. With lots of cities, a GA could be a powerful application of Great People.

On War in General
Let's eat Spain and become Big and Fat. Let's blow up Issy with Grenadiers.

Technically, I'm up next. I'll wait for feedback, though, as I can only play tomorrow afternoon (about 16 hours) anyway.
 
Lil' Bro needs to train his troops somewhere other than our frontyard, so sicc'in him on Issy is just what he needs to flex his little muscles. We should be able to cherry pick the sites we want, starting with our pastures of plenty north of Rome.

Settling scientists is generally a good thing. But Engineers are another matter, as there always seems to be a nice building to put up somewhere. And the Statue of Liberty is always a dandy.
 
@T-Hawk - how do you get your city names looking so big in the overview shot?
 
Thx. I was about to say a non-approved RB mod until I read further in the thread. I'll take a closer look at the mod and might put sections of it into my RB themes (which I will run past you before using).

Edit: not themes, actual XML which will go in the custom assets directory - cool - I can flip these in without worrying about changing my colour theme.
 
Nothing else?

Well, got it, will play tonight, about 10 hours from now. There's still some time for a few last comments, and unless there's other opinions, I'll go full war mode, 'sic the Monty on Issy and try and build some decent forces for the next leader to go a-conquering with...
 
Hi,

I was on a hiking tour over the weekend and couldn't respond - sorry for forgetting to notify you all. :blush: As a weak excuse, I could tell you that I was away researching how Izzy's city defenses should look like once we've dealt with her:



(These are the ruins of the upper castle of Manderscheid, for those who are interested. Yes, that city has a lower castle as well, in arrow's range, and both castles have been owned by different factions in the past who waged war against each other. Yes, RL history can be as strange as CIV games sometimes. :crazyeye: )

Regarding our game, good job T-hawk dealing with the war! :thumbsup: And the FP saved us 20gpt? Wow, I don't think I ever got out of it as much before - but then I've never had to play with such an odd-shaped empire before either. :)

I have mixed feelings about bringing Monty into our war. It would give him something to do with all his units, and better yet would make him friendly finally. But...it somehow feels wrong to tell little brother what to do. (Or for that matter, to threaten Izzy "If you will hurt me, I'll go get my, uh, little brother to help me!" :p ) The rules don't disallow it, and I'm okay with doing it if the majority decides so, but I vote against it.

-Kylearan
 
I vote nah too. If she brings in some help, so should we, till then why share the spoils with your brother?

Ky- I did a 2 week castle tour - and Germany has some of my favorites. There is one in the south in the middle of a river :crazyeye: - sometime RL is crazier than civ. Thanks for the pic.
 
Let's look it at from the perspective of our end goal -- to get Montezuma to win the space race. Would it help or hurt him towards that end to bring him in against Isabella?

He's likely to hurt his GNP by capturing territory from Spain. But that's not a big deal, since our own economy already dominates the game. But Monty capturing territory will help his production, and in the end I think will help him get the spaceship done sooner. It'll also give him more production in the meantime, to keep his military on top. And it will get him to Friendly status with us, which is an aspect I'd rather not ignore.

I vote yes on bringing in Monty against Isabella. But it's up to theGrimm.

Finally, who says he's our 'little' brother? Weren't Romulus and Remus twins? Can't a pair of brothers do things together as equal partners? :)
 
Yes: Bede, T-Hawk
No: Kylearan, Atlas
No comment: Sirian.

However, while there is no variant rule against drawing him into the war, there is this one:

"10) We want to maintain Friendly relations at all times, if possible, with our Little Brother. (Will take time to get to that point, but once there, we want to stay there). We will never ask Little Brother for a Defensive Pact, but will happily agree to one if he asks us (he will know best when to sign one!)."

Drawing him into the war makes it possible to achieve friendly relationships with 'lil bro.

According to Uberfish in T-Hawks Adv 14 report over at RB, aggressive AI's is simply an invisible -4/-5 modifier against the human. That might be of interest here?

We don't need to decide right away. I'll hold off on making that decision (ensuring Monty gets the outstanding techs and a gift on the inherited turn), and see how the war goes. Perhaps the next leader can draw him in with liberalism if it proves necessary or desirable (or if Issy stomps me on my turn.)
 
Hi,

theGrimm said:
According to Uberfish in T-Hawks Adv 14 report over at RB, aggressive AI's is simply an invisible -4/-5 modifier against the human. That might be of interest here?
It is, as I didn't know that. The relationship argument is a strong one, which in combination with the above observation has convinced me that we should bring Monty into the war. It kind of "repairs" the variant, which the invisible diplo malus for the human player shouldn't have broken in the first place.

(I could also have said that Sirian should serve as the tie-breaker here, but seeing his post frequency lately...well... :rolleyes: )

-Kylearan
 
Hi,

Atlas* said:
Ky- I did a 2 week castle tour - and Germany has some of my favorites.
Not only do we have some very nice ones, we also have lots of them, and I mean lots. I'm lucky to live at the Rhine, in an area which has one of the highest castle densities in the world. I have 4 castles in walking range alone, and several dozens in bicycle range. Additionally, I do an annual bicycle-and-castles tour with some friends, and during the last seven years, we have visited about 20 castles per tour (3-5 per day). I've visited way over 100 castles in various states (ruins, or reconstructed) and different countries (Germany, France, Great Britain) now, and could drown you in pictures of them. :crazyeye:

I just love castles. :D

-Kylearan
 
Kylearan said:
It is, as I didn't know that. The relationship argument is a strong one, which in combination with the above observation has convinced me that we should bring Monty into the war. It kind of "repairs" the variant, which the invisible diplo malus for the human player shouldn't have broken in the first place.
I didn't know that either. Wow that mechanic is... not intuitive :rolleyes:. I had imagined it as something like the AI personalities have lower "go to war" diplo thresholds and/or less tolerance for power inequities b/w civs.

T-Hawk said:
He's likely to hurt his GNP by capturing territory from Spain. But that's not a big deal, since our own economy already dominates the game. But Monty capturing territory will help his production, and in the end I think will help him get the spaceship done sooner. It'll also give him more production in the meantime, to keep his military on top. And it will get him to Friendly status with us, which is an aspect I'd rather not ignore.
I like the going to "friendly" status, however I rarely see AIs profit from war, their research grinds to halt due to unit upkeep/maintenance. The AI also has such a problem incorporating new cities (ie. letting them starve down instead of whipping the :mad: population) that it will be time to build spaceship parts before those new cities get going. The other thing is Monty is going to pillage Izzy like crazy :(, hurting us and himself when he takes new cities.

BTW- I think we should consider starting to go deeper into the tree, prioritizing Observatories, then Factories and railroads.
 
I inherited this turn in 1474AD, and hand it to the next leader just eight turns later, in 1520AD. Rome has fallen to the might of Spain, the lands are burning everywhere, Spanish knights run rampant across the lands, and little brother Monty is quite content to run amock…just kidding.

But it made sense to quit early, for a number of reasons.
-The initial turns where a little hairy…I’m not a big warmonger; I play slowly during a war when there is a lot at stake. It’s late, I’m tired…no need to make mistakes.
-T-Hawk played 12, so my eight rounds it off nicely.
-I’ve consolidated our forces, we are ready to go on the offensive, so it makes sense to hand the transition over, too.

P.S. Can someone tell me how to remove the messages from Monty’s Gods? :)
 
Romulus sat once again in his office, poring over papers. But this time, the papers were maps rather than trade documents, and rather than pens, little coloured markers dotted the map.

“Your Romulusness,” said a praetorian at the entrance to his office. He looked up.

“We have good news. The Spanish forces have been crushed outside of Rome. Although one of your legions were amushed outside Rome by a squadron of crossbowmen, our other forces were largely successful.”

For the first time in weeks, Romulus smiled. The Spanish Horsmada had been pillaging the countryside for what felt like forever, and a small army had marched on Rome with every intent to burn it to the ground. And all the while, Monty, ever eager to go to war, was nowhere to be seen.

He had turned his clockwork mind from numbers to logistics and military strategy. Knight had been trained, or even whipped if need be, to drive the forces of the mad queen Isabella back where they belonged.

Romulus’ grin broadened. Then, he giggled. Finally, he was cackling merrily to himself. That Isabella…he would show her. He would crush her cities beneath the feet of his knights, macemen and praetorians. He would crush her. All of a sudden, Romulus felt the need to pull the wings off flies. But as his lieutenant cleared his throat, Romulus composed himself.

“We’ll need feathers,” said Romulus.

“Feathers?” The lieutenant frowned.

“Sorry, I meant catapults. Definitely catapults.”
 
Turn Report

Interturn:
Since I cannot see any other way to get Monty friendly with us, I finish T-Hawks turn with the following deal:

I also give Monty our world map for his birthday.

Scanning around, I also notice we are at our happiness limit in a few places, but we have some birthday deals with Monty to take back if necessary.

I also switch Rome to a knight, and cancel a windmill at Neapolis since I can see no reason to replace the mine at our most productive city. We can work, as far as I can tell, every major shield producing square without needing the one extra food.


I also reset builds everywhere to military. When Spain is a smoking pile of rubble, THEN we can build universities again. Cut.

I also begin shuffling some units around, notably toward Spain and away from our rear borders. Louis is friendly and will not attack; Monty is at war with Issy and should also not attack, so that border is safe.

Turn 1: 1478AD
One small Spanish stack moves in at Ravenna; a horse archer pillages a farm and another HA moves in to threaten one of our iron resources.

In response, I attack (odds aren’t quite accurate…just a rough idea):
Combat 1 Knight Kills City Raider Mace @80% odds.
Shock Praetorian Kills Combat 1 Axeman @70% odds.
Umpromoted Praetorian kills Horse Archer @70% odds.
I cover the iron with an injured Combat 1 praetorian and medic archer.


At Rome, the majority of the Spanish stack remain on the 75% tile, while a single crossbow moves to pillage a windmill.

I choose not to respond. The best odds I can get are 75% from a combat 1 knight, but that will leave the knight vulnerable on the hill. (I can’t remember if the fact that it’s roaded and in my territory will allow me movement to retreat away from the Spanish stack.)

Finally I notice unhappy faces…where did they come from? I take back our only Dye from Monty (for furs), as well as a Spice for Free. I then trade spice for fur and keep the dyes. Still some unhappy faces. :whip:

Turn 2: 1484
The Spanish Horsada continues to threaten and pillage at Ravenna. Our praetorians aren’t the best suited for horse killing, but I manage to kill two more with the loss of naught but a useless tundra farm.

The Spanish stack finally moves towards Rome. I’m confident we can keep Rome with the forces we have, and certain we will lose our camp. But I would like to save the cottage. Damn Horse Archers. I won’t attack on the hill, either. It’s your move, Issy.

The windmill is pillaged, of course.

I whip the knight at Rome and revolt to Thocracy. There are almost no buildings going up anywhere, now. But I decide against vassalage as Rome is providing so much of our commerce.

Turn 3: 1490AD
Issy’s move, and it’s a bad one. The stack moves onto the ice, including the HA which pillages the snowy road. At least the horse archer moves to pillage the camp. The crossbowman pillages the road on the hill.

I respond as follows:
Barrage 1 Catapult dies to a Combat 2 Mace @ 2%, without doing an ounce of damage!!
C1 Knight kills C2 Mace @70%
C1 Mace injured (7.4) City Raider 2 Mace.
Flanking Chariot died to CR1 mace @ 4%, but brings it down to 2.9/8 health
C1 Praetorian finishes the job @ 94%
C1 Praetorian kill the camp raider horse archer at 72%.
Both injured Preatorians move onto the ice, where the archer moves to cover them from the crossbowmen.

Also, if you are observant, you will have noticed the horse archer at Antium, which prompts a worker to flee and a knight to be whipped at Antium. Rome does not have forces to spare!

Finally, two horse archers die to praetorians at Ravenna.

Turn 4: 1496
ARGH…the crossbowman attacks and an injured praetorian defends…and dies. I wish I could pick defenders sometimes.
The newly whipped knight at Antium kills a Horse Archer, and the knight whipped at Rome gets revenge on the crossbow.

Turn 5: 1502
Spain finally shuts up. Monty has begun wreaking havoc on Issabella’s land, and I think she’s out of attackers. Regroup and Heal. Build units.

Turn 6: 1508
Not much. I’ve begun to prepare stacks to attack Spain. Still no word from Issy.

Turn 7: 1516
Nothing of interest. Oh, Vicky died. Was that interesting? I think Alex ate her.

Turn 8 (my last): 1520:

Nothing much of interest. I give Monty 70Gold for his birthday. Liberalism is due in 2. We have a couple of stacks ready to move on Spain, which are short only catapults. Sorry if we have too many knights and two few catapults, but I didn’t know how many reserves Issy had.

A few final pictures:

The most monstrously expensive map in the game in terms of distance corruption, and what does ‘lil bro do?


But don’t tell him he’s an (adorable) idiot, we don’t want this to change, now do we?


Our stacks, ready for war (while the catapults arrive, and once liberalism is in, may I suggest 100% cash for a while to upgrade some nice city raider nutcrackers, er, grenadiers?


Finally, we have a Great Scientist in Rome, ready for whatever purpose the next leader has for him.

In closing…if he was ever mad at me for forgetting his birthday, he’s clearly forgiven me, after I gave him two presents for his last birthday (eh, Atlas?)


And the save. Of course.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/35362/Romulus_AD-1520.Civ4SavedGame
 
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