RB29a - Cultural Extermination

Summary:
We got another religion, and tripled our military to three warriors.

lurker's comment:
That reminds me about a very old joke, loose translation from Russian.

Mao planning military campaign against Russia.
Mao
"First we send airplane, airplanes, and airplanes".
Helper
"Sorry, pilot is sick".
Then we will send Tank tanks and tanks.
Helper
"What, All three?"
Mao
"Then we will move in small group of 10 million people".

 
A random thought about the game. We should pike our dominate religion and start to spread it to our neighbors. Even if we don't pick a state relion right away, we want to get the point of having plenty of friends as we eat there cities.
 
Lurker's comment:

@Sullla:

And what do you think of me getting all seven religions with Isabella on Settler difficulty ? Hey, I really want to talk with you about that !

;)


A random thought about the game. We should pike our dominate religion and start to spread it to our neighbors. Even if we don't pick a state relion right away, we want to get the point of having plenty of friends as we eat there cities.

@Lee:

I don't think that's a good idea - do you really want to spread free culture to your enemies ? Friends are a nice thing to have, but in order to win by conquest you'll have to squeeze your friends culturally. This will result in high close border penaltys anyway. You can't prevent religion spreading on its own, but you can control what you do yourself - which is avoiding any cultural help for the enemies.

Just my $0.02.

Imhotep
 
OK, some quick comments. I usually try to take a peek at each save file, but you guys played too fast for me last night! :lol:

T10-found St. pete start on a obelisk

Why are we building an obelisk here? :confused: We're definitely going to want to build Stonehenge soon, if only to deny it to any of the other AI civs. In fact, it might even have been a better idea to have St. Petersburg start on Stonehenge itself right away! (Since there's stone there, which our worker will hook up eventually.) Not a huge deal, but that was not an optimal initial build choice.

I think the rest of the turn looked pretty good though. Hope it wasn't too boring. :)

[QUOTE="LKendter]We are at turn 71, and yet we lack slavery. I can tell we went with a really different opening.[/QUOTE]

Definitely! If you were expecting the typical "kill-and-attack" SG based on worker-stealing and massive early whipping, you're in the wrong place. ;)

I swap to working the lake to increase the odds of being Jewish. I remove the Hindu Monastery from the build queue, and add a warrior. I know it is only prince, but Napoleons attitude is going to get ugly fast. I don't want to play the naked city gambit to long.

I'm guessing this was at Moscow, right (?) Absolutely the right call to ditch the Hindu monastery (we won't need that for quite some time), and probably not a bad idea to add a warrior. Even there are No Barbs for this game, we'd be pushing our luck to spend too much time without a defender in our capital!

We did get Judaism, and got it to pop in St. Petersburg, yay! :dance:

I'm a bit disappointed that we did absolutely no scouting back in the east on either of the last two turnsets; THAT'S where our next settler needs to go, and we have zero knowledge of what's going on over there! I'd probably send one of the two warriors in Moscow over in that direction to get us some updated map info.

It's already 1200BC and we haven't even started Stonehenge yet; that's bad. I'm not at all sure we'll be able to get it now. In fact, I'd probably suggest swapping Moscow off of its settler build and over to Stonehenge, chopping some forests (once Bronze Working finishes in 2 turns) to make SURE that we get it. By chopping two forests and running max shields (after 2 turns of growing to size 5) we can finish the wonder in about 12 more turns. That MAY be in time to get the wonder; I don't know. But I think we have to try regardless.

Techwise, we probably want Pottery -> Agriculture, and then Writing and Priesthood after that. Our goal will be to use the Oracle to grab Code of Laws, timing Confucianism to pop in city #3! Anyway, I don't want to give TOO many instructions, but these early turns are absolutely critical. I wish I'd been able to suggest starting Stonehenge before LK's last turnset!
 
A random thought about the game. We should pike our dominate religion and start to spread it to our neighbors. Even if we don't pick a state relion right away, we want to get the point of having plenty of friends as we eat there cities.

Oh, and we don't WANT a dominant religion. We'll never swap to ANY state religion this whole game! Much better to get culture for each religion in our cities. Just let the religions spread on their own to the AIs; we definitely don't want to give them free extra culture. :)
 
I really hate to do this on my first turn, but I'm going to need a skip this week. Just too much going on in the evenings. I won't be available to play until Friday earliest. Sorry!

dathon
 
I don't mind waiting:) I can't do any computer games till monday;)
 
lurker's comment: i'm somewhat of a culture fiend when i'm not warmongering. i hope these thoughts aren't an intrusion.

Why are we building an obelisk here? :confused: We're definitely going to want to build Stonehenge soon, if only to deny it to any of the other AI civs. In fact, it might even have been a better idea to have St. Petersburg start on Stonehenge itself right away! (Since there's stone there, which our worker will hook up eventually.) Not a huge deal, but that was not an optimal initial build choice.

We did get Judaism, and got it to pop in St. Petersburg, yay! :dance:

building obelisks isn't a bad idea when you have the time. hand-built obelisks stay after calendar and keep building culture, it eventually doubles. in games where i'm aiming for cultural victory i often build obelisks in my cities and then try for stonehenge, as illogical as that sounds. could be you knew that and your comment was just about building stonehenge there rather than the obelisk.

and when you found a religion, the code for the holy city is somewhat random, but tends to favor the highest population city that doesn't already have a religion, and is *heavily* biased against the capital. so you can be 99.9999% sure that any religions you found, now that you have a 2nd city, won't have Moscow as the holy city. i've had games on easy difficulty levels where two different cities ended up double holy cities and the capital wasn't ever a holy city, it's that biased against the capital.

have fun :)
 
i've had games on easy difficulty levels where two different cities ended up double holy cities and the capital wasn't ever a holy city, it's that biased against the capital.
If I understand the holy city code, it also looks at the total culture of the city. Since the palace generates cultures, the capital will go down on the list of possible targets. I don't know if it dislikes the capital, or simply the fact the capital will have a lot of culture.
 
Cities in order of how I would do them.

1. Capital

2. Pressure on Paris

3. MORE Pressure on Paris

4. Military Crank

5. Pressure on Washingtion, D.C.

6. MORE Pressure on Washingtion, D.C.
 
If I understand the holy city code, it also looks at the total culture of the city. Since the palace generates cultures, the capital will go down on the list of possible targets. I don't know if it dislikes the capital, or simply the fact the capital will have a lot of culture.

code is a completely foreign language to me. i'm going strictly by what i've read from others who interpreted the code, and my observations. here's one interpretation of the formula, but i of course can't vouch for it:

pick a holy city

end of my sidetracking. i hope it's helpful and not misleading. if it is misleading i hope someone tells me so that i don't mislead anyone else in the future!
 
If I understand the holy city code, it also looks at the total culture of the city. Since the palace generates cultures, the capital will go down on the list of possible targets. I don't know if it dislikes the capital, or simply the fact the capital will have a lot of culture.

Culture is completely ignored - it specifically doesn't like the capital.
 
building obelisks isn't a bad idea when you have the time. hand-built obelisks stay after calendar and keep building culture, it eventually doubles. in games where i'm aiming for cultural victory i often build obelisks in my cities and then try for stonehenge, as illogical as that sounds. could be you knew that and your comment was just about building stonehenge there rather than the obelisk.

That's a good point; and ordinarily I would agree - since obelisks keep giving culture after Calendar tech, they usually aren't a waste. However, for the purposes of THIS game, things may be a bit different. In my solo Passive-Aggressive game, I didn't research Calendar until almost 1500AD! :lol: That was deliberate, of course, but I didn't NEED to research or trade for it because my cultural borders had expanded into enemy territory and grabbed Calendar resources that the AIs had been kind enough to build plantations on. (That's a minor loophole in this game - even if you don't have Calendar tech yourself, you can make use of the resources if the AI hooks them up and the tile later falls into your territory.)

The other reason is that I just think we could have built something more pressing in St. Petersburg initially - I liked the idea of starting Stonehenge IN St. Pete's right from the start; we'd be about 30 turns into building it by now, and if we sent the initial worker straight to St. Pete's after hooking up the cows at Moscow, we could connect our stone resource and further cut down on the ETA. It's not a huge deal, but I'm trying to encourage everyone not to follow default build orders automatically. You can do some crazy stuff and still come out ok! :crazyeye:

dathon78 said:
I really hate to do this on my first turn, but I'm going to need a skip this week. Just too much going on in the evenings. I won't be available to play until Friday earliest. Sorry!

No problem Dathon, I will pick up and play the save. I've got plenty of ideas about what I want to do next anyway... ;)
 
(0) 1300BC Naturally I plan to follow my own suggestions made above in this thread! That means swapping Moscow over to Stonehenge immediately, running one turn of max growth to reach size 5. ETA is 36 turns, but that will drop drastically next turn when I swap over to max shields (notice for lurkers and other team members: don't build a settler when your capital can grow to the next size in just 1 more turn! We should have let Moscow hit size 5 before starting that settler.)

St. Pete is building a worker for itself, which seems like a good decision. However, it's working the 2/0/3 lake tile instead of one of our many 1/2/0 tiles; I'd rather get the worker out sooner at the cost of commerce (we're not racing to any important techs right now) so I make the switch. ETA for worker drops from 12 turns to 10 turns. I also move one of the warriors out of Moscow to explore the east for us.

(1) 1270BC Moscow hits size 5; after reconfiguring for max shields, Stonehenge is due in 16 turns, which I plan to further drop with some forest chops. The borders of St. Pete expand as it hits 150 culture! :) Otherwise, not so much this turn.

(2) 1240BC Bronze Working -> Pottery. Well, Lee is going to like this one:



TWO coppers, one at EACH city! :D (I swear I didn't look at this map in the Worldbuilder when placing the St. Pete's location, honest!) Worker at Moscow finishes building the road it was working on and starts chopping a forest (5 turns). (Why exactly did we research The Wheel before Bronze Working? :confused: ) I don't swap to Slavery because we're in a race for Stonehenge at the moment. We should swap as soon as it finishes (or we lose the wonder), however.

(3) 1210BC Poor St. Pete: the city has ivory, copper, and stone but no food bonuses. The plan for this city will be to build NO cottages, farm everything and turn it into our production/military powerhouse. (Moscow, on the other hand, should be a commerce city - lots of cottages there.)

(6) 1120BC Forest cleared at Moscow. Bad news in the east, as the Americans have already expanded to the point where they've largely cut us off. Still need more scouting - hopefully we can find a decent spot over there to start putting pressure on them.

(7) 1090BC The good news is that Napoleon seems to have expanded west, instead of towards us. There may well be a decent city spot over in the west, as opposed to the east.

(10) 1000BC St. Pete's finishes a worker; this city desperately needs a granary, but Pottery is still 3 turns away. I have it start on a barracks for now, with the intention of switching when the tech comes in. We also need to irrigate some of the plains tiles there to let the city grow, but that will require Agriculture, which we also don't have yet (should be the next tech researched!)

Stonehenge is due in 5 more turns at Moscow, but will actually complete in 3 more as a result of another forest chop. Our worker should probably start building some cottages there next, as our finances are going to drop badly if we don't start getting some of them going. (St. Pete's won't get any cottages either, so it won't be helping matters.)

Here are the spots I'm considering for the next city (we can and probably should whip a settler from Moscow soon, once it gets down to a 2-pop whip):



This looks like a poor city location, and it is. But for this game, the actual land quality is often less important than the positioning of cities. The potential red dot would still have 2 floodplains to work with, redeem one desert tile by being founded on it, secure us incense (and very possibly horses, wines, and spices too). And the most compelling reason of all: it would only be 3 tiles away from that second American city (blue dot), with a decent chance of flipping it! There's also an American archer/settler pair moving around this area (blue arrow); if they found a city on our borders, we should DEFINITELY grab this location, to ensure that their city will flip to us.

Now here's another possible spot to head next:



This spot is the min 3-tile distance away from TWO French cities! :mischief: It also has better land overall (although still some desert tiles), grabbing corn and (another) copper for us. Note that the city CANNOT go one tile north (where it would grab the gold as well) because then it would be 4 tiles away from the French cities, and that would defeat the point. Regardless of where we plant our city, east or west, the hope is that we may luck out into a culture flip.

The one reason why I'm promoting the east location (red dot) over the west location (green dot) is because I'm afraid that the whole east will be closed off to us if we don't get a move on over there. With so much space in the west, I think we'll be able to squeeze a lot of cities over there for some time yet to come. (In other words, red THEN green!) But I'm curious to hear what everyone else thinks on the matter. :)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/12069/RB29a-BC-1000.zip

darkwatcher said:
I don't mind waiting I can't do any computer games till monday

Are you going to be out until Monday? Please let us know your availability, because I don't want this game to sit on hold for 5 days. :)
 
Are you going to be out until Monday? Please let us know your availability, because I don't want this game to sit on hold for 5 days. :)

Hopefully you get a quick answer. I can easily play tonight or Thursday, but as this weekend is rough (weekends are often bad for me).
 
I can easily play tonight or Thursday, but as this weekend is rough (weekends are often bad for me).

Can I swap with you as I still would like to play and I actually can play late sunday:)
 
Got it, and playing tonight.
 
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/1898/RB29A_-_Cultural_Extermination_BC-0850.Civ4SavedGame


1000 BC
Normally a worker per city seems good this early in the game. However, with the distance between our first two cities and the planned third city I would like 2 workers per city. We are going to have to lay down an obscene amount of roads to connect these cities.


970 BC
America has a death wish:



(IT) Pottery completes, and I start on priesthood for the Oracle.
We build our first wonder - Stonehenge.


925 BC
We finally revolt to slavery.


895 BC
We whip a settler, and a worker is queued up. We really need a lot of them with this setup.


865 BC
(IT) I start on writing, so that we can grab Confucianism with the Oracle.



=======================

Summary:

With how much of a mess the map is, I decided on red dot next.

As soon as worker #3 finishes, I would suggest the Oracle. Our first forest chop toward it is already started.
 
If the team agrees, I can play next on Friday, and darkwatcher can then play on Sunday.

dathon
 
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