RBC12D - Fall of Rome - Vandals (Demigod)

[Justus II]

Regarding Gobi's turn, I have a comment and a question. The Fur-Wine deal makes sense, but you mentioned 15g involved (from us or from them, not exactly clear). I would have preferred a straight lux deal, as it is safer for our reputation if it is strictly per-turn goods on both sides. I'm not sure, but does our trade route passes through anyone else (Visigoth, etc). If so, it could easily be broken if they go to war, and there goes our rep. May not be as critical this game, as I don't see us buying much tech on GPT, but it could be. For that matter, we need to be careful about all per-turn deals with the Romes, as at some point we will start (or join) the dogpile, and the less encumbered we are by deals, the more flexibility we will have in timing. Probably OK for now, as I don't think we want to start the war before SoG, but a lot can happen in 20 turns.

Second point is more of a question, I'm not sure if we can get a good feel on the price for an alliance when we are not yet at war ourselves. I have had occasions where I have tried to buy an alliance, and there was no way they would join, but after I declared myself, and asked them to join, it was quite negotiable. Anyone clarify?

I also had a question on tree chopping, but it was answered

Also, good call on getting Barb Leadership, no sense spending research dollars when it is already out. Has anyone else started SoG since the Huns?

Regarding Akots questions: I would agree that Sacking is not as much a priority, in fact we may want to drop research to minimum, and start using cash for upgrades. We have few cities (any?) that can comfortably crank out 70-shield units, I would prefer lots of Pillagers/Marauders that can be upgraded when the time comes. By the time we attack, one of our neighbors will surely have Sacking, and we can wait to buy it cheap. I would keep minimum research, as that keeps what we have invested so far available as a discount toward eventually buying it, rather than dropping it completely. (The minimal research doesn't help much, but if we have already invested 7 turns of max beakers, that is a sizeable chunk).

As for what to do with the cash, I already mentioned upgrades, but Akots is right about some of the techs. I know Maps can give us a big payoff, IF the other barbs have some cash available. If not, we may have trouble cashing in. 19gpt seems like a lot of money unless we KNOW the other tribes have cash or techs on hand to get our money back. Another option is to collect all the barb maps, then sell our consolidated map to the Romes, hopefully getting a decent discount on another tech that way.

Fortification would be another useful tech, and is required for the next age. We do want to get to the next age, as I think Military Tradition and Heavy Cav could be useful, but not at the expense of upgrading what we have.

As for the other requests, our people will just have to rough it!! I don't see much payoff for Libraries, as I don't think we will be doing much more research ourselves. We may need a few temples in the larger cities, but they can wait for now, our focus has to be on military, and when the time comes, some migrants to resettle the vacant obelisks.

Looking over your questions, I see the point about Syracuse, by all means max out the shield production, if that means more lux tax or delaying some of the tech, do so. I think the SoG is the Decisive Point at this stage of the game, the sooner we get it, the sooner our power will build. Armies will be critical, especially the extra move for our slow units, and a 4th unit in an army is very powerful. Not to mention the free Warlords. So yes, merge workers, do whatever you have to to speed it up. With our pre-build, I think we still have a good shot of getting it, but everything we can do to boost our chances is worth it.

Expanding south is fine, and roads through the mountains will definitely help, so I'm all in favor of that. With Migrants being so cheap, we should settle as aggressively as our defenses will allow.

Which reminds me, Gobi mentioned something about Spears as cheap MPs, probably a good idea to crank some out in smaller cities to free up raiders/marauders for upgrade and movement to the front. Keep a few offensive units back as zone defense/reaction force in case one of our neighbors gets confused as to who the real enemy is!!

Wow, that was longer than I intended, I better sit down so the rest of the council can speak. While I'm at it, though I do want to post the updated Council Roster (we should post it after each player, just to keep everyone on track).

Justus II
RubberJello
Gobi Bear - Just Played
Akots - Up (and got it)
Doc Tsiolkovski - On Deck (if we get a confirmation)

 

[Rubberjello]

akots!

Reduce research on Sacking and start saving money. Maps are a little bit of a gamble because our neighbors are so poor, but it might be worth it. Close call.
Libraries? Bah! Are we turning into sissified Romans here or what?
A few temples would be good to have, of course.
Expansion south is also iffy, as we have to be able to defend those cities. Are they going to be productive enough to make it worth it?

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Checking in!

Maps...dunno. I played a few hours with another Civ yesterday, and from my limited Emperor experience, we won't get much from it; the other Barbs are permanently poor, and the big 3 never give anything but small change, especially no Techs. Of course it could be useful to know the wm, and MM itself can be traded, but don't expect too much. Doesn't seem to be really better than most other required techs.

 

[Gobi Bear]

Gobi Bear clan of the great Vandal nation weighing in here:

1. Temples are for wimps. OK, maybe one or two to worship the great Vandalizing gods, but no more.

2. Libraries are for even bigger wimps.

3. We concur with the reduced research pace, but don't underestimate the benefits of attacking with all Warlords instead of Pillagers. The difference between enslaving to create a Marauder (versus to create an Enslaved Worker) is huge.

4. I like the idea of roads south toward Rome. Maybe a city or two if they have Barracks, Walls and is built in the Hills for defense.

5. We have more Furs to trade, but I agree, it is getting a bit late to set up any more 20-turn deals with those evil Romans. Although using the luxury slider goes against our natural inclinations, using that instead of the Roman wines might be the way to go. Have we seen any other luxuries on the map that we can conquer?

 

[Arathorn]

I have had occasions where I have tried to buy an alliance, and there was no way they would join, but after I declared myself, and asked them to join, it was quite negotiable. Anyone clarify?

An AI civilization will never sign an alliance with you against someone that neither of you is at war with. NEVER. So, if you're at peace with the Romes and the Celts (for example) are at peace with the Romes, NO OFFER of an alliance vs. Rome will ever be accepted. It's like offering gpt when your rep is trashed or you have no income. It turns the deal into a "NEVER WILL ACCEPT".

Once you're at war with someone, then you can make alliances for whatever they cost. That cost, to my knowledge, has never been really nailed down. Sometimes it's cheap and sometimes not.

HTH,
Arathorn

 

[Justus II]

Arathorn, thanks for stopping in! That explains a lot. I have wondered why sometimes I can get a price when I haven't declared yet, but it's because they were already at war. So we won't be able to get any "estimates" on alliances until we declare or they do.

@Gobi - I agree with attacking with the Warlords, but I think we will upgrade more of them than we build, so we can wait until someone else researchs it, buy it cheap/trade, then upgrade in one of those hill cities with barracks on the way to Rome!
(That's a second for that motion, I think it passes the council!)

 

[Kabuki]

The cost to upgrade is 60 (from pillagers), 120 from raiders... You will be building much more than you will be upgrading... Unless your economy is pulling some nifty tricks.

 

[akots]

The SAVE

Oh, the Honorable Members of the War Council! Your tiny servant humbly speaks in his defense. Please do not behead me immediately for during your leave for a long time our Chiefdom was in ruins abandoned by the looks and postures of your Great Lordships. I understand that you had a great urge to celebrate and to hunt and therefore I was the only one left to rule our people. Not that they need much ruling. But oft times they came to me and asked for guidance. Another problem is that as a result of your great effort our tribe now prospers. People are eating good food and have more furs and clothes, and our skilled smiths are making many more swords. I have served under Hilderich, and under Hunneric, and under Gelimer and have not noticed such great increase in prosperity of our tribe. This is the age of treachery and great joy and great grief. This is the age of mighty swordsmen and great wars. I should have not done what I have done but it was for the good of our people that I have done. Spare my life and I shall serve you well in the future.

[1] 390AD. One of our wise men walked all the way to the edge of the world where mighty Atilla rules by an iron fist. The travel required some expenses but I decided it is very important and gave him some gold coins from our treasury to dress and wash himself before he goes. He saw many wonders in Atilla’s capital, the Great Bulgar. He saw a Barracks, a Temple, a Library, and lots and lots of spearmen, 5 battalions of strong and fierce warriors. The city is not very big in size but they somehow manage to mount the horses and ride them to the battle. This makes them a dangerous foe, my Lordships. Our wise men decided to stay and observe the court of glorious Atilla who is very peaceful at the moment. He also wanted to travel and inspect the city of Veliki Pereslav but no one could tell him which road to take and where this city is. One of our raiders spotted a suspicious movement of Sassanid troops in between the land occupied by Ostrogoths and Hunns. We also had to make more people work on our great barbarian wonder, SoG. I don’t know what it is and what its great magic powers are but when you left, I was told that this great project has to be continued at all costs. We even used a help of a Sassanid engineer who accidentally was enslaved because the house that he was building for some rich merchant collapsed and the owner died. Hope this does not imply he is a bad engineer. Probably, it was a fault of contractors who stole the clay. But contractors never go to jail, as your Lordships know very well. So, now Syracuse has almost 700 people. It is a big village indeed. Other routine troop movement in this period of time, I dare not to mention to your Lordships. They mostly pertain to strengthening our military patrols on the border with Anglo-Sax and changing production in New Tingis to migrant from spearman and in Hadrumetum from barracks to a worker, and in New Carthage from spearmen to barracks. I also decreased allowance to our so-called wise men who were researching some trick about how to make our enemies fight at our side after they are defeated. Hah, we don’t need that. Good enemy is dead enemy or slave. This so-called magic of warlords is a dangerous thing to play with and our people are not ready for this knowledge.

[2] 392AD. Infamous SoG will be ready in 9 turns. We also hired an Anglo-Sax slave to carry the boulders for this magnificent project. Production in Ammaedara changed to horseman otherwise we lose forest shields. WM to West Rome for TM+2g, to east Rome for TM+2g, to Sassanids for 6g. Hunns discovered Code of Laws. Remember, I told you that Atilla is a very dangerous foe! We had so many furs stockpiled in our warehouses that they were starting to rot. We decided to ship that crap to Sassanids. They have no understanding of what is good furs. Also, I don’t know what do they need them for. Last time when our map boy traveled there, it was so hot that he almost died. Well, we don’t care. And everything around looks peaceful. We are not ready for war and will not be ready for another 20 turns or probably much longer. They offered Map Making in exchange for some additional 40 gold and 4 gold per turn to be shipped with the furs. I thought these terms were acceptable and agreed. We then traded maps with Celts (+1g), Franks (+7g), Visigoths (+12g), Anglo-Sax (+5g), and Ostrogoths (+8g) making total 34g. We then exchanged our maps and Map Making with Atilla for his maps and CoL. As the result of this knowledge, we can build houses of court where those warriors which steal common property are beheaded in public. This was said to greatly reduce stealing among our fellow Vandals. And these building are not as large as temples though require some older men to be hired to clean them and make them fire-proof. At present, about 25% of our income is stolen which is probably OK, but as we expand, these barbaric improvements might be very handy. We traded our maps to Sassanids for 20g and to Eastern Rome for 28g. We offered them to Western Rome also but they said that they are short in cash at present and asked to come later.

[3] 394AD. Lilybaeum pillager->pillager, Cartennae pillager ->Temple. Zucchabar switched to temple, it is too close to Anglo-Sax. We observe movement of great army of Sassanids. They have mounted troops called Immortals. Their attack is almost as strong as our current recruits are but they move at great rate where as our soldiers walk more slowly. SoG will be ready in 8 turns. The infamous Veliki Preslav in a size 4 town with production of maximum 4 shields per turn. Ha-ha! We sent our wise man to spy on Ostrogoths for 43g. Their capital Reidhgotaland is a small village with barracks. They have many warriors (at least 1 battalion) and 6 battalion of spearmen. They are stupid if they think that we can defeat Rome with spearmen. But it is their ways. They also have no iron and therefore no swords, only clubs for raiders. Pathetic. However, they have horses. We also send our wise man to live in the capital of Franks, Disparagum. This town is very big with at least 300 people in it. However, many of them are unhappy. They have barracks, granary, and temple there and are building library. What good do all these spectacular buildings make if they have no plunder to share! They also have 6 battalion of spearmen. Pathetic also. They have iron but cannot make normal long swords yet. And no signs of horses as well. We also sent another wise man to spy on celts. The guy was very old. He had to travel by boat, got sea-sick on his voyage and died. We then sent another younger man and he safely arrived in Dalraida. The village is in a hill country with no forest around. How weird it is! They have granary and library and also 6 battalions of spearmen. But they are good warriors and can make londswords! At present, they are recruiting some local folks and trying to teach them not to cut themselves with these big weaponries. We also tried to send somebody live in Sassanid capital great city of Ctesiphon. But life there is extremely expensive and voyage will take a long time. Well, to put it short, there was not enough gold in our treasury at the moment.

[4] 396AD. Just moving and re-shuffling troops and workers. We have to pay 60g for upgrade of battalion of raiders to pillagers.

[5] 398AD. Rusicade worker->spearman, New Carthage barracks -> raider. Celts are building SoG in Cruachu. It is a great city, but probably we’ll beat them to it. Anglo-Sax spearman/migrant duet entered the sacred land of our tribe. Where are they going? Panormus switched to Courthouse. It has too little shields after all the forest around it was chopped at your orders, My Lordships. Well, let it bring some money at least by trade. Where this Sassanid horde is going? It is a complete mystery. These Persian people are sneaky and we should not trust them.

[6] 400AD. HippoRegius pillager -> Temple. Cagliari barracks ->pillager. Aleria veteran raider upgraded to pillager for 60g. Made 23g trading maps. Last two turns made about 35g from maps. Veliki Preslav grows in size. May be 6 shields now. Our SoG will be ready in 5 turns. Theirs costs 140 shields, so should be OK. It is really expensive to send somebody there to check it out.

[7] 402AD. Saldae pillager->pillager, Aleria spearman-> Courthouse (good city with lots of shields mostly wasted; can change later to pillager or spearman). Where is the Sassanid horde going? It is a mystery indeed. 15g for maps.

[8] 404AD. Rome tries to extort territory map and 26g. We are not ready yet. Gave him what he wants. They’ll die on the tips of our swords anyhow. Zucchabar Temple ->Courthouse (can change to pillager later). Sabratha worker ->spearman. New Tingis migrant->spearman. Sabratha switched from spearman to temple. There is lots of forest chopped without discretion which is not good. Mining grassland takes long time. If two mined grassland tiles are worked, there is support for 2 citizens and 2 shields are made. It gives a 1-time gain of 20 shields but required 14 turns to chop forests and 12 truns to mine. Plus 4 turns to build 2 roads for total 30 turns of work. Irrigating one grassland gives 3 food, no shields together with one forest gives same two shields. Need 7 turns to chop forest, 4 turns to irrigate, 2 turns for a road through grass and 4 turns for a road through forest for total 17 turns which also speeds up the growth due to irrigation and give minus 10 shields one-time bonus. BTW, we need to send a wise man to Sassanids. It costs us 171g but this should be done for the sake of state security. Ctesiphon is the great city. More than 110 thousand people live there. They have barracks, granary, temple, market, library, courthouse and aqueduct there. They produce 15 shields per turn, have 3 iron sources, 2 horse farms, 1 gold mine, 8 battalions of spearmen, wines, furs, dyes, spices, and silks, are researching at about 40% rate and building great wonder called Justinian’s Leadership. What it can be, our wise man has no idea. Somebody told them of its magical powers to have a barrack in each city. Thre are many happy people and many unhappy people in Ctesiphon. They like our furs, I told you it was OK.

[9] 406AD. Everything is quiet. Some raiders move around our southern border. Made 14g on map brokering.

[10] 408AD. Four Sassanid horsemen and one immortal appear near our eastern border. What to do? Where are they going? We have 4 raiders and 2 pillagers there in three towns. We can upgrade one more this turn and pop-rush several this turn or next turn. Next turn may be too late already. SoG ready next turn. We can build walls in Rusicade this turn losing some shields but walls can increase chances of getting plague. If they attack we will certainly lose Panormus. But Rusicade can survive. New Hippo Regius will build spearman this turn and may also survive. Rushed Courthouse in Panormus with 2 citizens. It was overpopulated anyhow. Upgraded raider to pillager in Hippo Regius for 60g. Sassanids are cautious, not annoyed. We have deal with furs and 4gpt payment for Map Making. We can buy Currency for 40g+29gpt and if they declare war, buy alliances from all barbarians against them with this. But this is not for my humble brain to make this decision. I do hereby confer all the paperwork of the state to your Lordships and beg a retirement from my duties. I have put too much energy in making the glorious project of SoG and have succeeded. May my successor enjoy this tedious task of managing our military and economy. And he should take care of this Sassanids contingent of mounted warriors at our east border. After SoG in Syracuse is finished, the population there has to be decreased to make some workers. Then, luxuries can be lowered. There is little doubt that Sassanids will declare next turn after they move they force into our territory. Their target is Panormus. It would be certainly possible to ally Hunns or Ostrogoths on our side. The latter have no iron. So, this would be pure slaughter. Hunns are large and may survive. It is possible to make a gpt deal with Sassanids for some tech (Construction) and use this tech then to ally Hunns and Ostrogoths against Sassanids.

 

[akots]

I've got an evil plan. It might work for the beginning.
1. Byu some tech (Construction) from Sassanids next turn before they declare for pure gpt.
2. Change production in Panormus from Courthouse to pillager this turn. Also this turn move all assault force that is around (spear (next turn, he will defend) and raider from New Hippo, two raiders and pillager from Rusicade and other possible troops, may be even 2 raiders from Syracuse. Increase luxury rate to keep Syracuse in order.
3. Next turn when they move in, ask to leave. They will declare. Decrease luxury and buy alliance from Hunns and Ostrogoths. Strike with pillager to get the immortals, then raider-raider-pillager and raider again or in some other sequence. It is across the river but horsemen would be slaughtered or retreat. This should clear the field slightly. Try to take out the immortals.
4.I already started moving some troops to Panormus. Continue moving. Sassanids have more horsemen and archers, 15 or so on the way, so do not relax. It might be possible to ally all our neighbors (Anglo-Sax, Franks, and Visigoths) to prevent Sassanids from dogpiling on us. May be hook another iron and give it to Ostrogoth.
5.Trade another luxury to Western Rome to increase the price of alliance against us with her for Sassanids. Celts don't matter.
6. Pop-rush some spearmen wherever possible and move raiders/pillagers to defend/counterattack.
The plan is evil but seems ok for the RBC rules. Well, I'm not an expert.

 

[Justus II]

Good turns, I have a few comments and a couple suggestions.
BTW, the save link is broken, probably just a typo, as I found it on the server. Corrected link: The Save

First, I was nervous when I read this:

They offered Map Making in exchange for some additional 40 gold and 4 gold per turn to be shipped with the furs.

GPT for tech from the Sassinids didn't bother me, as I didn't think we would ever be at war with them (little did I know) but the furs means we would have to maintain an open trade route, which I assume must pass through East Rome? We may have far less control of that, even if Sassinids and Rome go to war, our rep takes the hit. In this case, it may be beneficial to us if they do declare, as I think then we would be off the hook, otherwise our reputation is on a very thin thread. For that matter, it may pass through the Visigoths, or someone's harbor, or whatever. I would have to look at the save to see who we can trade with, then narrow down the route. Regardless, I would be very cautious of long-distance, convoluted (i.e. Byzantine ) trade routes.

Second, despite that, I do think the Map-Making deal is paying for itself, you were right about that. As long as we are dilligent about checking every turn, we should be able to consolidate all the barb maps (and get any loose change they have) then sell the "packaged" map to the Romes for decent gold, giving us an extra upgrade every 2-3 turns. Unless....

Rome tries to extort territory map and 26g.

If they don't have the cash, they may just try and take it. Good call paying, especially with the current deals running, we can't afford to be drug into war yet. That's just the cost of our "insurance".

While I agree Embassies are useful, and will be needed eventually, 171g sounds like a lot, if we are that strapped for cash, I probably would have done some more upgrades first, but it was your call. Too bad our ambassador can't ask them why their horses are up here??

Not sure what else they would be doing, I suppose they could be trying to go around/through to someone else, but that's probably wishful thinking, unless they are already at war with someone else (Next player please check that). Otherwise, I wouldn't be quite so pessimistic, from the screen shot they can't hit Panormus next turn, so we have time to react and shuffle defenders. At least it is 4 horse and only one Immortal (Heavy Cav), and not all immortals. If we can get defenders in position, we can weather their first attack, and then our Pillagers should be able to take them out. This far from home, hopefully they don't have a lot of backup. Buying a tech for gpt is probably good insurance, if it doesn't persuade them to avoid us, we at least get something out of it. Just make SURE they declare on us, we don't want to take a rep hit by trying for a first strike.

I probably would not buy in allies, though, as that commits us (and our allies) to 20 turns against the Sassinids, who are not the real enemy. In fact, we will want to be buying them in against E. Rome at some point, at least to absorb some Legions, so get some sword practice on their horses, then hope for a quick peace. That's my opinion, anyway, I'd like to hear some other opinions from the Council! I would especially like some clarification on the consequences to our rep if they declare on us, unprovoked, AFAIK that is the ONLY situation where you don't take the rep hit for a broken deal, but I could be wrong.

After all that, good solid turns, on getting us to the verge of Scourge of God, and great writeup, especially for a self-confessed SG novice. You will be rewarded with your very own Fur!

Roster:
Justus II - On Deck
RubberJello
Gobi Bear
Akots - Just played
Doc Tsiolkovski - Up - Save us from the Sassinids

 

[Justus II]

I just cross-posted with Akots, seeing your strategy makes sense, although I am still not sure about the alliance part. If they really have that many more forces coming, this could turn into a slugfest, which we don't want, and we certainly don't want to be the subject of a dogpile, but do we really want to be locked into 20 turns of war with them?

As for your tactics, makes great sense, we are certainly better off attacking than defending, so if we can demand they leave, and force them to declare, definitely do so. However, if they are only cautious and haven't intruded yet, we may not be able to demand yet, it may just be a "request", so they won't have to declare until their turn. And I don't see anything that would break RBCiv rules, the only thing to watch for is not deliberately emptying an interior city as bait, that's a

 

[akots]

Originally posted by Justus II
GPT for tech from the Sassinids didn't bother me, as I didn't think we would ever be at war with them (little did I know) but the furs means we would have to maintain an open trade route, which I assume must pass through East Rome?

I certainly did not know where the road was before having maps. But it does not go through East Rome. Is goes through Ostrogoths in between them and Hunns and then south to Sassanids. But it goes through West Rome for a while. May be there is some other road. The deal looked very good and it was too hard to resist.

Originally posted by Justus II
In this case, it may be beneficial to us if they do declare, as I think then we would be off the hook, otherwise our reputation is on a very thin thread.

Oh, they will. Where else they are going then. And they started this for a while. Decision was made surprisingly very early in the game. They are very tricky and treacherous people, the Sassanids. I warned you long time ago. May be somebody else of our great rulers have insulted them.

Originally posted by Justus II
While I agree Embassies are useful, and will be needed eventually, 171g sounds like a lot, if we are that strapped for cash, I probably would have done some more upgrades first, but it was your call. Too bad our ambassador can't ask them why their horses are up here??

He honestly tried. They told him it is their imperial business. Not of our concern. And they are at peace with every other nation we know. This was one of the purposes of paying 171g.

Originally posted by Justus II
This far from home, hopefully they don't have a lot of backup. Buying a tech for gpt is probably good insurance, if it doesn't persuade them to avoid us, we at least get something out of it.

Oh, they have some backup, our scout saw them. Mostly archers with few spearmen and horsemen, total about 15 battalions.

Originally posted by Justus II
I probably would not buy in allies, though, as that commits us (and our allies) to 20 turns against the Sassinids, who are not the real enemy.

Not making allies with our friendly neighbors would be very risky. These Sassanids are rich and have some techs to offer. Temptation may be too high for them to join the war. And we cannot afford to defend on all borders.

 

[akots]

Originally posted by Justus II
... I am still not sure about the alliance part. ...

Alliance serves several purposes in this case. First, it will greatly decrease a possiblity of other barbarians declaring on us. They are out of settling space essentially, especially Anglo-Sax and Visigoths. Second, this might prevent Sassanids of moving too many troops in out territory. Third, we need some of his troops to have a leader for an army. And defensive battles against the archers should be very useful in this case. Horsemen are not so good because of retreat ability. Fourth, Sassanids are very powerful and war will do them little harm. Fifth, they can do little harm to anyone but Eastern Rome because they are just too far away.

And based on the experience playing against Xerxes (Sassanids), they will declare, 99%. Unless there is an undefended city deeper in our territory. So it is both bad from RBC rules point of view and from common sense.

Edited: An important thing about the armies. Armies should contain four units. First one or two must be warlords so that we can get maradeurs from victory. One warlord is OK in most cases but two are better. Other two units must be one pillager (veteran for hit points, or elite which was used to get the leader) and another veteran maradeur added later. Veteran is better for hit points but regular is also OK. The last maradeur is never needed unless we are really desperate, so it can be a pillager also. Never include spearmen or raiders! If the army with red hit points is attacked by heavy cavalry it may lose! Did not happen to me though once after such attack army got to one hit point. The heavy cavalry just got scared and retreated. And barracks must be built in Syracuse. Is it possible that SoG will produce regular warlords in there is no barracks? We don't need to risk that. So Syracuse has to build the barracks first, then 2 workers. The city is actually making lots of shields.

 

[Justus II]

OK, maybe I misunderstood, but you have seen follow-on forces? In that case this is a more deliberate attack. Maybe alliance does make sense, of course the Sassinids could still buy in the Romes, and maybe this is what will start our early World War? I definitely like the idea of buying a tech from them for gpt, basically getting them to pay for our alliances.

Last two points. Based on how Statue of Zeus works, we definitely need the barracks in Syracuse, before the first Warlord is done (5 turns). Second, good point about armies, I wouldn't want to tie up all our Warlords just filling armies, maybe 2 to give us good enslave chances, then two pillagers. And everything has 1 move, so no difference there.

 

[akots]

IMHO Rome is too expensive for Sassanids to buy. However, in this case we should proceed with cation. Our present advantage is having the first warlord in the world! Which means the earliest GoldenAge possible. In this case, working two mined grasslands makes sense because gives 4 shields from two tiles whereas working forest and irrigated grass gives only 3 shields during GA. We then should try to further delay sacking saving more cash instead and build as many pillagers as possible further upgrading them depending on a task at hand. For general purposes and against spearmen pillagers are great. Warlords are needed only to fight legions. Timing of GA is crucial. Though I seriously doubt we can crush Rome that early. However, I played on lower difficulty and another civilization and I am not a fan of early unprepared world wars without infrastructure to support the military. I'd like to have some more buildup. That's how Russia defeated Napoleon and Hitler, so it's in my genes and I can't fight it. On the other hand, I have won that game with huge advantage seeing very little resistance. So it might be possible to start earlier. Bad thing is that Rome will get some extra victory points for slaughtering pillagers and warlords of all barbarians with heavy cavalry. Also, just crushing both Romans is not enough to win. Some more VP are needed including points from VP locations. Hence, we need a few horsemen.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Just one question, before I trash our economy by signing a huge gpt deal with Sassanids - did the travel directly to us, or did they only follow the road to the North? There are a few Barb camps in the forrests...

And despite we'll have the first Warlord in the world, I'm no fan of an early GA.

About the Armies - IMHO we should fill them completely with Warlords. My limited experience has shown that taking out a healthy vet Legion in a city with a Warlord is about 50:50. If we need to take out a city fast (and I'm pretty sure that will happen), we need Armies that can move in - attack - attack 2x next turn, while creating Marauders. And since we're not talking about 10+ Armies, we hardly will 'waste' our Warlords for them.

 

[Rubberjello]

Just chiming in here. I mostly agree with Justus-2. Firstly:
Why the hell did the Sassys pick on us?
We are so far away from them, and are not even the point leaders of the Barb tribes. That's just plain bad luck!

Secondly: I'm also wary of binding alliances not against the true enemy. Is there anyway you think we could survive intact for 6 turns? There is a fairly decent chance we could talk peace to them before they start buying in alliances against us. Its risky either way, IMO.

Thirdly: Fill any armies (getting ahead of ourselves here, eh?) with minimum 2 Warlords, better yet 3, before putting in fillers.

Fourthly: Uhmmm...Good luck Doc. Get us out of this!!!!

 

[Charis]

Wow, nice write-up akots That's quite a cut above what I expect from walk-ons, but then again, your title is poet

If no rax, SoG will give reg warlords.

For army, you only need as many attackers as you have attacks. For slow units, anything past 2 is a waste of a warlord. For the last two you want your cheapest 'highest defense' unit. What are the defenses again... (heads to civopedia)... 2 for spear, marauder, pillager, 3 for warlord. Well that's inefficient. You will want warlords after all for the back one/two, otherwise you give up +50% defense bonus.

By contrast, in a normal game you would go with two crusaders and two muskets for an early slow 4-army.

Why you ask? Well I do see one undefended interior city on your map. Not enough I would think, but not good either. Still, two points --
i) might they actually be going for the Huns to your NE??
ii) what if you pick a 'real foe', declare war, then ally Sass against them, since you don't want to fight these guys. This would fail if either a) you couldn't afford to ally them, or b) they backstabbed you on turn 2 of the treaty anyway.

Good luck, this will be interesting to watch!
Charis

 

[Justus II]

Charis, thanks for stopping by! Having now had (a little) sleep, I have some more coherent thoughts. Re: Armies, I think we will want to go all warlords, all the time. One thing I forgot about was the attack bonus for C3C armies, which as near as I can tell is 1/6 of the total attack strength of all units (which equals 1/2 the average attack strength for a 3-unit army). So less than 3 warlords reduces our bonus. Second is the defense that Charis mentioned. Also, if we do get an unlucky streak against a Legion, I would hate to get into the red hp, and then a lesser attacker steps up, lowering our chances of survival even further. I am curious about this comment:
You only need as many attackers as you have attacks. AFAIK, an army always uses the strongest unit first, then cycles through them as a single combat progresses, but a second attack starts with the top unit again. So if the combat ends quickly, the top unit is always used, but if it drags out, all three (or 4) units could be thrown in, one at a time.

Alliances vs. someone else would be tricky. We would first have to declare ourselves, and depending on who that is, with our current trade deals, we would probably break our trade rep. (Although I think the AI will still accept gpt for alliances, as they are a per-turn deal). We would probably still need to make a big up-front tech buy from Sassinids, because it could be our last chance to make a gpt deal if we do break our route (as I fear). And we would have the tech if they do double-cross us.

So we could do the tech buy, then pick an enemy, declare, and then try to buy the alliance. So make sure we don't bankrupt ourself on tech, or we won't be able to afford the alliance. Are we ready for Rome? Or what about the Vizigoths? From what Akots said, our trade route does not pass through them, they are weaker than Rome, therefore probably cheaper to buy the Sassinids against, and gives us a chance to farm some leaders before the Real War. We will want to go through them to get to East Rome anyway, this could give us some 'forward bases'?

Good luck, this will be interesting to watch!
Thanks, we may need it!

 

[Kabuki]

Note: All techs of the 2nd tier costs about 200G or 10pt. That was on Emperor. Might be a bit higher here. You only want Fortifications and then the middle tech tree (three techs -> Trebuchets). And the most likely candidate to have all the techs you need are the Romans, so you might want to save the creative book-keeping/screw the enemy until that.