RBC12D - Fall of Rome - Vandals (Demigod)

Wow! Nice questions Your Lordships are discussing. If I may interfere?

@Doc. We are the only barbarians in the forest. It is our forest after all! And timing for GA is about right. The game is short and has to be fnished before turn 120. Otherwise risk of Rome winning with VP is too high. And we might have 10+ Armies.

@Rubberjello. It is a good luck for us and bad luck for them! There is a possibility that when our territory or world map was sold to Sassanids, this city was indeed undefended. Back then they immediately dispatched some forces to capture it. And their general somehow did not receive subsequent dispatches from the capitol. And we can survive 6 turns if it is only Sassanids. But the way this scenario works, alliances are easy to form. We can have either allies of enemies. Well, what can be better for a barbarian than a good fight to join in!

@Charis. I'm flattered. There is no way to buy Sassanids for war with Rome. This will indeed trash the economy. Also, this stupid general in charge of the advancing contingent.... I think he would be following these stupid orders still. And he is moving his force from Hunns. And be assured this city is left undefended this turn to move some forces to the eastern border. Is the defence bonus rounded up or down?

@JustusII. There is no practical point. Maximal defender that we face is legion with factor 4. Assuming cross-rive on a hill fortified, warlord attack 9 in army should take care of this with 1-2 hits maximum. In case of particularly bad pRNG, second may come to backup. Third and fourth are never needed. And attack bonus is +1 even with pillagers. Thus, third pillager gets attack 7 which should be enough in most cases. After this, army usually retreats before losing combat anyhow. A 5 attack heavy cavalry would chew and spit the army in no time whether it is defence 2 or 3 if it is really red-lined. Poor Visigoths! What do we use to distract Romans once they will be destroyed? We cannot build much more cities there ourselves and cannot afford to lose them then.

@Kabuki. The problem might be that once getting in next age, we cannot trade techs there with other barbarians. And they do not research there. Or am I wrong? And it is C3C but not Civ3 or PTW so researching is a way cheaper than byuing. And IMHO we don't need trebuchets or catapults. Our units have defensive bombard and our warlords are very powerful especially combined in armies. If it is Sid level, then may be some cats can be useful.
 
Originally posted by akots
Wow! Nice questions Your Lordships are discussing. If I may interfere?


@JustusII. There is no practical point. Maximal defender that we face is legion with factor 4. Assuming cross-rive on a hill fortified, warlord attack 9 in army should take care of this with 1-2 hits maximum. In case of particularly bad pRNG, second may come to backup. Third and fourth are never needed. And attack bonus is +1 even with pillagers. Thus, third pillager gets attack 7 which should be enough in most cases. After this, army usually retreats before losing combat anyhow. A 5 attack heavy cavalry would chew and spit the army in no time whether it is defence 2 or 3 if it is really red-lined. Poor Visigoths! What do we use to distract Romans once they will be destroyed? We cannot build much more cities there ourselves and cannot afford to lose them then.

In the example you give, a legion, cross river on a hill fortified has an effective defense of 8, so our attack 9 warlord army will lose an average of 4 hits (barely better than 50% hit chance), and trust me, I have seen the RNG deal serious blows to armies. It is easy to see it dropping to a third unit, especially if the army is not full strength to start, and we will be using them frequently, we won't always have time to heal. The fact is, with SoG we will get 4 units, and a lot will probably depend on the mix of units available at the time to fill it. It may be better to get a 2 warlord, 2 pillager army into action quick, rather than wait for another warlord to emerge from the SoG or from one of the few cities that will be big enough to build them. On the other hand, if we have 3 warlords around, it is probably worth our while to put 3 in, then a pillager for the fourth. (Of course, we have yet to get an army, so we are a little optimistic here, but better to plan ahead!).

The Visigoths were just an option to distract the Sassinids, if we thought it would turn them away. If not, we should ally with Visigoths and Anglos vs. Sassinids instead, if attacked. Get the Huns involved and that should cut off any reinforcements.
 
Originally posted by Justus II
... It may be better to get a 2 warlord, 2 pillager army into action quick, rather than wait for another warlord to emerge from the SoG or from one of the few cities that will be big enough to build them. On the other hand, if we have 3 warlords around, it is probably worth our while to put 3 in, then a pillager for the fourth. ...

Well, Your Lordship, your points are excellent here. If I may also suggest that we never try to jeopardize our glorious armies during the combat. They can heal pretty rapidly even in enemy territory. It is probably better not to push too hard with them. For example, if an army has 2 elite and 2 veteran units for total 18 hp and it gets down to 5 or even 6 hp, it should not be used to attack a fortified legionary on a hill across the river. We may have some more tailgating warlords waiting for such glorious battle or may be another army as a backup.

And I'm sure we will get a plenty of leaders. Especially if Their Lordships can submit themselves to a study of an excellent scroll written by SirPleb about leadership. I'm sure you yourself is familiar with this work but what about other Members of the Council.
 
Originally posted by akots
And it is C3C but not Civ3 or PTW so researching is a way cheaper than byuing. And IMHO we don't need trebuchets or catapults. Our units have defensive bombard and our warlords are very powerful especially combined in armies. If it is Sid level, then may be some cats can be useful.

:eek: (Techs) Uhmmm....This would be a big news flash to me. Do you have any numbers to back this up? I've never noticed a huge, dramatic change in the buy/research ratio in C3C.

:eek: :eek: No artillery? True, we *can* get by without them. but we might have incredibly bad luck in the military leader department. In that case, some artillery are a perfect match for our 1 movement units.
 
Originally posted by Rubberjello
(Techs) Uhmmm....This would be a big news flash to me. Do you have any numbers to back this up? I've never noticed a huge, dramatic change in the buy/research ratio in C3C.

No artillery? True, we *can* get by without them. but we might have incredibly bad luck in the military leader department. In that case, some artillery are a perfect match for our 1 movement units.

The change in Tech price might be not so dramatic but it is substantial. Life becomes more expensive these days. On details, better to ask Qitai or alexman. I can post some speculations but they are poorly supported by actual testing.

Bad luck with military department should not happen IMHO. We are militarisitc and have SoG. Re artillery. The choice is spearmen versus cats. The building/shield capacity is very limited indeed. And we have to keep spearmen in all inner cities for MP and at least 2-3 pillagers + spearmen in all perimeter cities. There is no way for a spearman to defend against an attacking warlord. And spearmen/horsemen to secure VP locations. Thats a lot of spearmen to build. And in some cases, it might be good to build some towns just to prevent rivals from expanding too much. These towns have to be defended also. 8 cities to lose is a lot but good defence should be a priority at least at this point. Situation might change and that is a quick summary at current time point. So, building priorities might change as well. And please note that this is not a general strategy. Overall, later on, artillery can be of great help.
 
Techs, for this scenario in particular the 2nd tier techs have a fixed cost AFAIK, and they are cheap. I picked it up from someone in one of the threads and then went and quickly experimented myself - each tech on Emperor cost exactly 10gpt or 200 to buy from Rome or the Byzantine, sure you can only sell to the Sassanids, but who cares, all you want is the trebuchet. Self research as Barbarians is very hard, the 2nd tier techs are easy to acquire with creative bookkeeping and immediate war.

And sorry Akots, I have to agree with Justus and Rubberjello that artillery is good. The bombard isn't true bombard it's a chance to destroy city improvemnets when attacking as far as I could tell. Also the synergy between infantry and artillery is significant. As is the fact that your smaller cities that do not have 10spt+ production can produce them quickly enough to make a difference. The artillery makes your attacks on Legions behind city walls feasible and reliable, rather than random and very subject to the prng.
 
Originally posted by Kabuki
... The bombard isn't true bombard it's a chance to destroy city improvemnets when attacking as far as I could tell. Also the synergy between infantry and artillery is significant. As is the fact that your smaller cities that do not have 10spt+ production can produce them quickly enough to make a difference. The artillery makes your attacks on Legions behind city walls feasible and reliable, rather than random and very subject to the prng.

I do agree in general that arty is very useful in large numbers (10+in stack). But beg to disagree on one point. Pillager and warlord (and maradeur) have defensive bombard chance (not in the army though) as well as collateral damage to cities. The problem is that at present spearmen are much more needed. BTW, we have only 1 city with 10spt+. However, cats are virtually useless against fortified legions whereas trebuchets can be of some benefit. And AI might be very reluctant to build city walls in this scenario because this increases chance of getting plague.

Re: techs. In my game I was at war with both Western and Eastern Rome and researched everything by myself. It was a clean 5-turn run for all techs at less than 50%. I then traded Christianity to Sassanids for alliance against Eastern Rome. If what you say is true, it would be useful to get to next era ASAP and buy whatever possible from either Rome for 200g/tech. Heavy cavalry rocks for backup.
 
I'll throw my vote in for artillery. There are certainly cities that may not get above 4-5spt, which can still produce cats at a decent rate, but would take forever on a pillager/warlord. They also don't require a barracks, something we would want for spears. They can really take the edge off those defenders, improving not only our leader chances, but also our enslave fights, as our Warlords will win more often, and take less hp loss, meaning that they have to spend less time healing, and can get back to enslaving!

They are invaluable not only for our assault forces, but also can be a good boost on defense if our lands come under attack. Due to MP requirements and the need to keep all cities covered, it is often tough to draw together forces when under attack, but a group of 4-6 cats can shift around to the danger zone and help take the edge off of an offensive. Yes they are slow, but so are our units, and at home we also have roads (need Fortification, though so the rivers don't slow us down).

Like most things, it is a constant decision, there are many things in the game that are useful, and even important, but we can't have everything. We could probably have similar debates about workers, infrastructure, etc. I certainly think we should identify a few cities that don't yet have barracks, and are unlikely to get above 5spt, and let them start building up a force. But that's Doc's call, he's up.

As for Trebuchets, they're far enough down the road that I'm not going to worry about it, the tech would be good to have, but probably not something I would bankrupt myself for, we don't even have any cats to upgrade yet!

As for tech prices vs. research, I have read several discussions, I think it was in the Conquests forum, about observations on the relative ratio of tech trading to research. Qitai sticks out, as he actually has it as part of his sig, but there were others who were also testing it, but I don't know if a comprehensive study was ever done. My own experience is too fragmented to say, I have been playing a lot of SGs and/or Conquests lately, not enough regular epic games to have a good feel. If fact the tech costs for this conquest are fixed at a set amount, hten buying is certainly the way to go (but I'm not even sure how they would do that, I haven't seen any options like that in the Editor).
 
Originally posted by Justus II
... There are certainly cities that may not get above 4-5spt, which can still produce cats at a decent rate, but would take forever on a pillager/warlord. ...

This is the only point I would dare to argue. With courthouses and proper mm, discretion at forest chopping and irrigation, all of our cities can be very productive. We have very few of them indeed. Vandals are not bad people, my Lord. They are just barbarians and have to be enlightened.
 
I vote for Artillery, too. Any idea how many Warlords you have to sacrifice to kill a Elite Legion in a city on a Hill?
But definitely stockpile Cats, and buy Siegecraft later.

Next: Tech costs
IMHO, I'm not sure if researching or buying the 1st Era Techs is more efficient (guess if you do have something to trade, like Sailing or Masonry, trades are better); nevertheless, the 2nd era Techs are dead cheap to buy - and unless you built some Libraries earlier for culture, self-researching is a waste.
 
When Geiseric the “As much as you have Fingers on your Hand”th finally woke up and wanted to participate in the daily Dead Meat Gobbling Contest, he was surprised to see everyone leaving in great haste, mumbling something like “They’re coming! They’re coming!” – “I told you not to sell them Grandma’s old lingerie!” He barely found out that he was the only member of the Royal family not involved in an infamous deal with some folks way down South – no wonder, considering he had won the anual Annumeric’s Championship for several years in a row. So he sat down on the mention moos-covered stone, and an idea emerged in his rather empty head: “Now wait, if you were able to sell them our licy worn furs, they maybe I can buy something from them to the same favorable conditions?"

And so he did.



Good news: We’re not only still alive, we’re in a great position right now!

Inherited:
Change Panormus to Pillager (wasting 10sp), that’s simply too risky otherwise
Rusikade to Barracks –there are no Barracks in the Eastern half of our Empire at all
New Tingis (Spear) to Barracks
Sabratha (Temple) to Courthouse
Buy Construction from Shapur for 36gpt, lower Science to 10% (Sacking in 16), make +6gpt now; hawk around our WM

Enter.
2 more Sassanid Horseman jump out of the Forrests next to Panormus!
Syracuse completes the Scrouge -> barracks
Lilybeum (Pillager) -> Pillager
Panormus (Pillager) -> barracks
New Hippo Regius (Spearman) -> Barracks

Turn 1: 410AD
Ugly. There are 5 vet and 2 reg Horseman, plus the Immortal next to Panormus
Ask them to leave, and of course:

War.jpg



I don’t dare to attack with our lone Pillager, if he looses, the city is 100% lost.
Move the Spearman from New Hippo and the Pillager from Rusicade into Panormus.
Position 2 Workers in the hope to distract some Horseman (without effect, btw).
Buy the Huns into the War (+41gp and his WM) for Construction.
Buy the Ostrogoths for Construction, get his WM and all his treasure (1gp) too. Visigoths get MM, CoL, WM and 10gp for Alliance and a Worker. Franks get CoL, Construction and 30gp for Alliance, WM and a Worker. Sell CoL for 13g and his WM to the Celts (everyone else has it now, so I’m pretty sure he’ll get it next turn anyway).
Our Scientist goes to Hadrametum.

IBT:
2 Horseman and the Keshik redline and retreat, next Horse kills the Vet Pillager (looses 2), next one kills the Reg Pillager and redlines, another Horse kills a Raider in Rusicade and redlines...even worse, 3 more Horses show up.

Cartenna (temple) -> Horseman

Turn 2: 412AD
Reinforcing Pillager kills Horse next to Rusicade and promotes to Elite.
Get a Vet Raider to Rusikade, now defended by a 2/3 Spear, 2 Vet and a Reg Raider. Whip Barracks. Whip Spear in New Hippo Regius.
New Syracuse founded on the way to Rome in the Hills, set to Temple for now.
Trade around WM as usual; Huns know Sacking.

IBT:
Horse kills our Spear.

Syracuse (Barracks) -> Spear
Rusikade (Barracks) -> Spear
Panormus (Barracks) -> Walls (may change to Spear, depending if more Sassis arrive)
Ammaedara (Horseman) -> Barracks
New Hippo Regius (Spear) -> Cat

Turn 3: 414AD
Elite Pillager kills 4/4 Horse, losing 1HP (not exposed, since there’s another Reg Horse).
Currently there’s a 3/3 and a 5/5 (? not from killing one of our units) Horseman next to Panormus, 4 Horses and the Immortal are healing. Dare to move the Elite Raider and a newly arriving Vet Pillager next to the Immortal stack.
Upgrade a Vet and a Reg Raider in Panormus, and a Reg in Syracuse. Usual map brokering.

IBT:
Endless streams of Germanic allies march Eastwards...:sigh: this is not our real enemy, folks!
Siege of Panormus: Reg Horse kills Vet Pillager without a scratch. Don’t blame the RNG, Elite Horse redlines Elite Pillager next, looses 5 HP in a row and we have a new Slave (what are we gonna do withhim? Stick his head on the Walls of Panormus, to show them what they have to expect?). ¾ Immortal takes 1 HP off Vet Pillager and retreats.

Hippo Regius (Temple) -> Pillager
Cagliari (Pillager) -> Horseman
The Byzantines are building St. Peter’s and Hagia Sophia

Turn 4: 416AD
Usual Map Brokering for small change. I dare to trade Furs to Constantin for his WM, 7gp and Fortification – we really need this, since it allows crossing rivers, and the trade route to him is safe. Here’s something I completely fail to understand – the Huns were up Polytheism and Sacking (but wouldn’t part for either of it for Furs, and the route would have been too risky anyway), but we cannot offer them Fortification – I read somewhere you cannot trade the 2nd era Techs among Barbarians, but Fortification :confused: ? Anyway, we also get some real cash for Rome’s WM from our friends – that is, about 40gp.
Vet Pillager kills ¾ Horse without exposing or losing a HP, new Slave.
Upgrade another Vet Raider.

IBT:
Reg Pillager vs Vet Horse at Panormus 1 – 4, promotes to Vet
Same Vet looses ves Reg Horse 3 – 1, Horse promotes to Vet

Syracuse (Spearman) -> Temple
Zucchabar (Courthouse) -> Pillager
Saldae (Pillager) -> Pillager
New Carthage (Raider) -> Raider

Turn 5: 418AD
Elite Pillager against ¾ Horse next to Panormus wins and .....

Stilicho.JPG



Vet Pillager attacks ¾ Horse across the River, Horse retreats, and I see the 1/4 Immortal. Attack with a Reg Horse, and kill him; our Horse promotes.
Map brokering as always. BTW, the Scourge doesn’t give any culture :D , another reason for a Temple in Syracuse. Change New Tingis to Temple instead of Barracks, since the chop there would be wasted otherwise, and culture expansion will pull in another Iron.

IBT:
Ouch, Vet Horse kills Vet Pillager unscratched. Another Immortal :eek: shows up and kills our exposed Horse.
WTH - 5 more Sassanid Horses appear.

We have the presumably first Warlord in the world!
Cartena (Horse) -> Spear

Turn 6: 420AD
Vet Pillager kills 4/5 Immortal (again, why elite?); will be lost pretty sure, but the Immortal was a too big threat.
Load Stichilo in his Army, kill one of the Horses and retreat him from Panormus – I don’t have enough units to fill the Army, and I don’t want to loose it to a malevolent RNG.
2 more Pillagers kill 2 Horses, losing only 1 HP total, one also promotes to Elite.

I let Panormus finish its Walls, there are still 5 Sassi Horses near.
We could buy Curreny for 100gp + 26gpt, tempting since no other Barbarians have it, but Ostrogoth and Huns have Polytheism (Huns would also sell us Sacking for 105gp + 15gpt).
Since we have some more Raiders to upgrade, I don’t make the deal right now.

IBT:
Exposed Pillager is killed. Pillagers in Panormus slay 2 Horses, a 3rd redlines and retreats, another promotion for us.

Panormus (Walls) -> Spearman

Turn 7: 422AD
I make the deal with Western Rome – Curreny for 100gp, 21gpt and WM. Currency to Ostrogoths for Polytheism, WM and 5g (Poly alone would have been at 100gp + 10gpt, so the deal should be worth it). That brings us in the 2nd era (Sacking isn’t required). Military Training is dead cheap, I could get it for 61gp + 6gpt, but we don’t need it at the moment, and it cannot be traded anyway. But don’t forget to obtain Military Strategy before using Warlords, we have a victorious Army and can build the MilAc during the GA; guess we will never see an Army from it, but the strength bonus alone is worth it.

Kill another Horse, even with the radar I only spot a ¾ and a ¼ left. I will let the current Pillagers complete, and start Marketplaces then. Change Ammaedara to Courthouse, won’t be of any good before.

IBT:
Pillager defends against Horse, no new Sassis arrive.
Hippo Regius (Pillager) -> Marketplace
Lilybaeum (Pillager) -> Marketplace
Panormus riots :smoke:
New Carthage (Raider) -> Raider

Turn 8: 424AD
Huns are still the only ones with Sacking. Looks like the War is getting phony.

IBT:
Rusicadae (Spear) -> Courthouse
Aleria (Courthouse) -> Market (vetoable, but it wouldn’t complete a Pillager in time).

Turn 9: 426AD
Our far away scouting Raider finally sees some Huns marching towards Persia.

IBT:
Zucchabar (Pillager) -> Market

Turn 10: 428AD

Did the Worker actions, but I will stop here – the last Sassanid Horse is in range of our lone Warlord (better load the Warlord into the to Army to prevent retreating)! We could trigger our GA right now, everything seems settled (the last city was already increasing waste), we can build some Markets, Sacking is about one GA turn away, and we could stockpile Warlords and start attacking the Romes after it. We could as well wait until our cities are bigger, and we have more infastructure, but that definitely is up to the next player.

(Small note: The Workers next to New Carthage are only mining the Iron, it should make 5spt with a mine, thus making a Vet Raider every other turn, consider never connecting it.)

Couldn’t do much for our expansion, and that war greatly helped our Allies, we had to feed them with techs since I couldn’t risk to let them join the other side, our Western cities were pretty much empty all the time. But getting a Leader, numerous Slaves and being able to trigger a GA at will was a good pay-off for us, I guess. ;)

If only I knew why they were so single-mindedly attacking Panormus – in a regular game, I would be sure there will appear some resources, but here? New Hippo Regius is the same size, and I had to to leave it undefended for most of the time; if they had threatened both cities, I would have lost one for sure.



The Save
 
Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski
I vote for Artillery, too. Any idea how many Warlords you have to sacrifice to kill a Elite Legion in a city on a Hill?
But definitely stockpile Cats, and buy Siegecraft later. ...

Doc, you are really pessimistic. This is only Demigod. Deity is slightly more difficult and Sid is a nightmare sometimes. Though I managed to win RoR on Sid as Macedon finally, however, not with RBC rules and not without reloads in some critical moments. Did not build a single cat but had some armies. We'll chew and spit these Romans in no time. East Rome is not militaristic, West Rome is. And it would be nice to try to attack these kind of troops you described only with armies. Just think of dragging with us all these cats. Our warriors will get bored and leave them somewhere on the way. And we need somebody to protect them.

Edit: cross-posted with your log. Nice turns! There were also some archers (around 7 or 10) on the way. May be they returned or got caught by Ostrogoths. But probaly they will come in several turns. And all elites have survived? It would be possible to get some more leaders with them then!

GA might be used to recruit pillagers and build courthouses in periferal cities and everything else! After it is finished... time for Rome to die!
 
Opened up the save and took a look. Nice work, Doc!

A few questions:
1) Any idea what the two Western Roman heavy cav units are doing in the hills to the east of New Syracuse?

2) What is the thought on going for Marketplaces? I've been reading several of the other Fall of Rome SGs, and most of the other teams seem to be shunning building them. Since we don't pay per unit maintenance costs, is there any downside to just continuing to crank out military units?

I think we need a war plan for the assault on Western Rome. Aquincum and Vindobona are clear, early targets, but where do we go from there? Do we try and bring everyone including the Celts in to that conflict? Or do we try to keep it more limited in scope so we can control getting the 8th city (and all the big VPs) more easily? There are 4 VP sites in Italy. Some of them may be part of our plan to bring the Romans down, but do we also need to prepare a horseman strike force to gallop ahead and seize these (or other objectives) when the Romans do fall?
 
Great turns! Great, Great, Great Leader! :D

I vote: Kill the marketplaces, start our Golden Age, and crank military. It would be nice if we were not the first to declare against the Romes so that someone else absorbs the initial unit rush, but I don't know how to avoid that without just waiting. Does anyone know if we get a rep hit if we attack Western Rome when we have an active agreement with Eastern Rome? (Locked alliance) With a regular MPP, we wouldn't get the rep hit.
I haven't looked at the save, but I sure hope Western Rome doesn't have its sights set on us!
 
Doc, great turns, way to teach those crazy Sassinids they picked the wrong barbs to mess with!! :hammer: Also good move to put Stilcho in the army, two-thirds movement empty armies are NOT good! To answer your question about the Immortals, the two Sassinid starting Immortals begin the game elite. One other comment, since this is RBCiv rules, using workers as bait is a :nono:, we need to avoid doing so deliberately. Good idea on New Carthage, I like the cheap vet Raider factory.

This is my "got it", but I won't play until tonight, so I welcome some discussion from the Council. Right now, I am leaning toward kicking off the GA immediately. We could complete Sacking in one turn easily (cheaper than buying at this point, 52 beakers vs. 90G+5gpt from the Huns!). I will probably keep research low, 2-3 turns, so we can complete a few more pillagers with the opening GA turns, then use the GA cash for upgrades. My thinking is we use the first half of the GA to build forces, then (on the next leaders watch) our alliances will be done, and we can turn on the Romes. Not much sense in waiting, I don't think we will found many (any) more cities except for the VP grabs, and we are already almost halfway to a Roman victory if we don't act (W. Rome is over 14,000 vp and haven't even started fighting yet).

Roster:
Justus II - Up now
Rubberjello - On Deck
Gobi Bear
Akots
Doc Tsiolkovski - Just Played :goodjob:
 
I 100% agree to kill the Markets if we start the GA right now and crank out Warlords. I just wanted the additional income in case we still build Raiders/ Pillagers for some more time.
@RJ: Don't worry about any active deals with Eastern Rome right now, we have 2 ongoing deals with Constantin for 15+ turns.

IMHO, I would pump out military (and Migrants!) for 20 turns, then attack.


And those 2 Heavy Cav :confused: I have no clue what they're looking for. One of them jumps around for 3 turns already, the second one joined the last turn. But since Constantin gets Furs and 21gpt from us, and more important, it's not a stack of units, I don't think they'll come after us.

Edit (Cross post):

...using workers as bait is a :nono:


:blush: Oopsie - I thought this only ment to use them to absorb attacks/ trigger MPPs...but anyway, it worked in no way, maybe they toned down the attraction of Workers in c3c.


Hm, the Sassis also had an elite Horse not caused by us.
And while I agree with turning against the Romes soon, I dared to make 2 deals with thme during my turns, thus the attack will have to wait until the last turns of the GA (but I guess it'll take some time to position troops in the S anyway, our newest city isn't connected to the road net so far).

If you plan to attack then, don't renew the Luxury deal with Eastern Rome that'll expire within the next 2 turns.
 
Well, after looking at the save, it appears the lux deal expired this turn, as it is still active, but no turns remaining. We do still have two active deals with W. Rome, one for 14 turns and one for 17. Since we have so long to wait, I will probably try to renew the lux deal, and try to buy as much of the 2nd age techs as I can on credit this turn. (Since we are only extending our commitments by 3 more turns). We will certainly have the income during our GA to pay for it, and we may not get a better chance. It also provides added insurance in case they do attack us. I think it would be good to be able to build Heavy Cav with our golden age, as we have plenty of Pillagers/Raiders that can be upgraded to Warlords.

Regarding the trade commitments and war declaration. I don't know if declaring on one half of Rome is treated as a declaration on both, or if it is like an MPP and triggers them to declare on you. If they declare, our rep should be OK. But since we will end up with deals with both halves, it won't matter. If we declare before 20 turns, we will lose our rep. However, at this point, that's not such a bad thing. Once we get Military Training and Strategy, I doubt we will need to buy more tech, and we could probably buy at least one tech for gpt when it comes time to make peace with the Sassinids. We certainly won't be buying anything on credit from the barbs, and I expect our war with Rome will last until they are destroyed. Also, from the RBCiv rules standpoint, declaring war with ongoing trades is Dastardly, but not an exploit. Whoever expected Barbarians to be honorable? I wouldn't buy a lot of stuff and declare the same turn, that is too close to an exploit. My intent would be to fulfill them, and then attack at the end of the GA, but if we decide it is in our National Security Interests to declare in 11 turns when the alliances are up, it is still an option. (I guess what I am saying is we can break the deals if we have to, but it's not something to be taken lightly).

Hope that made sense, and I am open to comments/discussion.

One other thing regarding the markets, the payback is limited. It might make sense in one or two of our largest cities, since we are going to go all cash, but otherwise units are better. After this round of tech deals and upgrades, we will have no real need for cash, and we can still make some from map trades. Also, the luxury-happiness benefit will only be temporary, because once the wars start, we will be limited to 1-2 lux anyway.
 
Please-please keep our reputation intact by all means. We need the help of other barbarian nations to fight the Rome. And we cannot afford Rome to ally them against us. Reputation is all we have besides this vast forest and some rotten furs.
 
I've had great luck in this scenario waiting for Rome to demand their "tribute" of us, and just refusing to pay that. Then the declaration is on their shoulders. I'm not sure if waiting another 20 turns will definitely cause an opportunity like that to reappear, but I think if it does, we should jump on it.
 
Originally posted by akots
Please-please keep our reputation intact by all means. We need the help of other barbarian nations to fight the Rome. And we cannot afford Rome to ally them against us. Reputation is all we have besides this vast forest and some rotten furs.

I agree, and I was afraid when I said it it would be taken wrong. I have every intention of fulfilling all our deals. Since we already have a deal with 17 turns remaining, I think now is the time to make as many deals as we can, this turn, which only locks us in 3 more turns. Then that should be the last round of deals, as I fully expect that we would be declaring at the end of the 20 turns, if they don't declare on us first. (And I agree w/Gobi, if they give us an easy out by demanding tribute, force their hand and refuse it, we could get into war early without the penalty).

The only other point I was trying to make was that if OUR hand is forced, and we decide we can't afford to wait the full 20, breaking the deals is an option, (i.e. not BANNED by the RBCiv rules), but one with consequences. The situation I am thinking of here is if the AI's start a war with Rome early (or Rome with them), and it looks like we have to move fast to get someone's eighth city. Or, when the Sassinid war is over, if we decide we have to get the AI's focused on Rome instead of someone else (i.e. US!).

So certainly I am keeping our reputation foremost in my mind, only pointing out that if forced into a critical decision, that is one more option on the table.

Also, AFAIK, alliances can still be bought for GPT even if your rep is hurt, since the alliance is a per-turn deal itself, although it can be more expensive. :confused:
 
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