RBC13A - Middle Ages - Byzantium, Sid

[Jabah]

It could be a good Idea to ally our immediat neighbours (Magyars / Bulgars? / Turks?), not to help, but to be sure they won't turn against us at the worst time AND keep the passage around Constantinople sealed to force them to go around the black sea ( eventually for a better backstabing) and not disturbing our troops moves.

Jabah

 

[T-hawk]

It took my computer (which is no slowpoke) a good five minutes to load the save. There must be insane numbers of units out there.

Good idea on getting paid for alliances, Arathorn.

Current VP status actually looks rather grim...

Turks 21040
Abbasids 17630
Rus 17535
Sweden 15405
Byzantines 15080

I'll be playing now, but it'll probably take a while...

 

[T-hawk]

Summary: It's not over yet.

Just to refresh myself on all the units available:
Cataphract: 4-3-2 / 70 (Like Charis, I'll call them cavalry / cavs)
Spy: 2-2-1 ATAR, detect invisible / 20
MDI: useless with Crusaders
Crusader: 4-3-1 / 40
Assassin: 5-1-1 stealth, invisible, detect invisible / 60
Longbow: 6-1-1 / 40
Swiss Merc: 3-5-1 / 50
Inquisitor: 4-1-1 ATAR, detect invisible / 30

Start by figuring out diplomatic status. We are currently at war with nobody, for the first time in quite a while. The Turks are at war with Abbasids, Magyars, Rus, France, England, Norway, Poland, Fatimids. Abbasids are at war with Turks, Germany, Poland, Fatimids.

The Abbasids aren't our only target - the Bulgars are also still around. They will certainly have fewer, weaker units than the Abbasids, and no assassins. We do have a fair number of offensive units in the northwest area, mostly slow units. I will gear up to attack them very quickly, possibly as soon as 3-4 turns in. An alliance against them will be a must to burn up some of their units. The MDI army will also be directed to go this way.

For alliances against the Abbasids, the AIs will only offer gpt, not lump-sum, and only the Turks have anything to pay. Before doing that, I decide to spend to investigate Septum. I've absolutely no idea whether there are 2 or 20 units in that city.

Five units, all Swiss Mercs. Most importantly, no assassins. That means that we don't have to attack this turn; we can wait a turn for the more powerful slow attackers to move up to the city.

Also investigate New Jerusalem for the same reasons. This city has three mercs, one assassin, and another assassin scheduled to complete this turn. Translation: nail it right now, with the fast cataphracts.

We sell our map to the Abbasids for 3 gold, and make our alliance deal with the Turks, getting 32 gpt to declare war on the Abbasids.

-----

The battle for New Jerusalem... is inconclusive. Several cavs retreat. We kill all three mercs, losing four cavs, but the city holds with its assassin. Well, all I can do is move the available slow attacking units up to hit the city next turn, plus the two cavs that were doing nothing up by Sinope.

For Septum, the stack of slow units moves up next to it, covered by a merc, and the stack of cavs there moves into New Sidon, from which they can attack either target city next turn.

Dromons at home bombard and sink that one Abbasid curragh.

I buy the Magyars into alliance with Religious Persecution; they also give us 4 workers in the deal.

Time to turn my attention to build orders. I hate to do this, but I veto most of the Sheriff's Offices and waste shields to build cataphracts instead. Adrianople will get precisely 4 shields/turn from the Office - for those scoring at home, that means 60 turns to pay back for the shields invested. The pennies of income won't matter either at this late date.

I also spend down the treasury rushing several units. By the time I'm done with all this, we have due to complete this turn 6 cataphracts, 3 longbows, two assassins, two spies, and two barracks.

==========

BT - Abbasids buy the Rus in against us. Rus then buy the Celts in against us.

Several Abbasid Assassins pop out - and kill all the assassins we have in the combat area. Good thing I rushed a couple spies.

Inquisition completes, raising our income by 20gpt.

1179 AD: New Jerusalem got a fresh elite merc on defense (?), but the RNG is kind and we lose only one cav in taking the city. We raze it; we can't defend it, and do not want to be fighting uphill again to recapture it.

The battle for Septum begins, and is it ever bloody. We lose four slow units and 5 cataphracts in killing the six defenders. Speaker and I both misjudged the troop allocation pretty badly. We need our ENTIRE stack at each city to take it; we can't split anything up. We also need about 50 catapults, but I don't think we're going to get that.

Up towards the Bulgars, shuffling and positioning and upgrading to get ready. Change most military production over to longbows; they're MUCH better bang for the buck than cataphracts.

In diplomacy, it's time to make sure we don't get piled on all over again.
Give Seamanship to Poland for a triple-alliance against Abbasids, Rus, Celts.
Give Wines + Dyes to France for alliances against Celts and Rus. (Against Abbasids would cost 40gpt, too much.)
Give Seamanship + 1 gpt to Fatimids for alliance against Rus. (they're already fighting Abbasids and Celts.)

VP score now:

21380 (+ 340) Turks
18615 (+ 500) Abbasids
17670 (+ 135) Rus
17295 (+2200) Byzantines
15525 (+ 120) Sweden

==========

BT: Only one Abbasid counterattack! An assassin kills one cav. A stack of four pikemen moves towards Sinope. My initial thought is that they must be hiding assassins, but that's not so...?

Bulgars ally with someone against Castile - this is great, it'll draw off their offensive units.

1182 AD: Healing and consolidating on the Abbasid front. One cataphract bumps into an assassin and goes elite.

On the Bulgar front, it's about time for action. Pitesti just dropped from size 12 to 10 - how did that happen?

Well, I need to know where their king is, to go for that city LAST. It starts in Pitesti, but may have moved to Vidin, their current capital. We investigate Pitesti - it's still there, so we're going for Vidin first. Not this turn, but next turn, we're moving.

The investigation also showed that they have only one iron source, and we can pillage that quickly.

21985 (+ 600) Turks
18780 (+ 160) Abbasids
17790 (+ 120) Rus
17295 (+ 30) Byzantines
15665 (+ 140) Sweden

==========

BT, Abbasids buy both Denmark and Norway in against us.

1185 AD: I begin to start advancing towards New Samaria. I move in a spy, which reveals a pair of assassins; we'll have to deal with them first or they'll stealth-slaughter longbows. I can move a Merc and a stack of cataphracts onto a mountain, which should be able to deal with them.

Then I realize the *spy* can actually kill one of the assassins, so it does. I rush another couple spies in the area for exactly this purpose.

On the Bulgar front, it's time. We declare war on the Bulgars, and trade Prof Armies + Wines + Dyes to the Magyars for a quad-alliance against Bulgars/Rus/Celts/Norway. This deal will END with the death of the Bulgars. We advance a SoD, including the MDI army, towards Vidin.

22490 (+ 500) Turks
18895 (+ 120) Abbasids
17890 (+ 100) Rus
17485 (+ 190) Byzantines
15770 (+ 100) Sweden

By the way, I just realized that we can win this anytime we want. Just park units right outside all our cities, give them all away to somebody, declare war and "conquer" them right back. I won't do that, though.

==========

BT, few counterattacks, but the Abbasids move a stack of EIGHTEEN assassins up to New Sidon!!

1188 AD: Argh - the only thing I have that can attack the stack is three cavs in New Sidon. They each kill an assassin and run to safety, and then the only thing I can do is abandon the city. There's also a stack of five Swiss Mercs about to reach and reinforce New Samaria, so we can't advance that way either.

Bulgar front: the MDI army knocks two defenders off of Vidin, and the rest of the SoD catches up.

22820 (+ 430) Turks
19090 (+ 200) Abbasids
18080 (+ 200) Rus
17615 (+ 130) Byzantines
15945 (+ 170) Sweden

==========

BT, beat one counterattacking Bulgar longbow. Danes buy Castile into alliance against us. Abbasids move massive stacks but don't attack anything.

1191 AD: Start slaughtering assassins. Our longbow helpfully takes out the single merc guarding them without a scratch, and there are now seventeen new assassin corpses littering these mountains. I was one attacker short of wiping out the stack.

Also kill two assassins and a pike coming towards Sinope on the northern end of the Abbasid front. Also, I notice that New Samaria dropped from size 8 to 7. Can we get it to 6 to make it much easier to attack? Our Dromons block the fish tile and bombard out an irrigated tile.

Bulgar front: Our army kills another defender in Vidin, then attacks again... and loses 8 straight HP. But then it retreats! I didn't know infantry armies could do that, but we'll take it! A longbow attacks and wins; the next loses; the next wins... and we capture the city!

All the rest of the 1-move units in that stack move down towards the other Bulgar city of Kutmi-something, size 4. The cataphracts will defend the army until it can heal, then all of them and several newly-built longbows will move towards the last Bulgar city.

And that puts us up to second place!

22995 (+ 170) Turks
19410 (+1800) Byzantines
19405 (+ 300) Abbasids
18245 (+ 160) Rus

Sweden's pretty much out of the running, so I won't list them anymore. Also, because they're behind, I don't mind getting them into more wars. I give Sweden Seamanship for a septuple alliance (!) against Celts,Castile,Abbasids,Rus,Danes,Norwegians,Bulgars. This deal will also end when the Bulgars die, leaving our options clear.

WOW - that just pulled Sweden from Furious to Gracious in one deal!!!

==========

BT, the Abbasids want peace, which we decline of course. We then lose a couple units to attacking assassins... then the AI gets smart and uses a bunch of MERCS to kill several of our offensive units!

1194 AD: Kill yet more assassins all over the place. No headway, but we're not losing any ground. A stack of Swiss Mercs is entering our territory, though. Trying to get some catapults and longbows and mercs down that way to deal with them. (Switzerland isn't even on the map! Where in the world are all these mercs coming from?! )

I've had to pull police from lots of cities towards the war front, and lux tax has to go to 20%. A Dromon bombards out a tile with wines that's also a key road link for the Abbasids.

Bulgar front: Thanks to a bunch of captured workers doing Ctrl-R, our army can reach a barracks city this turn to heal. Advancing and positioning.

23215 (+ 220) Turks
20115 (+ 700) Abbasids
19655 (+ 250) Byzantines
18395 (+ 150) Rus

==========

BT, the RUS AND TURKS MAKE PEACE! Let's hope hope hope that slows down both of their VP accumulations!

Abbasids buy Cordova against us.

I didn't mean to do it, but we pulled the AIs' puppet strings. I pulled all the defenders out of Caesarea because they were needed elsewhere, and all the Abbasid mercs just immediately began a new vector towards that city.

1197 AD: Attack Kutmi-whatever. An uber-pikeman beats three straight longbows, but we capture the city. Start marching towards last Bulgar city.

Nothing on the Abbasid front this turn.

23705 (+ 500) Turks - but that gain was mostly them getting Milling tech
20440 (+ 330) Abbasids
20140 (+ 500) Byzantines
18600 (+ 200) Rus

==========

BT, the Abbasids start bringing longbows instead of assassins as attackers. I'm okay with that, though they are worth fewer points for killing.

1200 AD: Maneuver and kill a pile of Abbasid units yet again. We're able to take out their attacking units easily enough, but there's still more Swiss Mercs than I can really deal with.

Bulgar front: move on up next to their last city.

23805 (+ 100) Turks - they've slowed down!
20765 (+ 320) Abbasids
20400 (+ 260) Byzantines
18740 (+ 140) Rus

==========

BT, beat an Abbasid longbow on defense but lose to a second, no other attacks. Rus start Magna Carta

1203 AD: We're on the verge of eliminating the Bulgars. I scour the diplomatic lines in search of any way to take advantage of a temporary alliance - ideal would be to pay gpt for a tech plus an alliance against the Bulgars, then we don't have to pay when the Bulgars get eliminated - but there isn't any. I look again, and there still isn't any opportunity.

So we go ahead and attack the last Bulgar city. One army, six longbow, and five cataphract attacks later, I have to use a Swiss Merc to deliver the final blow to their king. Nuts - now I remember you don't get the VPs from capturing the city with their last king, since the civ gets eliminated before the city changes hands.

It's really late now, and I want to let Arathorn plan out the next step, so I'm going to call it quits. The 1203 AD turn is unplayed except for finishing off the Bulgars.

24320 (+ 510) Turks
21780 (+1010) Abbasids - ouch!
20830 (+ 430) Byzantines
19920 (+1200) Rus

On my turn, we caught up from 6000 behind the Turks to only 3500 behind, but that's still a long way to go.

I think our only chance now is to declare on the Magyars (it'll break a deal, but who cares now) and keep attacking northwards. I started moving longbows towards juicy size-12 Belgorod to get that started. Expect 4-6 Swiss Merc defenders in each city; that takes about 8-10 longbows or 12-15 cataphracts to defeat.

The Abbasid front is a total stalemate. We can fend off their attacks well enough, but I haven't been able to think about making any forward progress at all. We do still pick up VPs from unit kills. Make sure to move spies around to check for assassins, although they seem to have switched to mostly longbows.

Remember that techs are worth VPs too if we can somehow - anyhow - get them. In 4 turns a large payment to the Turks runs out, and we can probably renegotiate peace to buy another tech from them to broker around.

Some peace deals, like Celts, are available - do whatever you want with that.

Arathorn, it's in your capable hands. Take however long you need to get some time to devote to the game; I wouldn't want to see this played at anything less than peak form.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/rbc13a-1203ad.zip

 

[Arathorn]

I see it and "got it", but I'm not really sure when I'm gonna get around to playing it.

I'm going out of town for the weekend to my in-laws. They have a pretty nice compute and I've played Civ3 on it before, but time with family takes precedence and I'm never sure how much time I will have to dedicate to the game.

Since this is in such a dire situation, I won't play unless I can really sit down and play it with the attention it deserves. It might well be Sunday or even Monday night before a block of time like that arrives.

If we can continue to gain 5000 VPs for every 3000 the Turks (or other leaders do), we'll achieve an approximate tie. That is, we'll hit 30000 VPs pretty much exactly the same turn that others do.

Looks like a grand end-game. I'd rather not wait, but I think I will have to. Looking forward to it, though!

Arathorn

 

[Charis]

If you're gonna do it, do it right, do it for Theo!

Tis a critical juncture, take your time, and have some nice time with the family!

Good luck too,
Charis

 

[Arathorn]

I'd have no luck at all.

Well, that's not true, obviously. I think, overall, my luck was about average, but it's really hard to continue to concentrate when you use assassin's stealth attack ability against a longbow in the open...and die...twice...in a row. Note, assassins attack at a 5 and longbows defend at a 1.

Anyway, we have nice units at pretty much every shield level (multiple of 10). My assessment:
20 shields - spy - 2/2/1 - ATAR, see invisible - nice for MP, scouting, finishing off longbows and/or assassins when necessary
30 shields - inquisitor - 4/1/1 - ATAR, see invisible - attacks like a cataphract and moves through enemy territory even better. I built LOTS of these guys. No retreat, though.
40 shields - longbow - 6/1/1 - no special - best attacker. Built lots of these, too.
50 shields - swiss mercenary - 3/5/1 - no special - best defender. Good enough attack value that I wasn't afraid to use them that way either.
60 shields - assassin - 4/1/1 - invis, see invis, stealth attack - useful for picking out the attackers in a stack and leaving the defenders alone. Most of these are now dead.
70 shields - cataphract - 4/3/2 - no special - good for armies and for the final attack to retreat.

I changed a lot of city builds. I built basically nothing other than these units and a few catapults and dromons. My rule was that every city had to have something complete during my turn. There's just not a whole lot of game left.

Tons of MM and build order changes the first turn. Then, I pretty much let things run depending on the spt of each individual city.

Early: Moved into position against the Magyars. Traded the city by the lake with the Abassids (I don't remember its name), ending with it being auto-razed. Formed a 'fract army in the east. Paid Danes for peace, so we could save our coastal cities. Hawked WM like a two-bit whore.

Middle: Attacked the Magyars. Suffered tremendous casualties but razed one of their king cities (the one size 12 guy near our borders). Moved into position elsewhere against another Magyar city. Popped another leader in the east and formed a second 'fract army. Killed a bunch of Abassid troops. Captured the abassid city where ours used to be, thinking the people were ours but it was resistance central. Hawked WM like a one-bit whore.

Late: Razed another two Magyar cities (one was a replacement for the first one we killed). Killed a bunch of Magyar units but really stalled on that front. Protected our cities on that front from their stacks o' attacking pillagers (pikes and swiss mercs and crusaders and medieval infantry). Swapped inquisitors with them a few times. Tried to reinforce but troop strength may be insufficient. Sent the two 'fract armies past Antioch (size 12, on a hill, with a king, I believe) to raze a city in the Abassid core. Used the newly-formed third 'fract army to raze that city in the south that had flipped back to the Abassids. Stole Improved Siegecraft from Germany and bartered it into a 3-fer, netting Milling and Mercantilism as well. Got us into the VP lead, very barely, around 28000. Stabilized the front enough to feel comfortable sending another stack of troops towards a frontline Abassid city.

The situation:
- We had a very very small VP lead over the Abassids and Turks. This could disappear at any moment.
- Troops moved to raze the one Abassid city but many others left unmoved.
- A bunch of workers are fortified in the capital to serve as gold replacements, since we're working most of our land. They helped in both peace with Danes and in the tech 3fer.
- We have some cash, as I broke almost even in cash from the 3fer. Your call on saving for a steal or rushing units. Each tech was worth about 300 VPs.
- Army group 1 in the west is centered around the MDI army and is in neutral territory, while it attempts to heal. It's been pretty constantly harrassed and has harrassed back. It's probably insufficient to raze a city on its own.
- Army group 2 in the west is near the Black Sea. It has longbows, a swiss merc, a few 'fracts, assassins, inquisitors, etc. It's probably also insufficient to take a city on its own, but the two groups could combine (group 1 heads east and group two heads west) to get a city in the very few turns remaining.
- Army group 3 consists of two 'fract armies and the workers and 'pult they captured. They're injured. They can move this turn (presumably east, I think) or stay and heal and move next turn. I would disband the workers, bombard with the 'pult and heal this turn and then move the armies and disband the 'pult next turn.
- Army group 4 consists of longbows, spies, 'pults, and inquisitors and is also in the east. It's been moved next to a remote Abassid city that I hope isn't too heavily defended.
- Army group 5 just razed an Abassid city. It has one fract army and assorted trash. It's not really up to a full-fledged assault on its own, as it's mainly been killing Abassids and occasionally losing troops.

Both fronts are dicey but semi-safe at this point. We occasionally trade units and often have a city look like it's in peril, but units always seem to materialize to save the city (or the AI gets distracted and goes elsewhere). USE the inquisitors and spies to see invis units. Don't be afraid to have a fluid front, especially with the Abassids. Right now we're a bit into their territory, but that just means it's probably time to retreat to the city and regroup. Attacking is better than defending, nearly always, but only attack if you can kill all the visible units in the area.

I expect 3-5 turns before the game is over. If we're really close to 30000 VPs, I would make peace with the Abassids for a rebate on a tech (they're up at least Education and Exchequer on us), to be bought with gpt. The Magyars will give three cities for peace, but I'm pretty sure cities acquired that way don't add to our VP total, so they're worthless. Razing another city will help there.

We *can* win, but it's going to be exceedingly tight.

Sorry for the poor report. I didn't really take any notes and it was LATE last night when I finished, so I didn't even do a final VP check or make pictures to illustrate my points. I can hopefully answer questions, though.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/rbc13a-1233ad.zip

Who's up? I honestly don't know.

Arathorn

 

[Jabah]

I think it is my turn again...

so 'got it'.

will have a look tonight to see what is our situation, but won't be able to play until tomorrow.

Jabah

 

[Charis]

This is a nailbiter of a finish!!

That's great news that you got us in the lead on VP, wtg!
It's not clear who's in second place, and if there are any others contenders? For example, if the Abbasids were second, we could not afford to let them shift troops and effort toward a more clueless opponent and rake in easy VP. I imagine it's still the Turks, and it's too bad we can't pay the peace demands of every country they're at war with

T-Hawk saw us through about 5-6K VP on his turn, and Arathorn another 7K. IF the kill rates stay high that means 2K should only take 3-4 turns.

If a city isn't building something that can *reach* a foe in 4-5 turns, swap to an easier unit or to wealth. If it's Turks on our heals not Abbasids, let the losses be damned - we must kill our share of units and capture cities without regard to pain before the Turks reach 30K. Now, if you can maximize kills by resting a turn or letting them come forward to you, that's fine, but the game has switched from a "maximize kill ratio" game to "maximize raw #kills in next 3 turns" game.

At one VP per 2 shields, we have ~1000 shields of units to kill, unless we can get a tech or two at 300 a pop, or a city or two (how much were you getting for a city??) Watch the VP increase of the biggest contender every turn so you can have a best guess on what turn he will go over. I think we have to go over 30K before he does. If it shows him at 29.7 and we go over 30K, then he goes over 30K on his turn, then just like a close wonder race we win, but if on our turn it shows 30K for them, we've lost.
If you end turn 3 short by <300K for example, take the peace and tech. *On that turn* you can swap the entire nation to wealth to increase our gpt and do the deal at the peace table so they'll take it.

I feel like the 3rd base coach, signalling the runner home, and my arms are flapping and waving and I'm jumpin' up and down cheering, as our intrepid runner is workin' on an inside-the-park home run!

T-hawk
Arathorn
Jabah <-- UP
Charis <-- Almost surely won't see it
Speaker

 

[Arathorn]

The Abassids and Turks are both nipping at our heels in VP. They'd get between 200 and 1000 most turns (e.g. it was very inconsistent). Turks led most of the time, Abassids rallied and passed them (on strength of Hanseatic League, I think), Turks led briefly again, and Abassids were 2nd last I checked, but they're within a few hundred VPs of each other most of the time. We can't afford to let EITHER of them make significant headway. I was very happy when France completed the Magna Carta, giving a non-player those VPs.

Thinking a bit more, I would raise lux tax to 10% (or even 20%) and send out most of our backline MPs (there for happiness reasons) to the front. It doesn't matter if we have no units left, as long as we get the VPs we need.

That's why Army Group 4 exists. If it is completely destroyed but razes a city, it was worth it.

I don't know how many VPs/city we were getting. I was too caught up in the moment to do more than save on either end of the city capture, with hopes/expectations to go back and check the results later. So the information is sitting in save files on my computer, but it doesn't do much good there, does it? [I would guess about 100*city_size, but that's just a guess.] I was just too tired to go back and check last night. Since Jabah's not playing until tomorrow, I can hopefully post that before he plays. No promises, though.

I got a bit caught up and didn't check F8 quite as often as I should have. Heck, I don't even know what the ending VP totals were.

Gonna be a photo-finish, that's for sure.

Arathorn

 

[T-hawk]

I'll third the "Wow" comments! Way to hang in there, Arathorn! Where in the world did we get five armies?? I got something like two elite units on my turn, both cataphracts. Well done.

Cities are worth 100 VP times the population size. If we can somehow capture a size-10 city - take as many unit losses as you need to do that - that's 1,000 VP, or half of what we still need.

Education is worth 350 VP. Exchequer is worth 400. Jabah, if you find us within 750 VP of winning, do ANYTHING ANYTHING ANYTHING you need to get those techs.

As Charis says, put the entire empire on Wealth to buy the techs from the Abbasids when making peace. (We must buy in the same deal as the peace treaty - due to our broken reputation, they won't take our gold/turn after we make peace.) Pay 500 gold/turn if you need to - do ANYTHING you need to put us over the top for those 30,000.

Go for it!

 

[Arathorn]

Five army *groups*. Four armies. One of MDI and two of 'fracts. The Abassids were sending a lot of 1-defense troops and I was killing a lot of them early. I got two leaders from 'fracts and one from an inquisitor. LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of units being produced and meat-grindered.

I've actually thought about ways to increase our gpt. Everything on wealth is fine, of course. Changing all our people to taxmen and giving an unsustainable amount of gold is outside the Realms Beyond spirit, IMO. What's the middle ground?

What I had decided to do on my turns, if it came to that, was to put everybody to maximum sustainable income (no starvation), assuming no wars. Distant cities could get taxmen to the point where they were self-sustaining. Cities closer to the core might need funky MM between taxmen and wealth to maximize gpt. But no city should be starving itself away from the gpt expected. That was gonna be my rule...what does everybody else think? We can probably squeeze another ~40-50 gpt from this but not the 100s from exploitation (I think).

Notes:
- Rus have the Defender of Europe tech (but Education and Exchequer, too). Not sure we could pry it away by means other than a steal. What's the VP value for that tech, T-hawk?
- The tech for Magna Carta is also widely known. It's hidden behind Education, but we *might* be able to swing that, too, in a peace renog with France, with all our gpt from city manipulation.
- There are probably 10-20 workers within a turn or so of the capital. Move them in, as they're worth ~400 gold on the open market...gold we might really need. Turks have cash, but I was saving them for last-minute 2fer/3fer as necessary.
- Beware of Inquisitors, who can reach DEEP behind the lines. Only 1 move, but "all terrain as roads" makes them scary. 4 attack is nothing to sneeze at either.

Sorry again for the inadaquecy of the report.

Arathorn

 

[T-hawk]

To find the VP numbers for a tech, look at its cost in the editor and multiply by 5. Defender of Europe is worth 200 VP. Parliament, the tech for Magna Carta, is worth 300. That means there's a total of 1250 VPs in techs just waiting out there. One or two more turns of killing units plus getting those techs will equal victory!

I routinely play all the tricks the game allows to increase available gpt. I've set cities into temporary starvation to increase current gpt. IMO, as long as you don't intentionally eat the bankruptcy penalty, it doesn't rise to the level of exploitive. I'll leave this up to Jabah.

 

[Charis]

100VP per city size?? Wow! It we're close to one and could pull together two stacks a size 10-ish city would be a big prize. I like the idea of pulling units, any units, from defending core cities to get up to a front, IF they can get there in time. If the Abbasids are contenders though, we would do better to be on the wreckless side and leave exposed units on the Magyar front rather than the Abbasid front. In fact, if they're getting a variable 200-1000 per turn, and at the end of our turn it look like they are 400 short and in range of many of our exposed units, we might take the peace right then to keep their VP total from unit slaughter at around 300 instead of 500 when their counterattack kills many of our units.

The appropriateness of wealth seems to be a bit in the eyes of the beholder. I view as extremely exploitative the 'trick' of getting a monster deal for a gpt figure that you can't in reality sustain and have no intention to, because you plan to break the deal in a dishonorable way. But we're not talking about getting something for nothing here, we're giving up long term production potential for short-term monetary game - it's just that the game only has a few turns left. In suggesting this, however, I wasn't envisioning having to literally setting our empire production to zero, but that if we were short several gpt that slider adjustments couldn't get us, that we have nothing to lose and lots to gain by setting several core cities to wealth. In a regular game the closest equivalent would be that you're in a space race, 9 parts each, and you have a strong prebuild but lack the last tech. Investigation shows your foe will launch before you get the tech. Would you do everything you legally can within your empire to come up with the cash for the tech *now*? I would - I would accept the route of wealthing it up but would decline the route of declaring war for no reason on a civ to whom we were paying 300gpt. Going zero cash and heavy deficit as a science exploit while you lose 1 rax a turn was another example that 'crossed the line' but for the same reason. It's wrong because you get something for nothing - not because 'the AI would never think of it'.

It's a photofinish coming up - given Arathorn's hesitation, if we can win without doing this, avoid it. We don't want the picture of the finish suggesting we pushed another horse. Then again... I don't want that picture to show us in second place either!

Stay legit certainly, and push it no more than you have to. Good luck Jabah!!

Charis

 

[Jabah]

Pre-turn discussion

VP scores
---------

We need just 1450pts, while Abbasids need 2745pts and Turks 3215pts...


Points are scored from
- city capture 100VP for each size
- units kills (1VP for each 1 cost?)
- technology (no idea how much)


Check on another game, no points for cities given through peace concession, but (for tech given are OK).

The basic idea is probably
- stay at war with Magyar as they are in no danger of victory and each unit we kill (defending or attacking) will give us point.
- kill as much as possible on the abbasids war then sign peace for a tech against gpt before end of 1st turn
- try a immediat steal against the abbasids the following turn. Either we get a new tech or they declare war and we strike again.

Just want to check with the team that this is OK with the rules (think so, there is the risk the Abbasids are just not happy with the spy but don't declare war).

Jabah

 

[T-hawk]

Aha! We're actually a bit closer to victory and farther from both the Abbasids and defeat than Arathorn really let on. Excellent.

Cities are 100 VP per size, yes.
Units are 1 VP per 2 shields. 25 for each Swiss Merc, for example.
Techs are 5 VP per 1 cost in the editor; here's the totals:
400 Exchequer
350 Education
300 Parliament
200 Defender of Europe

1450 VP to go. We can make that with 750 VP from Exchequer and Education, plus one city conquest or 1-2 turns of killing units.

I don't think we need to put our fate on the dice of a steal. Just buy the techs in the Abbasid peace treaty with them - use our entire economy to do so, it doesn't matter now.

BTW, Jabah, does this make up for your lack of opportunity in the Fall of Rome game?

 

[Jabah]

I had just some times for a quick look, but buying both tech for peace was not possible (for a first look).
We can have the most expensive one for all our income (around 130gpt and gold?) and the less expensive for slightly less (aroud 120gpt). I will check with all our cities on wealth and taxmen, but both tech seems quite impossible for the same deal.

For other civs, all our gold was not enough for 1 tech BTW.

Jabah

The steal is IMHO almost a win-win situation, either we get the tech for 750g or we get a new war after having a free turn without counter-attacks and our money back (the gpt). It is almost like asking them to leave after signing a big gpt deals which is not the most 'gentleman' way to play ... So is this OK by the rules and spirit (if no other options)

 

[T-hawk]

OK, now I looked at the save too. You're right, we can't buy both techs from the Abbasids. But, we can buy Exchequer from them and trade it to Denmark for Education. Use only gold/turn to buy from the Abbasids, and take their 262 treasury too, so that we have as much cash as possible to include lump-sum to trade with Denmark.

I checked, and that would take a 165/turn payment to the Abbasids, which we can do with lots of taxmen and Wealth, and then I'm almost sure that Exchequer plus 1000g can get Education from Denmark.

This should work, instead of having to steal. And remember that a steal does have a chance of losing everything - failing to get the tech, but them not declaring war.

War advice: The northernmost stack can move adjacent to the size-5 Magyar city of Kecskemet this turn and attack it next turn. 200 points from Magyar units, plus 500 from conquering that city, plus 750 from getting the two techs, will equal victory!

 

[Arathorn]

Yeah, I went in and checked VPs again, too. I'd forgotten that I'd razed a size 5 Abassid city already in 1233. That took us from under 28000 VPs to the 28550 Jabah reported. I hadn't checked Abassids and Turks in 1233, but they both had poor off-turns...Abassids gained just under 100 VPs and Turks basically none. I have no idea why....

My worry about making peace with the Abassids is that it would allow them to focus their forces northward and take even more Turkish cities and give them the win. I would do it, but not until turn 2 or 3, when we're that much closer to the win.

I was also going to recommend meeting at Szazhalombatta of the Magyars (size 5) with the two groups fighting the Magyars.

Note: Siofeh was just founded the last interturn and has no more than 2 defenders. I don't think we want to attack, but I thought I should let you know. You may be able to raze it with 'fracts and the MDI army while moving the rest towards Szaz and the fast-movers can catch up...but I'm far from certain. And it is on a hill.

I'm also not certain the northernmost stack has enough units to get one city.

BUT...I didn't realize Denmark had Education. That would allow us a 2fer, which would give us more VPs.

Looks better than I remembered. The last couple turns were good....

Arathorn

 

[Jabah]

Plan is:
- No peace with Magyars
- peace with Abbasids for a tech (Exchenger) and money at EoT.
- gain as much money as possible
- try to get another tech (Education) against tech (and money?) from Denmark

Since I want peace at EoT with Abbasids, try to do as much damage as possible even if going into stupid (undefendable) position, but no suicide attack since we don't want to give them point.

- the 5/13 Cataphract Army kills a longbow in the open (no damage) -> 28570pts (+20)
- the 8/15 Cataphract Army goes East, finds a Swiss Merc in the open, losses 6hp but win -> 25595pts (+25)
--> no more possible action on this front.

Magyar front
- an inquisitor gets to the only longbow in the mountains next Naples (no damage) -> 28615pts (+25)
- a longbow out of Ruse get the spear NW (no damage) -> 28625pts (+10)
- a 3/4 longbow from the stack N of Vidin attack the pike, loses 2hp but then wins -> 28645pts (+20)
Dromon get back some troops from Italy to Naples.



Diplomacy
Objectif get as much money as possible (even if it means Chistmas in advance for some AIs...)

Celt : peace for WM+4g
Cordova : peace for WM+1g
England : peace+milling for WM+247g
Sweden : Mercantilism for 282g (+WM)
Poland : nothing to gain
Norway : WM for 1g(+WM)
Turks : WM+6workers for 145g (+WM)
(We have a 1t left for an alliance vs Abbasids receiving 32gpt, too bad)
Denmark : nothing yet
France : WM for 1g(+WM) they still have 2250g & 2techs...
sell as well Silk for 17gpt (max they can)
Rus : WM for 2g (+WM) they still have 1544g & 3 techs...
Germany : renegociate peace for a worker... nothing else to do.
Rus : worker for 24g
Fatimid : Milling for 7g+Ivory(+WM)
Turk : Iron for 269g (not gpt as 1gpt is NO)

Abbasids : Peace+128gpt for Exchequer+262g(+WM) --> 29045pts (+400)
Denmark : Exchequer+WM+567g for Education --> 29395 (+350)
Denmark : Iron for 380g (our money back)

We now are at 1787g (-24gpt) without changing any build order

Tech situation:
Parliament : France, Turk, Rus, Abbasids
Def of Europe : Rus

We have enough money to try a safe steal from any of those 4 (but next turn maybe).

End of diplomacy.


Back to troops

- inquisitor attacks and kills a spear on Mountain (1 damage) -> 29405pts (+20)
- cataphract attacks and kills a spear in the open N of Siofok -> 29415pts (+10)
- 10/14 MDI Army attacks pike in Siofolk, loses 8hp but manages to win (spear showing) -> 29435pts (+20)

Western Groups goes E after Siofok (the size 6 city is slightly too far away to win in 2t and too close to the capital).
Middle Group goes N (but is too far away to do anything but hopes someone will come)

Add worker/slave to cities to reduce maintenance or change towns into cities.
Set lux to 10%
Change production to something finishing within 2t (or spy or wealth)

We are at 1943g (-10gpt)

Next turn....

IT
Lose a spy, a inquisitor and a cataphract to Magyars strikes, another Cataphract retreats
Abbasids are asking our troops to move, perfect we do that...
Ceasarea revolts ...


VP situation
1. Byzance 29435
2. Abbasids 27430 (+175)
3. Turks 26815 (+30)
...

Action...

In the Far West...
- an assassin (back from Italy) attacks from Naples a longbow avenging the inquisitor -> 29455pts (+20)
- a longbow defeats the spear defending Siofok and autorazes the city -> 29565pts (+110)
- a longbow kills a swiss merc in wood -> 29590pts (+25)
- an inquisitor tries to finish a wounded pike on hills by dies.
- an assassin finishes a MDI -> 29610pts (+20)
- a longbow finishes a spear -> 29620pts (+10)
- a doomed 1/4 longbow kills a vet inquisitor -> 29635pts (+15)
- the 2/14 MDI army kills a reg inquisitor but goes 1/14 -> 29650pts (+15)

North of Veliki (Central), since some magyars came to us
- longbow kills a pike -> 29670pts (+20)
- longbow dies attacking a spear on mountain (protecting a wounded inquisitor)
- cataphract goes red but kills a longbow -> 29690pts (+20)
- inquisitor kills inquisitor -> 29705pts (+15)

The Spying action,
-----------------------
Since we can have a good chance to capture Tyre2 (4 inquisitor+2 cata in range), the target will bethe Abbasids (other option would have been Rus as they are too far away to do anything within the next 1 or 2t)
.... result after a safety attempt (costing 1504g) --> missed and war...


So back to action
Attack on Tyre2 (size6 on grass)
- 1st 4/4 cata loses dealing 3/4 to a swiss...
- 2nd 4/4 cata loses dealing only 2/4 to a swiss.
- 1nd 5/5 inquisitor kills the 2/4 swiss (showing the 1/4!!) -> 29730pts (+25)
- 2nd 4/4 inquisitor kills the 1/4 swiss and the city is no more -> 30355pts (+625)
...

retreat everyone to avoid letting the Abbasids win too many points (including bombing roads with Dromons)
Abbasids have 27500pts.

Save and Hit next turn... [forget to make peace with magyars)

IT
exchange blows with Magyars (losing the MDI army)
some useless peace, alliance and war between AIs
Abbasids do nothing more than trying to catapult stones on our Dromons
After hearing a Bomb, Septum riots (with our 3 armies inside, they do have balls ) opps it is full of Abbasids inside, forget to check hapiness after declaring war ...

And... we WON...

The SAVE before hitting 'return'

 

[Speaker]

Nicely played Jabah. Phew, what a great game played here guys! Tough scenario and a terrific finish.