RBC13B - Crazy Cordovans

It would be nice to pointy stick HBR before we finish Norse Traditions; that way, we can go straight into Castle Building without losing a step. I don't know that that's possible though; with 16 turns left and our forces barely existant, I don't think we can turn it around quickly enough.

So, we seem to have three options once Norse Traditions is done. First, we could keep moving to Seafaring- it gains us nothing, but maybe we can trade it to a Norse civ for CB later, and we take HBR from Spain. Or, we could move to research HBR, and expect to pointy-stick Castle Building from Castille. Or, we could research Byzantine Ingenuity. That path won't get us anything in terms of builds- aqueducts, which we'll get an equivalent of anyways, and colesseums for our non-existent happiness problems- but each tech is worth a few VP, and we can trade more effectively with Byz, Rus, and the Bulgars.
 
From other games, it appears Seafaring is dirt cheap to buy, so I would think we would want to go that direction -- get us closer to smithing. Maybe turn science completely off until we get HBR and CB and then go full-bore for our ansars. Maybe try to get smithing early?

Anyway, let's check the state of the world in ~16 turns when we finish our min run on Norse Traditions. I'd not be at all surprised to see us going after ansars at that point, with HBR and CB in hand.

Arathorn
 
I agree with Arathorn, at the current tech pace, I would expect Castle Building to be out by the time we finish Norse, which is our ticket to Arab Learning. I would probably shut research off, buy/extort HBR and CB (we should have all contacts by then, further dropping the price), and/or Seafaring. Then we can go for Ansars!
 
"Got it!" Good job there, I'll see what I can do to follow up and strengthen our position. Tech path is uncertain now but will clear up after Norse Tradition -- full steam for Ansars is clear, whether that means buy/research/pointy-stick.

The iron connecting sounds good - a few warrs to upgrade is good but as mentioned, we can't afford a lot of that and prefer Ansar tech anyway. BTW, that 'devious plan' idea is too devious, it's the puppet string exploit. ;)

Charis
 
THREE games feast, will do this Cordoba game, Franks, then Byzantines (tomorrow).

The year tis 915AD and Juan Carlos de Charis y Borbon takes the reigns of
power. We're in settling mode, and pre-Sword production, so it's a building turn.
The build queues look good, although I wonder about the temple in valencia.
It's to pull in the wool lux. Hmm... would there be any problem using an extra
city instead? Less shields, more unit support, more income. It will take 12 turns
to grow enough to do that, so I swap but next leader can veto and go back. Actually,
Lisbon DID get a temple and will pull in wool, so temple at Valenica now makes no sense.
It changes its mind again and starts a rax. Toledo swaps temple to rax too.

[0] 915 - A smidgeon-rush at Cadiz, swap Archer-rush-swap back to save 3 shields at a
cost of 12g to grow the city one quicker.

[1] 918 - Cordoba warr->sword placeholder. Odd, both blockades only have two units
and so can't stop anything. We keep slowing them, but won't be able to stop
either. It seems ok though, as we'll capture whatever is built so close to capital.

A fateful worker action, we go to hookup our iron, due in 3.

Exploration... who are we missing? Norwegians, Swedes, Rus, Abbasid, Turks, Poland,
and England. The norther Curragh will hit three of those. Our Ansar presses east.

[2] 921 - Cadiz settler->settler. Granada is founded on the east coast.
Curragh meets the Abbasids.

[3] 924 - Malaga founded on SW coast. Ansar who swung a tad north sees Poland. His
next stops are Rus and Turks. Valencia the city of the wishy-washy sees it needs
more improvements and roads, and detours from rax to worker briefly.

[4] 927 - Castille settler IS going for that very last backrow spot. French settler
is going for what seems to be spot due SE of Cordoba, a nice spot to capture someday.
Iron is connected, first made sword due in Cordoba next turn. We have 148g+21gpt
and can afford and will do two upgrades, plus one more next turn. Swords for pointy
stick are better than cash over the next 10-20 turns.
IBT - We hear of a massive barb uprising near Cadiz? Not a chance. It must be over
in Morocco. Too bad for the Fatamids :P

[5] 930 - We meet the English and Rus. Just Fatamids and 3 northern vikings left.
IBT - Madrid founded behind us. A Danish *zerk* shows up in neutral land right next
to Valencia? EEP! Is he coming for us?! I doubt it, but will keep an eye.

[6] 933 - Lisbon rax->Sword, pulling 5spt. Two swords head northernly, in general
direction of the lost Dane. Our ships and Keshik keep on movin...
IBT - France starts HRE!!

[7] 936 - France must be in the new age. Holy Roman Empire is a super wonder,
and will catapult whoever gets it into the Knight era. A sad day indeed.
Cadiz Settler->Settler. Yes, 'prime' spots are gone, but for upkeep and economy,
why not let this settler farm keep working? Sevile rax->Sword, also now 5spt :goodjob:
Oh, the French settler turned around when Madrid was founded.

Where to send the settler? I look over old notes, and one choice is the red dot just
SE of Cordoba. Hmm, I rather like the idea of settling in the Hills towards
Salamanca, both to give us a forward base of operations there, and more important,
to prevent them from founding another 'hill' city. It's 1 step up and 1 step NW from
the horse, which is 3 steps from both Lisbon and Salamanca.
IBT - Germans and Burgundy all start HRE. At 500 shields, we have about 35 turns.

[8] 939 - Minor note on preferences. Please turn **OFF** "Cancel orders for Friendly
Combat unit" and "Cancel orders for Enemy combat" unit. We just lost 2 worker turns
for that when the French spear walked by a worker. Our ship beats our Ansar in
finding Sweden (or a Swedish ship anyway), so the rider heads to Turkey.
IBT - Poles and English join in the HRE parade.

[9] 942 - I consider stopping short on the settler to let him build on the
river, but that would crowd the capital too much, and besides it doesn't have
food to support >size 6 anyway, so 1 further north is better spot. He moves.

[10] 945 - Cordoba expands. You get an extra half-turn to play with. I woke up
all swords so you can start to move them where you want. Alas two are pinned down
as the only defender of a city, but most others are free to go. Also, the
settler is right in place where I want to but him, but will allow a veto there.

Notes to next leader:

- Cadiz is a no-MM-needed one settler per 5 turns setup, although
our need for that is declining. Still, why not use settlers to shift two pop from
high food Cadiz to slower growing front line cities?! :cool:
(Actually, the mining of the hill just threw off the exact cadence.
- Cordoba needs a hill or plains mined to hit 10spt. Two workers just moved onto a hill.
I just gave Cadiz tile to Cordoba and it's 13spt. Mine the hill and it will be 15! :P
- It's time for war very soon. We have all vet warriors upgraded, for a total now of
8 swordsman! It's time to rock on Castille. The only question, and it's a good one to
discuss, is the tactical plan. Our roads to the front are poor. Castille only has five
fair cities, plus hopeless Madrid stuck behind us (still size 1, btw)
I would be prone myself to hit Salamanca first, then head straight to Leon. Hmm,
wait a minute... as a non-playable they only have two kings. If they are in those two
cities, we'll lose the chance to capture and keep ALL the rest. Now for some reason
I can NOT lookup the location of kings for non-playable civs in my editor. Does someone
know where Castilles are, or even better, what I'm doing wrong not to see them in editor?
In that case, we may well want to leave the capital Leon for *last*. E.g. start at
two nice cities, Salamanca and Navarre. Then from Salamanca to Santiago, and other
backfill units hit Olieda and if Madrid is size 2, hit it as well. Only then
make pointy stick peace, either for horses or more likely buy horses and extort
Castle Building. Then in 20 turns finish them by sacking Leon.
- The remaining contacts are turks (SE of Ansar), Norwegians (NE of curragh), and Fatmids (W of curragh)
- I drew up more dots to settle once we take over Castille, and there's PLENTY more
for Cabriz to crank out.

Our look at the terrain...

RBC13B-Cordoba-945AD.jpg


RBC13B Cordoba 945AD

Arathorn <-- on deck
Justus
Charis
Corrado <-- UP

Good luck!
Charis
 
Sorry about the blockades, I had the first Castile settler blocked well with 3 units, but then the Frank settler started heading south also, and I was too nervous about leaving any cities vacant while they were adjacent. So I tried to delay them long enough for our settler to get a head start to the purple dot (Granada), hoping they would turn back once he founded. AFAIK, the AI won't settle within 2 of our existing towns, so once Granada was founded, the only other eligible tile would be the Gibraltar spot.

Good point about the preferences, I've never really messed with them, so I didn't know they would interrupt worker turns, good to know. (I didn't turn them on, just never checked).

As for the tactical plan, I agree the time to strike is soon. If anyone knows where the Castille kings started, it would be Corrado, from his other SG, but I agree we should avoid the second king city. If the 2nd king is NOT in Salamanca, I would like to see us get Leon, it can be a very productive city. Also, I definitely agree we should buy HBR before we go into peace negotiations, in fact once we get those last three contacts, we should buy it, as it won't get any cheaper.
 
From my experience, the Spanish kings are usually in Salamanca and León (and if you knock those out first, AIs will come and settle those spots before you can say 'no fair' ).
 
IIRC, Salamanca has the other King. Given the choice, I'd rather take Salamanca than Leon- Leon may become a power builder, but it'll be corrupt, and I'd rather the Castillian survivor be at the edge of our lands rather than smack dab inside of them.

So, the question in my mind before I begin to attack Castille is: whither France?

If France does get the HRE, we're in a lot of trouble. They'll catapult to Knights, and begin the Knights Templar, assuming they follow the path they've taken in all of my previous games. This will make future conquest of them very tough. And unfortunately, once Spain is gone, we've got nothing until we get Galleys. (Okay, we could go for the Fatamids, but Ansar v. Ansar is no better, maybe even worse, than Ansar v. Knight.)

I see four options.

#1: Do nothing. Someone else may nab the HRE, or we may get into position to overrun France just as they're finishing it.

#2: Plan for the war with Castille to be quick- just enough to cut them down and get some techs out of them- and then send the invasion force north to attack France before they get Knights.

#3: Ignore Castille for now (they'll never get Knights anyways- Western Church is not a free tech for them) and maybe even sign an ROP with them so that we can go attack France.

#4: Conquer Castille as much as possible so that we're in the strongest position to attack France, knights or not.


I lean towards option #2; it's the most flexible. If we had lots of money, we could build embassies and get an idea of how long we have and whether France would really win- everyone is building the HRE in their capital. But we don't have money, and what we'll get over the next ten turns will go right into upgrading our last warriors and/or buying HBR.

Anyone have any opinions?
 
I like option #2 as well. It seems the best. It might turn into option #4, though, if their kings are poorly placed.

I would be reasonably content to fight ansar vs. knight, though, as superior tactics (and our speed advantage) will hopefully win out.

I am going to be OUT until 3/24, so skip me until then. Sorry. :(

ROSTER:
Arathorn -- skipped until 3/24
Justus II -- on deck
Charis
Corrado -- playing now

I hope to have online access and may even be able to play but I can't count on either, so just plan on skipping me for most of a week.

Arathorn
 
I'm far more of the opinion to gut Castille like a fish, then rip up what's left of it in 20 turns. We could definitely use the economic and production base of their cities, the unit support of extra cities, and the security that France wouldn't ally them vs us or for some other reason see a second very awkward front open up if we don't hammer then.

The HRE is 500 shields, and we're on Demigod. We're talking about 40 turns here, and France is from what I hear the odds on favorite NOT to get HRE - Poland is.

My vote:
- Quick as possible war with Castille, but by that I mean capturing or taking as tribute every city but one king city, plus Castle Building, NO LESS.
- That means buying HBR just before ready for peace. So your option 2 is by no means "some techs", there's just one, and we need to buy HBR before we can get it. Also, they have to actually come up with Castle Building in order for us to take it, don't they?
- The solution to the problem of France is not hard. First few phases of the war must focus on IRON. If we cut off either horses OR Iron, No more knights... ever. This goes for any nation -- our path to success is - pillage their source of irons, use Keshiks speed advantage to slaughter the few knights we do see, then swallow the whole nation. France's iron is conveniently near us, btw. We'll do this with France, then repeat on one or more other Christian nations, for the glory of Cordova! :hammer:

Charis
 
Pre-turn: And so it was, in the year 945 AD, that the great warrior Al-Qarradah took the throne of the Cordobans, whom he attemtped to rename the Corradobans in his own image. His advisors attempted to humor him with such, and always referred to themselves as "Corradobans" until they got sick of the whole damn thing and sent him to lead the war effort so that they didn't have to listen to him anymore. Allah be praised.

Cities look fine. Knock lux down to 0%, and our cities look like they should stay in order. Now at 23 gpt.

Looking at the map for our war plans... Obviously, we want Salamanca (which shall grow greatly) and Santiago (for the Dyes). Oviedo is necessary for passage to France, but it is on hills, so should be our last target. Unfortunately, so is Navarre; maybe we'll try to bargain for that one.

Since Juan Carlos de Charis was so kind as to leave the Swordsmen unmoved, I shall take full advantage of it. Wake a swordsman in Toledo to attack the warrior that guards a Settler, and attack to delcare war. Lose 1 hp but kill the warrior and capture the Settler underneath.

Found Badajoz, which starts a Worker.

IBT: Flee! Flee, you Spanish workers, you!

948 AD (1): Granada Warrior->Worker.

Front line units wait outside of Castille's borders for the reinforcements.

IBT: 2 Castille sword and a spear arrive.

951 AD (2) Cordoba Sword->Sword. Cadiz Settler->Settler.

Meet the Turks.

Troops play a game of manuever with the Castille units- I don't want to exchange units, I want to destroy his.

IBT: More movement by Castille.

954 AD (3): Lisbon Sword->Sword. Seville Sword->Sword. Malaga Worker->SPear.

Move in towards Salamanca. Vet sword v. Spear- lose 2, win. Vet sword v. Sword- lose 2, win.

Vet sword v. reg sword in hills- dies, does 1, promotes it. On the assumption that this is my bad luck being absorbed, make another vet sword v. reg sword in hills attack, flawless victory, and we now have 5 units adjacent to Salamanca.

Meet the Fatamids and the Norwegians. Having met everyone now, decide to get the Ansar on his way home, where he's more useful. Everyone has HBR; 255 is the going price, though some will do 235, and I expect I can haggle it down a bit.

IBT: Span sword attacks our sword on a hill; does 2, then dies. Archer comes out of Madrid.

957 AD (4): No builds.

5 units attack Salamanca.
Vet sword loses 2, kills Spear.
Vet sword flawlessly kills Spear.
Reg sword does 1, dies on Spear.
Wounded sword does 1, dies on Sword.
Wounded sword loses 1, kills wounded Spear.

Only a wounded sword showing, but out of units.

Reg sword attacks warrior, flawlessly victory and promotion.

IBT: Sword moves into Salamanca, Archer moves on top of our iron.

960 AD (5): Cordoba Sword->Sword. Granada Worker->Temple.

Sword out of Cordoba attacks archer, flawlessly victory, promotes.

Found Mertola on south-eastern coast. Begin warrior.

Salamanca:
Vet sword attacks, loses 2, kills sword.
Wounded sword attacks, loses 1, kills spear.
Wounded sword attacks, kills sword, promotes.

Nothing there but the worker- but I only have a single sword left, and it won't survive the counterattack even if it survives the assault. For one more turn, we wait.

IBT: Castille will give us HBR for peace. We demur. More swords move into Salamanca's vicinity.

France demands 26 gold for our survival. Discretion and valor and all that. We cave. Bastards.

963 AD (6): Norse Tradition is researched. Start on HBR to cut costs.

Elite sword attacks Salamanca, red-lines but kills the top sword. But still a spear waiting, and then the leader, and all our units are red. Once again, we hold off, but 3 fresh units are moved into position to attack next turn.

Vet sword kills spear in the open.

Hm. We can trade to get HBR for 153 g + 3gpt. Or we can spent 32 gpt ourselves and research it in 5. So 120 for it in 5, or 213 for it now. Since we're waiting anyways for Castille for go to peace, I say we just research it ourselves. Tech up to 60%, now getting 4 gpt but HBR due in 5.

IBT: Elite sword attacked and killed. Another sword attacked, but we kill the attacker.

Norway offers us Seafaring for 70 gold. As the price will only go down, I decline.

There's a Danish Beserk outside of Salamanca. :confused:

966 AD (7): No builds.

2 vet swords kill a sword and a spear in Salamanca. Wounded sword kills a Spanish king, and we finally capture Salamanca and 2 workers inside. Begin warrior for MP.

Spain will now give up HBR, but no cities yet. Feh. We'll keep at them.

Elite sword attacks an archer out of Madrid, loses 2 but wins.

IBT: Sword attacks Salamanca, but does no damage.

Now Germany demands 26 gold. Oh, the infidels will pay. Yes, they will. Later. We cave.

969 AD (8): Cordoba Sword->Sword. Seville Sword->Sword.

IBT: Another attack on Salamanca, and this one kills one of our swords. But we red-line the attacking sword.

972 AD (9) Cadiz Settler->Settler. Toledo Barracks->Sword.

Vet sword loses 1, kills Castille archer.

Flawlessly kill 2 swords outside of Salamanca.

Castille will now give up Madrid *or* HBR, but not both.

IBT: Our stack holds off an attack from a Sword; ours is red-lined, but then promotes to Elite. Archer attacks our Elite sword outside Madrid and dies.

Burgundy complains about our Curragh, and I had to save our response for posterity.

lothar.jpg


With my wife... Morgan Fairchild!


975 AD (10). Ahem. Back to work. Badajoz Worker->Barracks.

The units outside of Salamanca hold and rest before going into enemy territory. Remember, don't bother to attack Leon- it has the final King in it.

I've left 3 units unmoved in and outside of Toledo. It's Justus' choice what to do with them- move them towards Salamanca to eventually hook up with the team that will attack Santiago, or to press northeast and attack Oviedo. Oviedo is unhooked from their road network, so you shouldn't face swords, but spears on a hill will not be a fun attack.

Castille will now offer us both Madrid and HBR for peace. We get HBR next turn, so at that point see whether we can get Castle Building and Madrid.

We have 775 VP, putting us 8th. The Abassids, needless to say, top the list.

It's been slow slogging up to this point; our small starting forces couldn't both beat the enemy and still be strong enough to move forward. Hopefully, the tide is changing.

For Allah!
 
Wow I must say that was a spirited defense of Salamanca by the Castillians. Turn zero IBT war, eh?! Glad I left all 8 swords unmoved :lol:

Nice job. Justus, do us justice! Finish HBR and see the situation on Castle Building. I just can't see researching it ourselves, so it's my strongest hope we can hold out prosecuting the war until either they have Castle Building or until they have just the one king city left. (And there is only one left, as we killed one at Salamanca)

With Arathorns out of town skip, Justus is up, I'm on deck.

Charis
 
Originally posted by Charis
Wow I must say that was a spirited defense of Salamanca by the Castillians. Turn zero IBT war, eh?! Glad I left all 8 swords unmoved :lol:

If you hadn't left them unmoved, I wouldn't have gone for it. I would have- and maybe should have- moved our swords into position for a stack of 8-9 to hit Salamanca all at once; that would have stopped the damn "Kill 2 then have 2 more show up" situation that lasted for years. But I thought that taking out the settler pair right next to our city would be worth it, both for getting Spain closer to the table, and for getting us 2 free workers.


Justus, do us justice! Finish HBR and see the situation on Castle Building. I just can't see researching it ourselves, so it's my strongest hope we can hold out prosecuting the war until either they have Castle Building or until they have just the one king city left. (And there is only one left, as we killed one at Salamanca)

Well, with HBR taking only 5 turns to research, I expect CB is only going to take 7-8; it's not that much more expensive.

The question is, how much farther ahead of us do we believe Castille is? If we think they'll be lucky to have CB, then we should just make a quick peace next turn so that we can declare war that much sooner next time. If we think they might have pushed into the 2nd age techs, then we should keep fighting for the 6-8 turns we need for CB, and then see what we can get. If we're very lucky, we can conquer Santiago and Madrid and get a few 2nd era techs and Oviedo for peace. If we're unlucky and they don't have any techs, we'll just have to keep slogging through Castille until we've conquered them all. Which, honestly, isn't that bad an idea, so maybe we're better off pressing the attack until we've researched CB ourselves.

But y'all have far more Demigod experience than I do, so I leave that up to you.
 
Got it, although I don't know how far I can get tonight. I will at least post a partial once I see the post-HBR situation, if I can't finish tonight.
 
I saw a call for linebackers. What exactly do you want linebackers for? Charis's call on the iron is the way to dust the French. Your conquests will get very easy against the French and Burgundians with Assains. Use them to disconnect the iron. Its sneaky and usually really effective. And until they get religous persecution, a great way to make horsemen or archers their best units. I will enjoy following this game. Just a note, when I played as the Cordoban's I bought Germany as my buddy initally, wiped out Castille, France, Burgundy, and most of Germany and still lost a VP victory. On Demigod the tech rate is slower overall then on Monarch or Emporer, as the computer will use almost all its income on the cheap to build but expensive to maintain units. (I timed this, 3rd age techs are agonizingly slow in Demigod, unless the Turks or Abassids get cranking.) You can really help your cause by not researching to Pikes. When everybodies offensive weapons own all the defensive units the extra speed of your ansars is insanely more powerful.
Good luck.
 
By linebackers, I was referring to running out of units to block the AI settler pairs, I needed someone to plug the gaps! ;)

Interesting thoughts about the difficulty actually slowing the tech pace, I haven't noticed that, but haven't played this one all the way through yet.
 
Al-Justus the II takes the reigns, thinking it wasn’t so long ago his grandfather ruled the land. Although he was chosen as Caliph to continue taking the war to the Castillians, Al-Justus was a man of peace. Well, not really, but after looking at the state of our military, and the fact that with our swordsmen on the front are wounded, most of our towns are protected by next to nothing, (in fact 3-4 ARE empty, and we have bezerks wandering our lands…), and our best target towns are on hills. Al-Justus decides it is time to see what we can get from the infidels now, and prepare to return later. We know we can get the secret of Horseback Riding, although that is so simple, we should be able to learn that from anyone. In fact, we can. We can also learn Seafaring from any of the Viking tribes, except the land-locked Rus. But wait, even they know how to ride horses. Al-Justus smells the opportunity for an (insert Arabic word for Two-Fer here).

The fact we have Bezerker the Red wandering our lands (and 2 Longships off our coast) makes me nervous, (especially after the Swede SG), so I buy Seafaring from Denmark for 4gpt, hoping for some insurance. Now I can trade to Kiev for. . . Why can’t I trade Seafaring to Kiev? Weird, I know they start with Norse, and didn’t have seafaring, must be because they have Byzantine flavor, they won’t accept other flavors? None of them have Smithing yet, BTW.

OK, checking prices on HBR again, and notice several of our rivals (Byz, Turks, Abbasids, and Poland) are including our Map in the price. :eep: We are behind at least 4 techs. It will cost us 29g to finish the last turn of research on HBR, or we can buy it outright from any of a number of people for about 40, probably worth the extra to see our possibilities now. Actually, I can get full value for our WM, although I don’t know if it’s been sold yet. Sell WM to Poland for HBR, 7g.

EDIT Left out this paragraph on the Peace Treaty:
After buying HBR, I could get CB or Madrid, not both. CB was the key to unlock the next age and see what we had, while Madrid is a marginal city that may flip to us anyway, or can be easily taken later. I am actually able to get Castle Building, 3 workers, 2g+4gpt from Castile for peace. Added to our brokering, we have 8 slaves in Cordova ready to start improving our lands.
We’re in the second age! :dance:

Al-Justus receives a revelation of Arab Learning, and inspired by his studies, he looks around to see who our most knowledgeable rivals are. The Big Four, Byzantine, Poland, Abbasids, and Turks, all have at least Code of Laws and Early Siegecraft, and since they are asking about our Map, they must have Map Making as well. Sweden is knocking on the door, as they have CoL and Siege, but no map option, so no MM. Wait a second, there’s that smell again, (No, it’s not the Wool). We can afford CoL, actually a net cost of around 260 if we include our Map. We can also afford Siegecraft, for about 28gpt, and if we turn science and lux off, we can hit 41gpt (temporarily at least). We could easily buy Siegecraft, and then trade it to any one of the masses for CoL. But, if we can afford Siegecraft, then we should be able to afford Map Making, as it’s the same base cost, and only one less civ knows it, right! This could get creative, but it’s our best chance to slingshot back into tech parity. Now is the time, as our WM still has some value (40g) to the Big 4 other than Poland, but they will trade it around next turn if we don’t act now.

Here goes:
Buy Code of Laws from Abbasids for WM, 14g+11gpt.
Buy Map Making from Byzantines for WM, 27gpt.

That wasn’t so bad. Now we can take our turn in the Great Map-Trading Frenzy, and see what we can get out of it! I start with the little sisters of the poor, so I can consolidate their maps cheap, before dealing with the big dogs.

England-WM, 4g for WM, Bulgars, Code of Laws (took all that, their map better be good!)
Magyar-WM, 2g for WM
Denmark – WM for WM
Rus – WM for WM
Celt – WM + Worker for WM
Fatimid – WM for WM
Burgundy – WM for WM + 2 workers (one was a captured Frank, so I thought it would be OK, not seed corn, they still had another native in the capital)
Bulgar – WM for WM
Norway – WM for WM
Sweden – WM, Early Siegecraft for WM, Contact w/Bulgars
Franks – WM + Worker for WM
Germans – WM + 72g for WM
OK, time for the big players:
Byzantine – WM + 50g for WM (their WM was an insult before I started the trading!)
Poland – WM + 4gpt for WM
Turks – WM, 90g+2gpt for WM
Abbasids – WM, Worker, +50g for WM

Net gain of three techs (CoL, MM, Siege), 5 workers (there were more on the table, but we haven’t hit turn 50 yet), 250g, and a full WM, all for 33gpt net. We should be able to offset some of that with map sales each turn.

OK, I haven’t hit enter yet, but I thought I would pause here for discussion. We have a major tech decision to make here. After all these deals, we have 416g in the bank, and can break even at 10% lux and 10% science. Or we can go up to 50% science, losing 26gpt (which we would have to offset with map sales for the 20 turns until our payments end). Our tech choices are:

Smithing 32 turns at 50% Blacksmiths (factorys)
Medieval Combat 22 turns at 50% Med. Infantry, moves us to 3rd Age
Jihad 27 turns at 50% Ansars!

My thoughts at the moment:
Smithing. It’s the most expensive to research ourselves, we will definitely want it, and if our Viking friends get sidetracked on the “normal” techs, we may never get to it, so it might be worth going for at minimum. However, it should also be the cheapest to buy if/when they do get it, as it’s not our “flavor” which seems to be a discount, based on Seafaring.
Med. Combat. It would open the 3rd Age, and might be worth some trade value, but I doubt we would get there first. Still an option.
Jihad. Obviously this is the one I want, but it isn’t cheap to research. I’m pretty confident that our Arab brothers will prioritize this one, as it’s got the UU, and the Abbasids seem to be rolling in money. I’m thinking we would start at minimum, go up to 50% if map sales prove to offset the losses, and hope that we can at least get a good discount when they do come through.

I will be out of town most of the day tomorrow, but will be back tomorrow night, so I’d like to hear some comments. Otherwise, I am going to reposition swords to ensure we have a garrison in every town, swap Lisbon and Valencia to Town Halls (50-shield courthouse), and probably switch Cordoba to a Library. It’s at an ugly 14spt, and will waste 12 if the sword completes. Even if we start with min research, we will be doing some research this game, and we could certainly use the culture. Our new slaves can get it to 15spt+, and it can start on horses. Also, any thoughts on Wonders? CoL allows Doomsday Book (Wall Street, needs 4 town halls). If/when we get Med. Combat, it allows Bayeux Tapestry (Sun Tzu). I think not yet, anyway, although we might want the Viking Saga, as we are still in a race against time. The good news is we are now 3rd in VPs at 1510, thanks to 985 for techs. Abbasids are still in first with 2845.

Our wonderful new World Map, 975AD
RBC13B_975WM.jpg
 
Outstanding trading Justus :goodjob: It's SO important to have that 'nose' for brokering. With so many civs in the game, it's just huge. It not only gets you caught up in tech, but ahead in cash. Heck, even in our Sid game two big deals got us at the head of the pack in tech and great income.

BTW, you didn't mention the little tech known as Castle Building? May I assume that's what you got for peace with Castille?

I believe the discount for off-flavor techs has nothing to do with flavor per se, but what the tech enables for you. Seafaring gives you zilch if not Norse, so it's dirt cheap. Smithing, if I'm correct, would be expensive as it gives you something nice even if not Norse.

All great choices on next tech!
- Smithing 32 turns at 50% Blacksmiths (factorys)
- Medieval Combat 22 turns at 50% MDI, moves to 3rd age
- Jihad 27 turns at 50% Ansars!

I tend to think that brokering in this game is the key to success, as you saw. So research an expensive one that while nice can wait, at min sci. That's Smithing in 40 (certainly *NOT* 50% for a savings of only 8 turns!) Plan to buy Jihad from the other strong Arabs who you know will research it and not ignore it, and most of all save up your money, don't spend it on research, and plan to buy and broker Medieval combat, preferably for a two-fer, but big cash would be good too. Get enough cash and we can even steal an expensive or monopoly tech (or one in another flavor) I would go so far as to forget the library too, but that's just one building in a top city and couldn't hurt, if you like it.

The Arab tree is by far the MOST CRITICAL for us - we want Ansars and *ASAP* (before/near Knights), and we want Assassins for iron/horse pillaging. Oh - the other reason for high cash, low research -- to buy the superpowers into alliance when the HRE winner is clear. E.g., if France gets HRE, buy both Germany and Burgundy, maybe even Poles, into alliance vs Joan, then when we whoop up on her real good, and the alliance is up, turn on your strongest 'ally' and declare on them, brining in the other two as allies. Should be quite effective :D

Keep moving us forward!
Charis
 
Oh, yea, Castle Building :cringe: Somehow that part got lost in translation.

After buying HBR, I could get CB or Madrid, not both. CB was the key to unlock the next age and see what we had, while Madrid is a marginal city that may flip to us anyway, or can be easily taken later. I am actually able to get Castle Building, 3 workers, 2g+4gpt from Castile for peace. Added to our brokering, we have 8 slaves in Cordova ready to start improving our lands. :)

I was originally leaning toward the min run on Smithing, but thought it would be cheap to buy. If not, you're right, we are better off with the min research (the "turns at 50%" were for comparison purposes only). That would also avoid the problem of our Vikings getting sidetracked and not prioritizing it for us! Whereas I am certain Ansars will be a priority for the Abbassids. I'm still going with the Library, it will come in handy later, and if not Cordova wastes 12 shields. Besides, maybe the extra culture will help vs. Madrid!
 
lurker's comment: great game you have here:) One question for justus: Why don't you go back and resell the updated WM: you should be able to get back the worker you paid to the celts as well as pick up a lot gold.
 
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