RBC4c - Mesoamerican Aztecs (Sid)

Well, my thoughts on the max research are this:

Monarchy is the best government available in this scenario. We are losing about half of our production to the despot penalty. So we want to get the gov ASAP.

This scenario is only 175 turns. Another 40 turn min-sci run and we will be almost halfway done with the game.

I expect that we will get the tech in 25-30 turns. I don't expect us to get it first. But we will NOT be able to afford trading for the tech. It will be prohibitively expensive. But the AIs will lower our cost and time to research it. That is why putting as many beakers as possible into it will be beneficial.

I see the choice of going max research versus min-sci as the tradeoff of 10-15 turns of much-improved production versus our despot income for 25-30 turns.

We need all the production that we can get. That is why I favor max research on the tech.
 
Actually, assuming you don't pay monopoly price, buying is cheaper than researching (75% of full price.) Without any economic multiplier buildings (and I don't think we're getting any), a beaker is equal to a coin, and it doesn't matter whether we invest it now as research or later as a coin, and later is more flexible in the interim of course. AI research reducing our research costs is a red herring; as soon as multiple AIs get it, it's cheaper to buy.

IF we can actually get Monarchy in 25-30 turns, full research can well be worthwhile, especially on the chance we might actually get it first. However, I don't think our measly three cities really have a chance at researching a 250%-cost tech faster than 40 turns. Subtract some lux tax from our total research potential, too.

Once Monarchy actually becomes available, Speaker can probably judge how long it'll actually take to research, comparing it to the times for other techs. A hint: temporarily turn all the population into 3-beaker scientists. That's about the upper limit of our research potential in the near-to-mid-term and might let us judge the research time. Our potential won't grow much in the next 20 turns, as all three of our cities will need to be busy putting out settlers and workers...

Basically, what basis do you have for that 25-30 turn number? I don't see any mathematical reasoning behind it. I'll have to run the editor and look at the numbers...
 
The basis on the 25-30 turns is more or less instinct. It takes into account that the AI will reduce the cost for us. It also is based upon our getting more cities online, both via capture and settlers.

My guess is that we would not be the first to research it, but we would also not be the last to get it.

That is my guess. But if you check the editor, that will obviously be a more definitive answer.
 
OK, finally got a chance to check out the save and editor. By my calculations in a couple different ways (both directly and comparing to other techs), Monarchy costs 960 beakers to research.

At 80% science which is the max we can realistically run for the foreseeable future, we have 19 beakers right now. That's over 50 turns to research Monarchy. To get research down to a worthwhile 30 turns, we'd have to double our beaker production by 10 turns from now. And that isn't happening. :)

So go for Monarchy at the minimum, and pick up cash in the meantime to pull brokerages whenever we can. Getting contact with the Incans will help enormously in that regard. And if someone else gets Monarchy sooner than that, we toss out the minimum and buy in with cheaper cash.

BTW, in the current save, get Texcoco MMed to work the exotic birds tile for faster growth. :whipped: And have Tenochtitlan build a worker; it'll grow back immediately. Finally, Tlatelolco may want to swap to settler now, as it's stuck working low-food tiles, and it's too far away to contribute any more archers for the Olmec capital battle.
 
Sorry, I played before I read T-Hawk's latest comments, BUT I came to all the same conclusions he did. What do they say? Great minds think alike?

Goal 1: :hammer: the Olmecs
Goal 2: Figure out Monarchy question.

IT- Potonchan (the Olmec capital) is located 3 tiles southeast of where our army currently is positioned, but it is on the other side of a river. Were the stack positioned one tile to the southwest, it could then move one tile south here, then I could declare war and move one tile east, and likely be in position to attack without crossing the river. As is, we'll lose one turn, but no big deal. Just something to think about in the future.

The stack moves one tile southeast. I adjust Texcoco to grow in 2 turns instead of 3, while still building the barracks in 4 turns (11 shields remain: 4 in the next two turns plus 2 on growth, then 4 on turn 3, and built on turn 4 with some waste, but already at size 3. Tlatelolco needs one more shield to be at 7spt, an archer every 3rd turn rather than every 4th. We will have a monopoly on Ritual Sacrifice, unless the AI develops it in the next 5 turns.

660Ad (1): Troop positioning. We are already 5 troops over the limit. Capturing another town or two will really help our economy.

670AD (2): Tenoch and Tlatelolco build archers and continue training them. Olmecs refuse to give Enslavement to us, so I declare war. Trailing archer captures exposed Olmec worker who heads toward Texcoco. 5 archers move on Potonchan with another a step behind. The sixth archer in the original stack sits tight to march on Chilapa when reinforcements arrive. Potonchan has a regular spear on top. It turns out that Texcoco's 5th shield is corrupt, but the barracks is still due in 2 turns, now with no waste.

680AD (3):
Attack on Potonchan:
Elite Archer d. Reg Spear 4-1
Vet Archer d. Reg Spear 3-1 and promotes
Elite Archer d. Reg Spear 1-3
Potonchan falls. [W-L: 3-0]

One Toltec archer is in range to attack next turn and also a settler/archer pair. Potonchan is garrisoned with 2 healthy archers and a healthy spear, although they are not fortified. Tlatelolco's growth requires luxuries to be raised to 30%. It now makes 7spt.

IT- Reg Spear d. Reg Archer 1-3 and promotes. Resistance ends in Potonchan. 2 more Olmec Archer/Settler pairs come into view along with the 3rd one from last turn. [4-0]

690AD (4): Texcoco's 4th shield is now uncorrupt. :confused: Not sure why this happened. It has 2 happy citizens and 1 unhappy, so it can't be WLTKD. Anyone know why?

Vet Archer d. Reg Archer 2-3 and promotes (2 slaves captured).
Elite 4/5 Archer d. Reg Archer 3-3 (2 slaves captured).
Elite protected by 2 vet archers. [6-0]

700AD (5): Ritual Sacrifice is finished at a monopoly, but no SGL. Tlatelolco builds archer and starts Settler. I think we have enough Archers to deal with the Toltecs by now and it's time to expand. Tenochtitlan switches to granary so we can start to pump out settlers and workers. We should be able to grab 5 luxury resources when all is said and done. I trade Ritual Sacrifice to the Toltecs for Enslavement and 85 gold and to the Maya for 147 gold.

The Monarchy Question
100% science = 29 beakers = 34 turns = 986 beakers
90% science = 27 beakers = 36 turns = 972 beakers
30 beakers (using a scientist) = 32 turns = 960 beakers
55 beakers (all scientists) = 18 turns = 990 beakers
52 beakers (all scientists minus 1) = 19 turns = 988 turns

So the lowest cost I can guess is 960 beakers for Monarchy, which will decrease as it is discovered by the AI. But here's the catch (tm). At this moment, the highest research rate we can sustain is 70%, due to a required luxury rate of 30%, having moved a MP from Tenochtitlan to Tlatelolco. That is 20 beakers per turn. Within 5-10 turns we can have 2 luxuries hooked up, which could lower our luxury tax to 0 and raise our science income to as high as 25-30. Building settlers and workers will be essential in the next 40 turns since we want to fill in "our" land. This will significantly reduce our science income as population is shifted from improved tiles to unimproved tiles. Perhaps more importantly, we will lose our ability to buy other techs with gpt or with straight cash, since any perturn spending will drop the rate back to 40 turns and then all our research spending would have been wasted.

My final verdict. It is certainly possible to get Monarchy in less than 40 turns, but I consider it a gambit and I don't think it's worth the risk. We will not get Monarchy at a monopoly, so we will fall far behind in tech, and will not be able to buy our way out with terrible tech prices on Sid. So I opt for Monarchy at 10%. Judge me lightly.

710AD (6): Chilapa is now size 2, and even though the troops are not all in position yet, I start the attack a turn early, hoping to take the city before it can whip another spear (and make it so we destroy rather than capture.

Attack on Chilapa
Vet Archer d. Reg Spear 2-3
Vet Archer d. Reg Spear 1-3 and promotes.
Chilapa falls (and is wholly corrupt). [8-0]

720AD (7): Jade is now hooked up and luxuries drop to 20%. Maya have discovered stone carving. Potonchan now requires a scientist to be content, for two turns until it is connected to Tenochtitlan by road, so science is turned off. Troops move toward Izapa. Texcoco switches to Temple (due next turn), to bring in more 2-food-tiles and hopefully border expansion will grab the spices between Texcoco and Potonchan.

730AD (8): Contact made with the Moche tribe, who have 3 cities in addition to their capital. I trade them Pottery for 60 gold. They are rather backward.

Elite 3/5 Archer d. Reg Warrior 3-2
Elite Archer d. Reg Archer 3-0
[10-0]

740AD (9): Troops are now in position to attack Izapa.

750AD (10): Tenochtitlat Granary => Settler. Road is complete between Tenochtitlan and Potonchan, so the scientist is fired and science is back to 10%. Toltecs have Stone Carving and also have 2 Maya workers and 2 Toltec workers available. They must be at war with the Maya, which means the Toltecs will be gone soon. Troops are in position to attack Izapa right now, with 4 Elite (2 fully healthy) and 2 Veteran Archers.

Conclusion- The question is whether or not to finish off the Olmecs rather than let them stay alive in OCC glory. As long as they are more backward than us they will raise tech costs for us. I would like to discuss this as a team to figure out if they are worth keeping around. Is the AI-AI trading rate sufficiently high enough on the Sid level that they could pick up a couple techs from our other rivals which we could trade for? Thoughts? I have left the army with movement until after this decision. Whatever the decision, we should send the troops to block the chokepoint as soon as possible. The name of the game now is EXPAND EXPAND EXPAND and improve our lands so we can face the Maya. Good luck to Coffee.

PS- The Spear being built in Texcoco is meant to go to Tenochtitlan. No need to keep any cities empty to entice our rivals.

RBC4d
 
Fantastic turn, Speaker! Winning 10 straight battles is a nice help, indeed!

I would send Teno's settler due north 3 spaces. This will allow it to work the furs and cacoa plant. Plus, being so close to the capitol, it will be low corruption.

Lets put a temple in Tlat ASAP. A border expansion will bring in 2 more 2 food squares. It also might be worth whipping the granary there after next turn.

Whipping it would also free up its archer so that we can scout more to the north.

I'll have to think more about whether to finish them off or not.
 
Originally posted by Ridgelake
Fantastic turn, Speaker! Winning 10 straight battles is a nice help, indeed!
Click to expand...
I really wish the AI would build barracks, especially when they are so cheap here on Sid level. The fact that the units are all regular makes such a huge difference when even strength units fight. I did have good luck though, but not with leaders. A Jag army would be great for pillaging.
 
Even having thought about it overnight, there is no clear answer on whether to take out the Olmecs. On one hand, they will never be easier to take out than now when they are likely only guarded by a couple of spears. On the other, they may be able to acquire stone crafting or alphabet, thereby lowering our tech cost.

Table this discussion for a moment. What would everyone think of contining on and taking a swipe at the Mayans now? They are embroilled in a war with the Toltecs. Their backlines are probably relatively lightly defended. I doubt that we will have a more opportune time to strike them. They will likely come for us after they fight the Toltecs. On the other hand, they are likely in their GA and we really need to get out some settlers.

My thought is to take out the Olmecs and continue on and bite the Mayans. I dont have the save available at the moment, but I think that we could pull together about 8 archers. Dare we strike Chicken with such a force? It would be a major setback for the Mayans if we were successful. And as I mentioned, I doubt that a better opportunity will present itself in the foreseeable future.

I would continue on with the settler in Teno (to found north of the city), then go for jags. Tlat should finish its granary and then get a temple in there.

Thoughts?
 
OK, I checked out the save. Great work, Speaker! :goodjob:

Wiping out the Olmecs: do it. We're not behind in tech; we don't need to piddle along begging for two-fers. One caveat, though: that last city is on a mountain for an 80% defense bonus. I'd wait one extra turn for those two more archers to get there.

Striking the Mayans: not yet, I'd say. I'd bet the Sid cost factor will have at least six spears in their capital. More to the point, though, the Mayan lands are too far away for us to turn into productive lands for ourselves. We need the Mayan lands only towards domination victory conditions. Better to wait until they tie up some cities on expensive wonders and marketplaces and such for a while.

MM notes: have Tenochtitlan build a worker right now, it'll grow back immediately and still get the settler in 3 more turns. We still need lots of workers. Tlat should whip the granary next turn, to finish it before the city grows.

Oh, and temples are only 10 shields?! Why didn't somebody tell me - I would've had Tlat and Tex build them long ago. :crazyeye: Edit: duh, Ridgelake is right, below :crazyeye:

Next question is whether to use cheap archers or expensive but retreatable and enslaving jaguars for further military action. This scenario does allow a Golden Age, right? I might suggest holding off on jaguars until we get into Monarchy.

I think we can think about long-term plans now, as well. Looks like we're trying for a domination victory. 35% of land area (that includes the massive Amazon rain forests, right?) and 50% of population. We're at 5% and 20% right now, but I think we can do it! :hammer: :hammer: If not, pushing towards domination anyway is the way to win on score. :hammer:



Edit (hope Speaker sees this) :

Texcoco's 4th shield is now uncorrupt. Not sure why this happened.

Did Texcoco just get hooked up by road? That reduces corruption.
 
T-Hawk, we could not build temples until we had stone hooked up. That didnt occur until a few turns into Speaker's 10.

BTW, the last Olmec city is located on a stone quarry. It can build a temple immediately to help close off the borders.
 
I was going to propose sparing the Olmec capital and waring with the Mayans exactly because the capital is on a mountain. Any attack there will be costly, I'm guessing 6 archers for 2 regular spears. The nearest Mayan cities (3 IIRC) are on plains making them easier targets. I'd like to keep going making peace with the Myans at the 2-3 city mark. The remaining Olmec cities could be captured after peace is made with the Mayans. Having forward Mayan cities will help later. Its a good bet that the Mayans are in there GA now.

I can see I need to work on my mm'ing skills. Monarchy appears to be a long way away, 35 turns IIRC. The tech cost seems cheap however, the current asking price at 3rd is 520g, sorry I don't remember the tech. Waiting on Monarchy to initiate the GA is best but I'm guessing that we shouldn't wait more than 20 turns. Having slaves right now would be handy. There is still one more civ to contact.

I'm inclined to keep going, complete the one settler and make preperations for T-Hawk to attack the Mayans.
 
I would support Coffee's plan to take immediate peace with the Olmecs and march on the Mayans. I differ from Coffee in thinking we need to wait until T-Hawk's turn to attack the Mayans. A force could be assembled in about 5 turns. The Toltecs may be gone in 10 turns.

The question then becomes which city do we attack? Chicken or their other cities? Cutting off their first ring town may take out luxuries & stone. Without the game in front of me, I can't comment on it further though.
 
There is one Mayan city on our side of the chokepoint we can easily take out. I don't know how much damage we are aiming for, but we could hit that city and then hit one or two more on their side of the choke and get peace before they can bring any troops near us (since they have no 2-move units). I don't think our 14 archers are going to be enough to make too much of a dent, especially with their 16-shield Javelin Throwers running around. We still have several first-ring spots to fill around Tenochtitlan which will supply a real army for when we are ready to hit the Mayans. I move for securing the chokepoint and maybe a limited war on the Mayans outskirts--the sort of war that gets you a discount on a crucial tech, like say Monarchy?
 
I'm still in favor of wiping out the Olmecs. There's no time like the present to wipe them out, and their one city isn't going to research any techs to trade us. The Moche and Toltecs are much more likely to be two-fer partners, and we're certainly not behind the Incans either.

An option that hasn't been discussed is to go into Always War turtle mode against the Maya. Take the two cities near us, and set up a chokepoint kill-zone. Don't try to advance further, but let them waste their production sending units at us while we collect enslaved workers and GLs. Once we get into Monarchy, build up, and get all the ancient age techs, beeline to the Silent Hunters and crush a gassed foe.

Trying to advance on Chichen is a bad idea until we get to offensive units in the next age. I guarantee their capital will have at least 5 spears and probably more like 7.

Remember the domination conditions - we've gotta go much farther to get 50% of population than to 35% of land area. This means building up our own land, until we get to the Silent Hunters which will be this game's version of cavalry-against-muskets.
 
It would seem that the best approach is to wipe out the Olmecs and then depending on resources try to establish a hold over the choke point. If the Olmec conquest is successful I'd love to do the AW turtle mode thing. Otherwise I suppose its first ring cities, palace, FP and other things like that there for these 10 turns.

got it.
 
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