RBC5 - Feudalistic Mongols OPEN SG C3C 1.12

[Grimjack]

Wherein we lay down the as well as the

Not to mention the

RBC5-770AD Wherein we prepare for the Mongols to rule the world.

Our strength is that we are able to keep a HUGE army, so it is time to build one.

Start by kicking life into the fat and drunk homeguard. It is time to go to the front. Two muskets are sent from Karakorum to the front. Likely they were needed during the last war, but now we are not at war.
As far as techs go, Greece and Carthage are both industrial. Celts are behind us by Metallurgy.
I use a cavalry to sneak a peek at Delphi, a size 9 greek city, and there is a hop on top. Unfortunately there is a rifleman on top of Carthago Novo. Thats not very civil of them.
Ponder the 336 shields we have in Ulanbaata. A 10 shield per turn city could crank out one, perhaps two more armies during the game. SOmehow I suspect we as a military nation will produce more than that the natural way.
Smith's at 600 shields looks tempting though. Problem with Smiths being it is a useless tech for us, and it should not be allowed to detain us from rails/rifles.
Newtons/Copernicus are both worthless, since we do not do research by ourselves. Shakes is nowadays in C2C an excellent wonder, but alas not for the Feudalists. Especially the feudalists way nehind in tech. Suffrage is a mighty good wonder though. A really serious competition to the MIlitary Academy.
I will keep the shields towards Suffrage, or possibly ToE slingshot, and hope for a leader to be able to place military academy in a good city. Next leader should go to another cav army though. Cav armies are quite useful against entrenched riflemen.

Preliminary planning complete, time to prepare for a war against the Carthage well oiled machine. We will need some 10-20 cavalries for the initial advance, and preferably a couple of Trebuchets to use in a possible killing ground against the counters. It is hard to prepare killing grounds vs cavalry though, since they have move 3.
I will also need some 2-3 cavalry on our northern coast should they decide to sail from their subcontinent.
I buy Banking and Astronomy from Greeks for Saltpeter and 83gpt. Greece will need some defenses against the Carthaginians. We could always enlist the Celts should we need to present a soft target to the Carthaginians.
I put our lone scientist on Economics, since no one has that tech. When I discreetly check how much Greece would want to go to war against the Carthaginians, the answer is not very uplifting, since they cannot ever imagine doing such a nasty thing against the fine Carthaginians. Our envoy barely escapes with his life for suggesting such a thing.
Safe steal is 2000 coins, immediate 1000. Straight buy is about 1700 gold before haggling.
Given the boost I just gave the greeks, they will have Nationalism in a matter of turns, so the window where they are softer than us is not very large.
I consider switching from temples to walls in our front, but decide to wait and see which city the Carthaginians concentrate on.
I rush a settler in Gergovia. It is a corrupt city, and if a settler can get out a coupel of coins, so much the better.

I take a break here to patch up to patch 1.15. Almost forgot ...
Some bozo suggests we devote resources to researching Economics in 15. I gently remind him we are the mongols, we dont do research. We use all our resources to go to war.
Note that we have gained 20 gpt after patch. Likely due to lower corruption.

IBT: Karakorum: Cav->Cav,Kazan Cav->Cav, Gergovia: Settler->Settler, Hovd Musket->Cavalry,Nalayh: Worker->Worker,

780AD I spend 14 coins getting a fresh territory map of Carthage. I want to check if they have rails anywhere. Carthage has 11 size 12 cities. They are in a Democracy. But we have 20 cavalry.... Time for an immediate steal. If I succeed I get a bit closer to rails, if I fail, I get happiness as they declare on us.
Well, we fail, and Carthage declares on us. Time to see if we can do something about the Greeks. Greeks are easily bribed. 16 gpt gets them in on the deal. Greeks and Mongols go to war against Carthage.

Carthago Novo battle, top defender regular rifle. I suspect there is only one rifleman, so I deem it better to let the army deal with that, and the pikes/muskets underneath will be food for our undernourished cavalry. Lose eight hitpoints against the first rifleman. Then a second appears. I will use a vet cav to soften him up. Vet cav first redlines the rifle, but then get killed promoting the rifleman.
On top now is a reg musket. Vet cavalry takes him on and lose four hitpoints straight. Army takes on the musket, and we are back to our stubborn rifleman. Two vet cavalry retreats without doing damage, but third time is the charm. On top now is a vet cavalry which is easily dealt with by our own vet cavalry. Now we have an elite cavalry, and we raze Carthago Novo. I have something in mind that will need a LOT of workers a couple of years in the future. Earn a trebuchet and four workers.
I try to get wines and dyes from Greece, but he charges ridiculous prices. I much prefer to paying half what he wants in lux tax.

IBT: I cannot detect a single move from the Carthaginians, not a single cavalry sallies forth. Lets see if I can put some more hurt on him before he is ready.
Almarikh Cavalry->Cavalry,Tsetserleg Cavalry->Cavalry,BatShireet Musket->Musket,

790Ad I start the assault on Nora, a size 4 city. I will wait for the army before tackling Saldae which is at size 10.
I have some 10 cavalry available, and that should be enough against what is likely two regular riflemen in a size 4 city.
Vet cav vs reg rifle gets hurt by cannon, and retreats after dealing one damage
Vet cav vs reg rifle gets hurt by trebuchet and retreats after dealing one damage
Vet cav vs 2 hp rifle wins without getting damaged
Vet cav vs 2 hp rifle wins getting one hit.
I raze Nora in spite of it being only size 3. It is a bit to exposed, and I will need the workers. I do not think I have quite enough cavalry to take on Saldea this turn, I will wait until next turn. I will prepare though.
Found Hutag to fill in some Celtic lands. I do not want to settle on the front when I do not know where the Carthaginians are.

IBT: No counter this turn either. This is getting me nervous. Maybe I should let the army heal, so I can have that in reserve against Saldea.

800AD Battle of Saldea
Vet cav vs reg rifle dies dealing two hits
Vet cav vs reg rifle wins getting three hits
Vet cav vs vet musket retreats after dealing two hits
Elite cav vs 2 hp musket wins getting one hit
Vet cav vs 1 hp rifle wins, and Saldea is razed.
I will cover the cavalry force with three muskets. ( All my muskets within range. there are no enemy forces able to reach my city. )
Capture a stray worker.

Note, leaving large empty gaps of lands tend to make the AI civs go all out producing settlers, and bleeding their population dry would net me workers, and they less production. So it is often good to do this. I am of course hoping the Carthaginians will deal with any greek settlers....
I will leave two cavs on the southern front as zone defense in case the Carthage warriors decide to come here and play.
There are two Carthage ships in the sea now, I will play a single cavalry and a regular musket as zone defense on our northern shores.

IBT: Carthage signs up the Celts on a trade embargo... Ooo, shiver me. First counter appears and strike at our stack of troops. Knight versus Musket retreats after doing one damage. Second knight retreats after redlining us. Elite horse dies without doing damage. Third knight kills a musket receiving one hit. And thats it.
Darhan Musket->Musket,Rusadir Barracks->Walls,Choyr cavalry->Cavalry,Bayan Barracks->Musket,

810AD I decide to see if I can break one more city before I will have to huddle back and kill units if the flood have started, and take advantage of some high ground to get to and kill a first ring city. I start to advance cavalry along the coast, guarded by the army. I am trusting the AIs general reluctance to attack armies.
But first I need to kill off the troublesome knights. Vet cavalry vs reg knight wins 3-0, Elite cav vs 1 hp knight takes one damage and wins, Elite cav vs 1 hp knight wins without taking damage.

IBT: No counter but four regular knights and a veteran Ancient cavalry arrive at our southern borders. Good thing I have a zone defense.
Caracorum: Cav->Cav, Ta-Tu: Cav->Cav, Tabriz: Cav->Cav, Burdigala Temple->Worker,

820AD MOve forces into strike position, Discover that a fortified elite cav is on top of unfortified vet musket, so I unfortify the cav. Musket is a sacrifical tool.
Reinforce the threatened city so it is three muskets and two elite cav defending, switch from temple to walls. Maybe too late, but I reccon next turn, there will be even more Cartaginians there. Some spectators I sent up on a mountain spot a Carthaginian cavalry. It is defending Intombe against the Greeks.
I hate that you cannot pause during IBT: We lose three muskets and two cavalry defending against counters. Five cavalry, four knights and one ancient were attacking.
Richborough cav->cav,Lapurdum Walls->Cannon,Lindum Temple->Harbor,

830 Elite cav vs 3hp cav wins taking one hit,
Elite cav takes 3 hits and kills a vet cav, and Chagotai appears. Hi there cav army And on our weak southern front as well. Thats good.
I retreat the 2 hp ancient cavalry out into the jungle with a brave musket. The last one hp knight in the south will have to live this round, as I am out of troops here.
In the north Vet cav vs reg inf retreats after dealing one,
Vet cav vs reg rifle retreats dealing nothing,
Vet cav dies dealing one,
Vet cav vs reg rifle wins, but redlines,
Vet cav vs 2 hp rifle dies dealing one, but promotes him.
Vet cav vs 2 hp rifle dies but deals one hit
Army vs 2 hp vet wins getting 8 hits !!
Vet cav lose against rifleman
Elite cav wins against rifleman
vet cav loses against conscript
vet cav wins against conscript
reg cav vs reg cav wins
vet cav vs 1 hp cav wins
army vs 1 hp cav wins, and I raze Hippu along with Leos workshop.
That was a costly battle, and I will have top regroup now.
Good thing I have a coupel of muskets along in the back to guard our troops.

IBT: Carthage calls us, wanting peace. He wont pay us for it though. I am careful of our rep, and tells him to take his deals to someone else.
Richborough riots due to my sloppiness during wartime. I thought our positive weariness should last a bit longer.
When I zoom to rich, it has 2 happy, one content and 2 unhappy. Wonder what all that was about.
Use scrollahead to prevent any more riots.
August:Walls->Cannon, Dalanz:Cavalry->Cavalry,Toson Musket->Cannon ( No rax!!)

840AD: Our southern army kills a knight without taking hits.
I up lux tax to 30% so I can put most of our taxmen back to work.

IBT: I see Carthage lose a cav and a medieval against a greek cav before a longbow takes the greeks out. I lose two captured workers I had forgotten to put under musket guard against a carthaginian cav appearing out of the fog.
A musket redlines and retreats a carthaginian cav without taking damage.

850AD: Hmm, he must have disbanded the workers, Thats not very neighbourly of him.
Elite cav vs redlined Carthage cav wins, but no leader.
War weariness is bad. I kick up to 40 %, but I still need to have a few taxmen.

IBT: One mosket loses after redlining a carthage cav, and two muskets redlines but wins against their cavs. Carthage has started to go on the offensive.
Greeks get Nationalism, and they offer us an MPP. I decline for now, as I have no control over when Greeks and Carthage goes to peace.
Karakorum Cav->Cav, Lugdunum riots ebcause I didn't see the difference between content and happy citizen. Mandalgovi Cav->Worker

860AD Elite cavalry vs 2 hp rifleman on plains wins, getting 3 hits.
Vet cavalry vs 1 hp cavalry wins, getting one hit.
Shift some forces towards the south, preparing a welcoming commite for the Carthaginians.

IBT: Lose a musket that doesn't even have time to load up their rifles when the Carthaginian cavalry comes charging in. The wounded cav he was covering survived though. See a greek supercav defeat two cavs and a knight.
Alesia Cav->Market, Ta-Tu: Cav->Cav, Manage to get a riot this turn as well., Kazan cavalry->Cavalry,Tabriz cavalry->Cavalry, Darhan Musket->Musket, Choy Musket->Musket.

870: Use cannon on intruder knight, and take him out with a cav afterwards,
At Intombe, Army vs reg rifleman wins taking one hit,
Vet cav vs reg Numidian wins taking three hits,
Vet cav vs reg num wins taking one hit,
Elite musket vs two hp longbow wins taking two hits, and Intombe falls, and this once, I keep it.
I do not dare garrison the army in Intombe though, it will have to suffice with three muskets.

Taxes are rather high now, and I suggest next leader aims for the gems at Ngome before making peace. War wearness is huge, it feels almost like I am fighting in democracy.
Note that there be Carthage units in the shadows between Intombe and Tolosa.
Also, next assault, bring some cannon, as the riflemen sometimes defend very well indeed.
Should you feel especially bold, we may have enough cavalry to go after Carthage city, especially if you bring the two armies. That ought to put the hurt on Carthage. This might be a bad idea, as Carthage may very well start coming in greater numbers now that Greeks have Nationalism.

Who feels like bleeding the Carthaginians now ?
Save is here.

Grimjack

 

[Justus II]

Well, I have been looking to take a break from fighting Carthage in my SP Rise of Rome game, so I'll take a turn of . . fighting Carthage!

Got it.

 

[Justus II]

After Grimjack decides to accept the Mongol Pension Plan rather than Greece’s MPP, Justus Khan is called up off the bench to lead the Mongol Armies against the evil Carthaginians. Based on our alliance to the Greeks, I expect to fight through my entire term, so infrastructure will probably have to take a back seat.
The people are generally unhappy with the war, and we don’t have the technology for Fox News yet, so it looks like I will have to find some spoils to bring home!

My plan is a two-pronged attack, I want Ngome and the gems, with our eastern forces, and I will use the western army to get Sulcis, which should allow us to settle most of this area without cultural pressure. I will also need a cavalry force to cover the big clearing in the center, I’m not relying on the Greeks for much. I am tempted to go after Carthage, the capital, like Grimjack suggested, both to wreck him and get the Ivory along the coast, but at this point that may be a city too far, so I am going to focus on my immediate objectives, and see what happens when I get them.

Looking at our cities, I see how the happiness problems are hurting. Greece still has Wine and Dyes for sale. Hmm, at 50% lux, we are paying 136 gpt, dropping to 40% gets us down to 90. Buying the wine would cost us 35gpt, so we still come out ahead. We can probably drop it by more than 10%, actually, as in some of our corrupt cities, the lux tax doesn’t help much anyway, but the lux is good everywhere. I could get both lux for 70gpt, but that would tie up too much cash (we will still probably need to buy our way into the IA) and at least some of the unhappiness is temporary. So I deal for wines at 35gpt, and am actually able to reduce lux to 30%, saving 66 gpt. I do need to shuffle a couple MPs around, but am also able to put a couple clowns back to work, and change a couple to taxmen.

Looking though the builds, everything looks good, too bad we can’t cash-rush, and our happiness is too fragile to pop-rush except in emergencies. I would like a few more cannons, I switch Kazan over, using a little MM to get it to 3 turns at the cost of a food every third turn, but I don’t want to interrupt the rest working on cav.

IBT
Two vet cavs ride out to attack our musket stack N of Russicade, first retreats after taking 2hp off the top one, second loses 2hp but kills a second musket, both are exposed. 2 Greek cav take out a NuMerc and MDI.
Mandal Worker-Worker, Tseterling Cav-Cav, BatShireet Musket-Musket, Ulia Settler-Settler (we will eventually refill this land?), Nalayh worker-worker.

880AD (1) Send two elite cavs to finish off his exposed cavs, one loses 2hp but both get their man. Bring wounded back into Rusicade, and use the other to scout a bit ahead, no follow-on forces yet. I am going to push the Army, our cannons, cav and a couple muskets north toward Sulcis, use the road then duck into the woods. I send another pair of muskets and a cav due north to take the hill as a blocking position in case anything comes down the road. In the center, I push a group of cav, a cannon, and a couple muskets into the large clearing, which is now empty, after scouting a bit. My eastern force, the army and troops at Intombe, pause to heal. I do several worker moves, including sending half a dozen toward Intombe, I will need to connect a road to Ngome if I want to use cannons, and to get the Gems back. We have been doing a lot of irrigation, but I think we need to back off a bit, we are better off in our corrupt cities staying at size 6 or less, right? Also, now is a good time to crack the :whip: Tolosa and Agedicum both are 40 turns from a temple, and each get a double-whip. They are corrupt anyway, so a taxman or a clown doesn’t hurt too much, and the culture will fill in the void. I also whip a cannon in Lapurdum.

IBT Carthage sends a cav to kill a Greek cav, then two cav ride down the west coast road and attack our muskets on the hill. First retreats, inflicting 1hp, second loses 2 but kills a musket. Greeks counter against the Carthage cav, lose one but the second kills the Carthaginian.
Knights Templar generates a Crusader, Hutai worker-worker, Agedicum Temple-Cannon, Erdenet Cav-Cav, Lapurdum Cannon-Cannon, Tolosa Temple-Cannon.

890 (2) Use two cavs to kill the two exposed cav, one promotes. Cautiously push stacks forward one tile, Cav armies are great scouts, 4 move + see two tiles, they can actually get into Carthage territory, see Sulcis has a regular rifle, and be back in the musket stack in time for dinner. Switch Mandalgovi to Musket, start a couple forest chops. Move eastern army into the jungle toward Ngome.

IBT Cav kills Greek cav, another sneaks around our western stack to pick off a lone reinforcing cav in the woods, but is redlined. Hannibal also lands a cav near Gergovia.
Karakorum Cav-cav, Kazan Cannon-cannon, Almarik cav-cav, Dalan cav-cav, Eborac Temple-cannon, Ulaangom Harbor-cannon.

900 (3) Cav from Lugundum kills the reg cav that landed, -1hp. Crusader S of Intombe retreats the cav that killed the Greek, and an elite cav from our center stack finishes him, -1hp. As the center moves forward, I reveal another cav, another elite kills him, losing 1hp. Finally, another elite cav in the west kills the –2 cav from last turn. Whip a temple in Verulanium.

IBT No attacks! Typical AI planning, as my two stacks approach, he moves 2 cav from Sulcis, THROUGH Ngome, and into the Greek lands. He also pulls his workers into town, so he obviously sees me coming!
Verulanium Temple-Musket, Russaddir riots because I moved a healed cav out, who had been acting as MP, Gades settler-settler.

910 (4) Ngome: Army takes out the regular rifle (-3hp), showing a conscript. Vet cav attacks, kills it and promotes without loss, taking the town! I keep it, as it is only size 2, and will secure the gems instantly. We get a barracks and an aquaduct. When the resistance ends, I can whip a spear, then upgrade to musket when the road is complete. Workers are in place, start road in jungle to connect gems. Another cav kills one of his on the road, losing 1hp. Center stack and western stack are converging on Sulcis, can both hit next turn. (Western army could attack this turn, but I am moving the cannons up). I am probably going a little too cautious here, as the cav could attack alone sooner, but until I see his cav dry up, I am keeping up with the muskets. Probably will move faster after Sulcis. Besides, with our alliance, no hurry to end the war, still have 7 turns to go. Double whip temple in Camoludunum.

IBT 2 Frigates bombard two cav on the hill S of Carthage, then a cav attacks, killing the top one but redlining.
Tatu cav-cav, Cam Templ-Cannon, Tabriz cav-cav, Hovd cav-cav, Rusaddir Wall-musket, Burdigala worker-worker, Ereen Settler-Explorer (Didn’t think about them, since we don’t have Navigation, old habits die hard, could be useful), Bayan Musket-musket.

920 (5) Send an elite cav to kill his redlined cav. Sulcis: Cannons go 1 for 3, revealing at least 2 regular rifles. Army takes out the top one without a loss, elite cav takes the second wounded one, also without a loss, and a vet cav is showing. First elite cav dies redlining him, but second elite cav catches a fish, Tolui!

I keep the town, as much to have a place to build my cav army as anything, plus I can whip a spear or two to get it down to 1. It does have a barracks. I whip the spear in Ngome. 2 Cav move to take out Umtata, as it is up the road, first kills a regular rifle, losing 2hp but promoting. Second cav kills regular rifle, and razes the city, but he is exposed. Main stack moves toward Rusicade, including the eastern cav army. Tolui does form the army, and I fill it with 3 cav, but move it out of town. With 3 cav armies now, Carthage is looking a little more feasible.
IBT Hannibals counters are two cavs killing my two exposed cavs, but are themselves left open and yellow. 3 frigates bombard, and another frigate/galleon pull up to drop a rifle/settler pair near the ivory south of Carthage. We get the Pentagon message, I was already thinking about that, since we have all those shields in Ulaanbataar and no definite plans. (Checking, we would be wasting 99 shields, I have to think about that). Kazan Cannon-Cav, Darhan Musket-musket, Ngome spear-temple, Cataract riots, I missed that one.

I am taking an “Operational Pause” here, mostly because it is too early in the morning, and even though the kids are out of school tomorrow, I still have to go to work L . But I also would be interested in opinions on what to do about Ulaanbataar. I can switch and instantly add a cav to each army, which is certainly a Good Thing. It could be the push we need to really knock Carthage back on their heels. On the other hand, we can wait to rush that with our next MGL (if we get one during this war), and keep building those shields toward ToE or UniSuf, which can’t be rushed, assuming we get those techs in the next 40 turns. Speaking of tech, I haven’t done anything on that front, except check in with Alex, we can buy Physics outright for most of our cash (1750), or some combination of cash and GPT if we had any to spare as long as we are allied. We have 4 turns to go on our 83gpt payment to him, right now I am planning on waiting till then to buy Physics, so that if we do go into peace negotiations (which I am in no rush to do right now ) we can swing both Mag and ToG from Carthage. Right now, we could get a discount on Physics from Hannibal (850g, about half price). But I think he may offer some sale prices once Carthage is burning I want to at least take out Carthage and Rusicade, and settle near the ivory, with a wide cultural no-mans-land as a buffer. Rusicade should fall in 2 turns, if I let the armies heal, then Carthage 2-3 turns after that, which would time nicely with the end of the alliance. I would like some suggestions regarding the shield stockpile at Ulaanbaatar, I hate to throw away that many shields. However, the Pentagon is tempting, and might enable us to go wild on Carthage.

The Front, 930AD

 

[Grimjack]

However, the Pentagon is tempting, and might enable us to go wild on Carthage

And what we have been doing was only warmup

Banter aside, having a fourth cav in the armies could make that difference when up against a bad run and a veteran rifleman. I only had regular riflemen as well, but that has got to change when we reach the core. Right ?

If we continue to fight though, we are likely to get at least one more leader the next ten turns, we could rush Pentagon with that one for some free culture in a border city.

Artillery and large armies could even make a slow sort of progress feasible during the age of Infantry.

So, save the shields for Suffrage, somehting tells me we are going to war a lot. How we are supposed to get to INdustrialization I do not really know, perhaps by pruning the Greeks after the current deals run out.

Grimjack

 

[Charis]

Great turn Justus, and it's only halftime!

The Pentagon would be extremely helpful. We're so far off from Industrialization we could likely take Pentagon now and go on prebuild and still get it. With another leader and Pentagon in Ulaan, that would be another 4-cav army that would terrorize our foes. Or get Ulaan back in the business of making more cav and/or muskets.

If all Carthage can throw at us is what is has been doing so far, I can see no reason to stop until Carthage and their entire core is ours (if we stop at all?) Put the pedal to the medal and don't let up!

We're Feudalistic - the answer to lux problems is in part more MP, as I don't think we're taking full advantage of that (in smaller cities). And part two is to capture more lux cities (to help the larger cities with markets)

Good luck,
Charis

 

[Justus II]

Now that I have had some more time to think this over, on a good half-night’s sleep I think that the decision really depends on our course for the future of the Mongol nation. I see two diverging paths ahead:

Peace in Our Time
We complete the alliance in 5 turns, buying Physics from Greece with the gpt that will be freed up in 4. Then we can negotiate a peace with Carthage, having taken out Rusicade and Carthage, we should easily be able to get both Magnetism and ToG, and we are industrial. This gives us a 20-turn window to peacefully build up infrastructure and rails, assuming that the AI have Steam by then, and assuming we can buy it. (Without the war weariness and with the Ivory and Gems connected, we probably will be able to afford it soon enough). We then build our forces and prepare for the next war. Plusses/Minuses:
+ We enter the Industrial age in 5 turns
+ We have a long time for peaceful building, culture, etc.
- We don’t have much infrastructure to build, we have markets in most core cities, and the rest are corrupt. We could build lots of aquaducts, which in effect cost us 3 units of support each, so actually don’t help us in corrupt cities.
- By the time the 20 turns are up, the AI could be that much closer to infantry, depending on the path they choose, or they could get bogged down in the Nationalism/Communism/Facism line, and we won’t even have rails.

Carthago Delenda Est
We go all-out to take Carthage’s core, and possibly push them off the continent. I don’t know how ready we are for an intercontinental campaign, the Mongols never had much luck with ships When we have them where we want them, buy Physics from Greece (for cash!), get ToG and Mag from Carthage (almost for free by then), and see if we can get Steam (steal if needed). If not, turn on Greece and destroy them too.
+ Removes Carthage as a threat
+ Lets our Cav roll on into Greece sooner, maximizing the window before Infantry
- Will delay our entry into Industrial
- We have to be careful about getting overextended, or a Greek attack while our armies are deep in Carthaginian territory.
- Infrastructure? What’s that?

Obviously, Course of Action #1 would lend itself to the Universal Suffrage approach, keep the prebuild. Course of Action #2 begs for the Pentagon, and maybe Military Academy in Karakorum. Ulaan is at 499 shields, getting 12/turn. It could complete ToE in 9, but there’s no way we will have the techs by then. Suffrage would complete in 25, 20 if we mm for more shields, but there’s no guarantee we’ll have Industrialization by then either, depends on AI research paths. Karakorum could start building the Mil Academy now, and complete in 16 turns, or use it as a prebuild toward Suffrage, which it would complete in 31 (assuming we get Industrialism or another wonder tech within the 16 turns). But then again, with 3 4-cav armies, and another 1 or 2 likely from leaders, Carthage can be on their own continent and Greece could be envying the Celts in 30 turns! War weariness shouldn’t be too scary once the Ivory and Gems are connected. Besides, we’re the Feudalistic Mongols! Why would we give anyone the right to vote!

For now I am going to proceed with the Pentagon, and start Karakorum on Mil Academy, obvioulsy vetoable by the next leader, or keep as a prebuild. Timing works out well, as the Peace/tech decision will be up to the next leader as well, the alliance ends on turn 10 IIRC. I will probably buy Physics before our alliance ends, so we can negotiate with 2 techs on the table, we will need it anyway. I will probably buy it for cash, we have enough, and that way we don’t tie our hands with Greece once the curent luxury deal expires. If someone sees some in my reasoning, speak up!

 

[Charis]

Part of our the solution to our 'path' lies in a simple rule with a tough implication...

Rules:
- The only allowed governments are Despotism and Feudalism
- No aqueducts or hosptials
- Sun Tzu's Art of War must be built or captured

In other words, if we slow down and let our foes get hospitals while we have many size 6 and a few size 12 cities, we're in trouble! So building aqueducts would be a big no-no. Apart from that little point, good analysis. With all victories open, our clear path is "Domination" and thanks to that large chunk of brown island, we'll either need to send a Mongol fleet (ew!) or bang down on Greece.

Actually... Greece has Sun Tzu in Thermopylae, don't they?
War with Greece is required for the variant win, including the capture of Thermopylae before triggering domination. Bring it!

Charis

 

[Justus II]

Thanks, I had forgotten the rule about aqueducts, but I knew they were basically not a good value for us anyway, reducing support without much benefit in corrupt cities. Sounds like I'm on the right track. I agree, I think we can win this with cav, rails would be nice, but not worth a long delay of peace.

 

[Justus II]

930AD (6) After reviewing our options, I switch Ulaan to the Pentagon, wasting 99 shields, but I’m sure our 4-cav armies will more than make up for it. I switch Karakorum to Military Academy, due in 16. Also whip a spear in Sulcis. The 4th cav won’t be available until next turn, and two of the three armies could use healing, so this will be a turn of preparation. One vet cav kills the 2/5 cav S of Carthage, and gets back into cover, losing 1hp. Another kills a 3hp vet near Ngome, and moves back under the army.
IBT Our hill on the west coast is hit w/4 frigates, and the settler/rifle pair moves S to the old ruins (right where I want them). Two other ships move past our outpost at Lindum (the forgotten city). And, that’s it. No attacks, no cav! Oh, yeah.
Pentagon completes in Ulaan, start musket. Sulcis Spear-Temple, and the Mongol people are so excited about the Pentagon they add to our palace!

940AD (7) Battle of Rusicade. Cannons go 1 for 4, at least 2 regular rifles. Also, now at size 6 (good news), it was size 7 last turn. I add cavs to each army, then move from the back forward. Our 16/16 army attacks, killing 3 regular rifles while only taking 1hp! An unfortified cav is showing, use an elite cav to take him out, lose 2hp but take Rusicade. I keep it, I have an idea, it has a rax and a nasty aqueduct, but also has 6 workers! See a Celt MDI, he’s a ways from home. Our 15/17 army in the east, not needed at Rusicade, attacks the size-1 Mpondo. Take out the regular rifle (-3hp), then a 3/4 musket (-2hp), and now a 3/4 cav is showing. Use an elite to take him out, losing 3hp, then a vet cav on another wounded cav, and finally the army kills the last 2/4 cav. This must have been a M*A*S*H station! Town is autorazed, capture a Trebuchet and a worerk, Army is at 9/17. On the west coast, a cav loses 2hp killing his rifle, and capture the settler. Our 19/19 Army, with a half-dozen cavs, moves into position to hit Carthage, with some muskets following up. Depending on counters, I may wait for the center army to catch up, but I don’t want to wait for the cannons, Carthage has 4-wide borders. I also start to move up a couple of settlers on the coast.
IBT Celts move a few attacking units on Carthage, forgot about them. 4 frigates bombard my healing stack again, 2 hit, need to move them inland, but the hill is key terrain on that road. A cav attacks Rusicade, kills a musket losing 1hp. (I kept the Army outside of town). Another cav attacks one of my cav, trebuchet takes a hp, but he kills my cav, losing 2. Another attacks a Greek cav, losing 2. 2 Greek cavs come in and finish them both off. (Thanks, Alex).
Dalan Cav-Cav, Batshireet Musket-musket.

950AD (8) I’m curious about the Celts, I see an MDI, a spear, a pike, and a settler? We don’t have an embassy, so I buy one for 65g. Stockholm has a library and univ., building Settler. 2 Pike, 2 spear, wine, but no strategics! They aren’t at war with Carthage, they have an ROP, and it’s not attacking units, they are trying to settle the Ivory! OK, contingency plans, I will have to run some interference for a couple turns until my settler gets in position. Shouldn’t delay the attack on Carthage, actually if I take Carthage, it will be easier to block them. 19/19 Army starts the attack, kills top regular rifle, (-5hp), kill second reg (-4), kill a third (-4), but I should have saved an attack in case I needed it later. Vet cav kills rifle, losing 2, then another vet retreats against rifle #5, another vet dies inflicting 1hp, another vet dies redlining a new rifle. Elite cav retreats against 2/3 rifle, now a cav is showing. Elite cav loses 2, but kills him, and we get Kublai! [dance] But I am out of attackers, and he has one redlined rifle left. I move our center army over to cover the wounded, (move 4 is nice). Near Ngome a vet cav kills a 3/4 cav, getting promoted, and gets onto a mountain. Rest of my moves are covers, use muskets en route to Carthage to try and block the Celts, but with ROP they can go around the city. I also push a couple muskets up to cover Kublai as he moves back toward Ngome to build an army.
IBT Celts move around, as I thought. More naval activity, bombards take 3hp off the center army (12/16). Vet cav attacks our new elite on the mountain, and dies without scratching us. Near Carthage, one cav kills a musket covering wounded, losing 1, and another kills a 2/4 cav, also losing 1. I get nervous as 3 ships approach the coast near Ulaangom, only to drop off one cav. Four more ships set sail out of Carthage.
Richbourough Cav-cav, Rusicade goes into disorder as two resistors are quelled, Tosont cannon-cannon.

960AD (9) Carthage – start with a vet cav vs. unfortified vet rifle, retreats with no damage. Army (12/16) attacks, loses 10hp but kills him. Elite cav retreats vs. regular rifle causing 1hp, 5/19 Army attacks, kills him but down to 1hp! Conscript on top. Kublai forms an army, and I load the 4 cav available in Ngome, two of them wounded (not optimal, I know, but I wanted to finish him off). This army, now at 13/19, attacks and kills the conscript, but there is another. I now move to cover wounded, pull the decimated armies out of Carthage territory to heal, and regroup. Also, the eastern army is moved over to cover our new army. Arvayheer is founded on the west coast near the iron, connecting the road, so I can move reinforcements faster. I use some cav to block the celts, and be ready to attack Carthage next turn. Kill landed cav near Ulaangom, losing 2hp.
IBT Celts and Carthage ally vs. Greece! (Not a smart move for the Celts). 3 of 5 bombards succeed against my armies near Carthage. A cav moves out, loses 1hp to my zone of control, then kills a blocking cav, losing another hp. More landings near Ulaangom, a total of 5 cav land this turn (from about 15 ships! Each one came with a galleon and 2-3 frigates). That could be tricky, we have a lot of workers around, and mnost towns only have warriors.
Tatu Cav-cav, Tabriz cav-cav, Rusicade restores order, Tseter cav-cav, two more palace expansions, the people love us! We are now back to +81gpt as our deal expires, and I don’t renew the ROP with Greece, I will leave that for the next leader (I do gracefully trade maps, though, so as not to leave Alex feeling rejected).

970AD (10) The final push on Carthage. First army again faces a vet rifle, unfortified, he is whipping defenders. Both Carthage and Greece are in Fascism. (also no rails yet that I can see). Anyway, first army takes out top defender, losing 1hp, then takes out a conscript, also losing 1. Second army takes on 2 conscripts, losing 2hp, then kills a wounded cav, and finally with the fourth attack kills a redlined cav, and Carthage is ours. I keep it, because of the Pyramids, but I’m not sure how long we can hold it. In hindsight, Pyramids aren’t much help for us, as most of our towns are already maxing in pop, but I was also worried about the Celt settler grabbing the ivory. We should be able to starve it or whip it down pretty quickly once the resistance ends. I just pray it doesn’t flip this next turn, as the army moved in after the last attack. I push a musket and cav to help cover, but I don’t dare risk a second army in the city. A 3/4 cav kills a redlined cav in the open. More covering moves, I maintain the blockade on the Celt settler and the 1hp and 2hp armies rest to heal, covered by two muskets and a couple cannon. I have a stack of 6 cannon parked on a hill overlooking Utica, which seems to have at least 1 vet and 3 regular rifles, covered by a musket and a couple cav, I pulled the army from there to Carthage. I move some new cavs toward the beachhead, but could only attack with 2 cavs this turn, better to put them in towns and make him come at me than leave them in the open. The stack of 5 can threaten Ulaangom or Gades this turn, Ulaan has a musket, spear, cav, and a 2/4 cav. Gades has a vet cav, warrior, and a cannon. There are 3 more cav that are in range to help next turn, but depending on where he moves, the number of potential targets can grow quickly. It is time for a Feudal Draft, and I double-whip cavs in Kazan, Choybasaln, and Almarikh, as they are close enough to get to the threatened cities next turn. I check with Hannibal again, Physics for peace is doubtful, but the price has come down, 250g vs. 750g a couple turns ago. We still have one turn on the alliance, though.
The Beachhead

Just when Justus Khan was ready for the peaceful transition of power, however, he invoked a little-known clause in our Feudal Charter for extraordinary powers in times of war, or at least when the heartland is in danger, with the mystic phrase “one more turn!”.
(I hate to hand the game to someone with all those cav in our backyard, not to mention our four armies with less than 15hp between them and on the front lines. If something BAD happens, I would rather it be on my watch).
IBT Celts back off, only a couple frigates bombard our blocking troops (at least one was in Carthage when it fell). Cav attacks a musket moving to the cannons near Utica, and the musket wins, losing 3hp but promoting. Cav Marines focus on Ulaangom (good), first dies to our musket, no losses. Second retreats, inflicting 2. Third loses an hp but kils our vet cav. Fourth kills the spear, and promotes. Fifth kills the musket, but loses 2, and the town holds, with a 2/4 cav remaining. They have all went into the jungle. No counters near Carthage!
Kazan Cav-cav, Almarikh cav-cav, Choy cav-cav, resistance ends in Rusicade, Nalyah worker-musket. Our people improve the palace yet again, they love the sound of the

980AD (11) Attacks on the Cav Marines does not go well. First vet cav vs. elite, inflict 1hp but our cav dies. Second vet kills him, loses 1hp. Third vet cav vs. 3/4 cav dies, causing 2hp. Fourth cav attacks 2/4 cav, dies, causing 1hp but promoting him. Fifth cav attacks 2/5 cav, killing him but losing 1hp. Another cav attacks and dies, and there are two redlined enemy cav left. At least they are in the jungle, and I have units on the road, so they can’t hit anything valuable next turn, and should be easy pickings. However, I think the cav losses were enough to kick in the next level of War Weariness (I seem to also remember something about losses in your own territory). Anyway, even after building Ondorhaan, connecting the ivory, several cities need entertainers and lux is back up to 30%. Could also be from pulling MPs around, but even towns away from the hot spot are having problems. On the northern front, I just adjust coverage, pull the army out of Carthage and back to our new ivory town to heal in safety. Many units are fortified and haven’t moved, but some have moved back to a city to heal, so check before you move anyone.

The Northern Front

I check again on the peace status, and in making the rounds, it turns out the Celts have Physics. Great news for us, because they still lack banking and Metallurgy, which I trade for Physics and a worker (like I need more of them right now, but we will). Now I can get a better idea of what’s on the table. Greece needs Saltpeter, and would sell us both ToG and Magnetism for Gems, Salt, 1300g + 25gpt. Magnetism alone goes for Salt, Gems and 50 gold. ToG is similar. Hannibal still wont give a tech for peace, but the discount is steep, we can get either ToG of Magnetism for 40gpt. Both would cost quite a bit more, as our discount is used up on one, and we pay full price for the second. Total for both is 1000g + 70gpt.

However, either of these would lock us into peace for 20 turns, which may or may not be a good thing, if they stay in fascism fighting each other. Also, still no signs of rails yet. Either way, the choice is up to the next leader. Regardless, our alliance with Alex is up this turn, so we need to end it, or renegotiate it, we are currently paying 16gpt for the privilege. If that invasion fleet is his big push from his subcontinent, we can probably handle it, but might want to keep more forces back for the second trip when those ships reload and return. Utica is probably takeable once the armies have healed, actually with all four working together, any city is takeable. Cannons are already at Utica. There are also 3 Knights templar near Hadrumentum, I was trying to create a distraction and draw some counters into the hills, they can also pillage his remaining two ivory in a couple turns. If not for the war weariness, I would say press on, buy the techs we need from Greece and hope to pull Steam out of a later peace deal. However, with our WW going up, and them both in Fascism, a break might not be a bad idea. I’m not sure how their research will progress from here. Anyway, with the Homeland Security crisis past, Justus Khan finally steps down, waiting to see who will be next to pick up the and

Grab the Game!

 

[Charis]

Carthage is plucked from the bosom of the Carthaginians... is that the sound of a back snapping??!

I like the fact that you took one more to clean up and to get us right to the end of the treaty, and especially that you left the choice of war or peace up to next leader
As you said, it's a tough call. I'm prone to NOT let a civ off the hook once it's gassed, because it's SO painful to gas someone as large as Carthage. OTOH balance of power is delicate. Greeks will likely swallow Celts and if Carthage is hit TOO bad there will be no balance to keep them in check. It seems we want to inflict enough pain on Carthage so that if we do need to come back at them, resistance will be futile, but perhaps not gut them so bad that they provide only 'cities' not attacks when we ally with them vs the Greeks (which, despite our current war and alliance, we WILL do at some point - in fact we could get a three-way dogpile on Alex now?! :eel: )

Techs should be of no concern whatsoever - make war decisions based on military goals. The science advisor is a eunuch and the mil advisor is 'da man' this game! In fact, for military reasons, if Greeks lack salt, I would **NOT** give it to them (much less for something as wienie as Magnetism), but would take this short-lived opportunity and crush them. Greece may be a tough nut but with zero offense, we can crack it. Look at the minimap and it's clear they need to be trimmed.

Alas, if we had this goal, razing rather than taking the Pyramids would have been the move, and our stopping point. As you said they're useless to us but best not to fall in enemy hands, and we don't have many defenders.

The more I look at the situation, the more I like war with Greece, and sending the armies east for a flank attack. Probably would: cancel alliance, take discount on tech and peace with Carthage, then take 0 to 2 turns getting units into position for attack on Greece, then ally with both Carthage and Celts -- this next battle will definitely be for 20 turns! If taking ONE more city like Utica makes sense first while newly made cav head to Greek border, that would be good too.

I would like to take it next and will play tonight (but if someone has a better plan or the day off, speak up with your battle plan )

Charis

 

[Grimjack]

I would agree with your second opinion here Charis, that in this case, we would want to prune Greece before they grow to big. If they lack Salt, so much the better, as it iwll mean we can prune them faster when their counters are limited.
Considering they have been warring for some time against Carthage, I suspect their supplies of cavalry is severely limited.

Carthage is broken, and as long as they do not sign peace with Greece, they will continue to stay broken.

Whack Greece, and sweep this continent of the dregs of other nations.

Grimjack

 

[Justus II]

Turning on Greece sounds good to me also, without Steam I'm in no hurry for the Industrial Age, besides, we're Feudal, the Middle Ages is OUR age! The armies need another turn or so to heal. As for Carthage, I thought about that afterwards, because it is also a flip risk. My thought was when resistance ends, whip a settler, which should drop population to 1 (I was going to whip workers in Rusicade for the same reason). Not to abandon, but just to speed up the starve-down process.

 

[Grimjack]

As long as it doesn't flip with our armies in it, it would merely be inconvenient. Sooner or later, and most probably sooner, our armies will be back to visit again.

Grimjack

 

[Justus II]

Armies are out of their cities, I didn't want to risk that either! I have tried to keep only 2-3 units as garrison in the captured cities, usually a musket and a couple cav for healing. Sulcis and Ngome are already down to 1 pop, and have clear borders, so flip risk should be reduced, but Carthage and Rusicade are still pushing against borders, and need to be watched. But you're right, retaking either would be easy, and that would give our next leader the option to raze Carthage if needed/desired. Taking and razing Utica might help relieve some cultural pressure if we do keep the other two, cannons are in place but the armies would need another turn to heal.

 

[Charis]

Temujin Charis finds all the real generals off at war against Carthage,
and so has no competition in the archery contest, which he wins to come
to power. (BTW, We're all using v1.15 here, right?)

Looking more closely at the map now, Carthage is STILL top in power though we
have gained much. Our military is still weak compared to Carthage, and average
to Greeks. So despite the thirst for blood exhibited, we actually need to press
on a bit more vs Carthage. However this turn will be played fully expecting to
turn the tables on the alliance within 20 turns - could be 1, could be 19,
but the Greeks are next, and they will have no warning. I don't like much the
terrain gaps at the Carthage-Mongol border, but don't really want to waste much
time on settlers. If the AI builds settlers instead of military that's good too.
Our allowed unit count is 223 (yowza!) and current count is 149, so we don't need
any more cities to support the cause. Fortunately, Thermopylae is NOT at all far from
us! It could be taken in as few as two cities, with Delphi in the path.
Looking at a reasonable objective for the next campaign, Athens would be nice
to raze, as it houses several obsolete wonders. Delphi, Thermopylae, Athens (razed),
Herakleia, Thessalonika, and Marathon. That's a good 10-15 turn objective with
army support against a nation without salt. Alas, we'll definitely need the armies
to pull that off. Unless we see a pause (unlikely) the best way to bring the armies
to bear would be to sweep across -- raze Utica, capture Hadramentum, then start the
Greek war with capture of Hlobane (which has saltpeter RIGHT THERE!), at same time
hit Ulundi with cav from South, and move units up to Marathon and Delphi. Capture
each of those, raze Thessalonica, capture Thermopylae, raze Ephesus, capture
Herakleia and finish the war by razing Athens. (If they're soft as butter, Sparta)

For this we need many cav to cut down loose attackers, use the armies to take cities,
and a smaller number of muskets to hold the cities once taken. Just looking at the
big map, I like the military nature of the build queues, although I don't think we
need so many cannons. Number of turns left in game I would estimate as 60-80, so
slower builds like a courthouse in 40 won't cut it either.

[0] 980 AD - Whip temple in Entremont. Turn Carthage and other captured city clowns
to taxmen, whip Alesia's market. About five other non-productive cities are multi-
whipped for a musket or cav, and seven more make a list for this turn. Hit enter...

BTW, we have 9 turns of peace left with Greeks due to a wine deal. If
opportunity requires breaking that, so be it, otherwise I'm looking at a 9 turn
time frame to whittle away the Carthaginians and prepare to swap targets to Greece.

IBT - Defenses at Carthage were too small, and it's retaken. I'm kinda happy -
I wanted that city razed rather than tie up a half dozen top defenders.
Greeks ask mid-turn about the alliance fee, and I decline. When Alex calls peace
vs the Carthaginians, next turn he shall find war declared on him.

[1] 990 - All four cav armies must heal this round. Hmmm, no, Carthage has almost
no defence, why give them a chance? One heads out, kill rifle, and cav, and
Carthage is RAZED. Normal vet troops assault Utica. R, W, W, W, W, and as we're
about to raze Utica I see a golden dome... tis home of the Sistine Chapel?!
Now is that worth keeping? Normally, Pyramids, Lighthouse, and Chapel are suberb,
but for us with size 6 and no cathedrals, tis USELESS, and so we stick with the plan
and RAZE Utica and the Chapel. (Last thing we need would be for that to flip or
worse, for Greeks to get a hold of it) 8 workers netted too.
Just in case, a second cav hits nearby units and covers the first.
Nalayh gets quad-whipped for a vet cav, just because they dare question the
brutality of the new general!

IBT - Phew, cav attacks our elite musket, redlines it, and loses. Cav attacks
our elite crusader on hill, redlines it, loses We watch Greek and Carthage
cav trade shots - and in the end the Greeks created a Carthage MGL (!) but then
kill it (phew!)

[2] 1000 - Movement... shifting east. One army returns to rax city, other moves
to cover stack advancing on Habra, two others take another round for full heal.
Or do they... 12 hps seems enough, and I can hit Habramentum NOW. We do so,
kill three rifles and one bow, and the city is... ours. Back home, the whip
is cracked in celebration.

IBT - Celts-Carthage embargo ends. Privateers chew up Greek Caravels.
Carthage moves against our crusader stack outside Hadramentum and finally gets them.
They land more than one cav in our backfield - at Baruun-Urt, four in fact.
Doh! That's tight, if they landed one more ship we would lose a city or three.
As it is, the new ones made whipped and the lone (oops, yes, lone) zone defender
are an even match.

[3] 1010 - The frenzy continues (if we're going to take advantage of
Feudalism properly, this is part of the game plan, and small size corrupt cities
do well with this)

We found Saynshand in Eastern part of a gap, Western part soon founded at
Our WM must be out of date, it costs us 68g to trade it with Greeks. Hlobane's
saltpeter is NOT hooked up still (good), although there is a railroad NEXT to it.
Hmm, actually, the salt is in neutral territory!

Time to hit the Carthage cav outside Hadra, two elites roll and on second one,
a great leader with a crazy name arises... Mongke?!
ANOTHER Army is built and is stuffed with Cav. So much the worse for Alex
Then, get this... elite wins, a fourth elite runs at open space cav... MGL #2,
OGODE! Back he runs to town too. Vet cav loses, and crusader finishes off the cav.

Finally, homeland defense. Gah, it doesn't go as well as hoped. Loss, loss, win,
win, that will leave two to attack our towns. They're in hill country though, so
I can run an extra warrior that will save the town even if it dies.
IBT They retreat then beat a warrior, good enough. A close call back home.

[4] 1020 - Back at Baruun-Urt, fresh vet cav goes after hurt one, redlines, wins.
Elite cav goes after 1hp cav and... wins. I'm leaving about 4-5 more units back
home now. If they were any smarter on naval assault that could have been brutal.

Six more cities get whipped, a few multiple times.

We're not half-way thru the nine turns, and we've done what we wanted for setup
already - Carthage and Utica gone, Hadra captured, and SODs in position to flank
Delphi, Ulundi and Marathon (to some degree). Carthage is finally "average" to us
We have just this turn surpassed them in power
The Celts are down to 2 cities! We could as our last move on Carthage, raze
Sabratha now, taking their ivory. The armies are there, let's rock!

Fresh army kills two, pillaging ivory en route. Second army kills rifle and
longbow and razes Sabratha. Half-filled army runs next to Hlonbane to camp on
the saltpeter. Another full army heads to camp outside Ulundi. Does Alex smell
anything coming??

IBT - Not a trace of movement seen besides Privateer outside Lindum. Gas??
Rifle-settler move OFF iron onto adjacent hill.

We hit loose cav east of Ondor and win. In doing so, see rifle-settler about to
settle on iron hill.

[5] 1030 - Hmm, the Celts are likely to settle that spot.
Whoa, as I consider going to raze Theveste, a double take of the minimap shows that
Carthage really is crippled already on this continent. It's time to end their pain,
and even more units pull back and head toward Greece.

IBT Cav runs from fog to snag a few workers, but we'll recapture immediately.

[6] 1040 - Lapardum expands, to the peril of Delphi. We found Tumentsogt NE of Russadir.
Movement, and a fair amount. There are now...
TWO cav armies outside Hlobane, one outside Ulundi, one outside Marathon,
one outside Delphi, one healing in Ngome, and a mini-SOD outside Delphi.
Temujin Charis' finger is on the trigger... Alex! Pull my finger!!!
Mil Academy due in 4 as well. Carthage will of course talk but... omg, doubtful
for Magnetism?!? Sheeeeeeesh! He only lives by the mercy of Temujin the peaceful!!
IBT - NADA.

[7] 1050 - More movement. IBT - Nothing.
IBT - Nothing.
[8] 1060 - Same. IBT - Same. ONE turn left on deal with Alex.

[9] 1070 - It's TIME! We cancel the purchase of wine for 35gpt from Greece.
No treaty is on, so we talk to Carthage. What discount can we get for last two techs
of the age? Peace, and Military Alliance vs Greeks gets close to deal for one tech,
and for both, must throw in 86gpt. Let's hope we can recoup some selling him
horses or iron or a lux after this deal is complete. Wow, lowered to 59gpt if I
throw in a trade embargo. The trigger is pulled, we're at war with Greece.
Hmm, will Hannibal sell us Steam Power? For Iron, Horses, and about 100gpt? Eep,
no thanks, that's far more than steal price. If we sell Iron and Horses, they can pay
34gpt and no more (where DID that gpt go??!) Instead I sell just Iron for 28gpt.
Brennus is so thrilled at the thought of us joining him in the war, he pays
Monarchy and Literature and all his 16g.

Wowza, weariness was non-trivial! After losing the wines it seemed I would need
40% lux, but now 0% lux is just FINE - not a single sad city and I can fire many
clowns. I suppose the centuries of Carthage bloodletting didn't sit well with
the masses?!

So income is +174gpt, much more than expected. If next leader wanted we COULD
buy Steam Power. With that income, and Carthage relying on us, I try to steal
the overpriced Nationalism and succeed. Anyway... here we go!

Delphi... Army kills top rifle, taking a lot of punishment. Vet cav redlines next
rifle but then dies. Nothing else comes up? That's all? Elite cav rides in and...
wins! Delphi is ours! A huge stack plus army moves up to Marathon for next turn.
(If Greece had a huge cav reserve, we would be slaughtered)

Ulundi... Army steps into their land and kills one, two... three. Boo, one left.
The other army was in between cities, and so hits here. One rifle dead and the
city is ours. We're capturing these second ring cities and will probably only
raze Thessalonica, Ephesus, and Athens. Thermopylae is our 'must capture' objective.

Hlobane... Army only needs to kill two rifles to take the city. We capture it.
Marathon we cannot touch this turn, and is a *critical* city for both sides.

IBT - Nervously we hit enter... ZERO ATTACKS!! Not even much defense movement on
rails??? Allying with Greece recently vs Carthage was critical. They're nearly
gassed, and whatever troops they do have they'll throw at much more weakly
defended Carthage! Woohoo!

[10] 1080 - Military Academy completes in Karakorum. Now our six armies are cooking
with gas! The people are so glad, they expand the palace. What does Carthage do?
They start working on Shakespeare's Theatre!

At Marathon we start with our mini-SOD to draw fire. Retreat, lose, win, retreat.
Next the army kills two rifles, then elite cav on longbow. We win and capture
the city. (I hope one of these has a rax soon!)

Outside Hlobane an army pillages several tiles, cutting off NW Greece from railnet.

While I'm *SORELY* tempted to 'press on' and 'clean up' and 'even out years',
I might not have the self-control to stop before Athens! I don't think there's
much if any IBT danger, so it's a fine time to hand off. I'm rather glad I didn't
hit Greece in anger on turn 1, the preparation achieved in the nine turns while the
deal expired has made up for a crushing attack.

Comments:
- There's an army next to Zimbabwe, probably raze it next turn. Swing down, capture Perg
- There's army and SOD next to Thessalonica. Raze it.
This same group should capture and keep Thermopylae.
- There's 1-2 combat settlers coming up. Use as needed, or perhaps
settle on the chokepoint hill as a good defense spot plus take cultural
pressure off Thermopylae.
- After that's held, raze Ephesus and swing up to Athens, RAZING it.
- Herakleia, Mycenae, Sparta, Corinth, raze at will, or capture if you think safe.
- Please don't throw armies away carelessly just because we have so many
That means don't let them sit TOO much in cities. Greeks' culture is extreme.
- If they haven't mounted a defense by the time Athens is razed, they never
will. The armies can probably conquer Greece in 25 turns, then swing left and
conquer Celts and Carthage in no more than 20. No rush though
- Don't let off the war for any reason. Finish this puppy before factories, hospitals,
and especially infantry


The new view of our lands...

Ex-Carthage core:

Soon to-be-Ex-Greek core:

Grab da game!

RBC5 Save file 1080AD for the next shooter!

Charis

 

[Grimjack]

Heh, hard time stopping Charis when he smells gas/blood ...

Grimjack.

 

[Justus II]

Posted by Charis:
Nalayh gets quad-whipped for a vet cav, just because they dare question the
brutality of the new general!

Charis:

Quick question about RBCiv rules, is 'short-rushing' or partial rushing allowed? I assume that to quad-whip, you would have to change production to something cheaper, whip, then switch production to musket, whip, then cav, whip or something, as I don't remember Nalyah being that big of a city. I thought about doing something like that in Rusicade, to get a musket IIRC, but wasn't sure if it is considered an exploit or if it is OK, so I didn't, then forgot to ask about it. After re-reading the RBCiv rules, I don't see any statement on it. I'm not usually pop-rushing this late in the game anyway, so I haven't had it come up that often.

 

[Charis]

Short rushing and multi-whipping are fine, as you're not getting anything extra, other than saving a turn on occasion. That "would cause the loss of too many lives" is non-sense, and the unhappiness penalty of a multiply-whipped city is fair. Good question though, and here are two other points:

- Short rushing in the OLD DAYS was a major exploit, when the game rounded down 39 shields to 1 life. Short rushing by swapping to a lesser unit would then get you 79 shields for the cost of only two people (with a one turn wait in the middle). They 'fixed' this, and drastically cut the value of pop-rushing, when they dropped the round down so that 19 or 20 shields was 1 life, 21-40 was 2, etc.

- There were other problems where you could whip a city infinitely many times and avoid the happiness problems. To my knowledge this is no longer an issue.

- Why on EARTH would anybody choose Feudalism if they didn't make moderate use of pop-rushing? In that era, nothing of value can be had for less than 40-80 shields, and you can't use that excess cash (from having no mil support) to rush anything. The WW in Feudalism is much higher than I expected, as I saw when I stopped the aggression vs Carthage. In this game we didn't rush TOO much early on, but I was using it as a end-of-game accelerator -- with about 50 turns left in the game we're free to ignore longer-term consequences of our unhappiness and city downsizing. Also, in this particular game, we artificially restricted our city size to make the most out of our government, and this dovetailed nicely with the extra unhappiness we could handle due to rushing.

So short rushing and captured city starving are highly effective and 'dastardly' (in a nice guy sense) but not exploits.

I would do the same in Communism and Fascism for sure if there were corrupt cities that would not ever be productive. (Under the new communism, we have yet to see how many cities that will be!) What I would NOT do in a longer duration game is whip our FP-ring cities that given more love and attention, and police station, would one day have become 'usefully' productive. (It was fortunate for them that they were being whipped when that smal cav stack landed, although leaving more zone defense troops back home would have been smarter)

In any case... it should be fun to see what happens to Greece over the next player turn(s)!

Charis

 

[Dwip]

Seizing the day, I'll post my "got it" while I can.

 

[Dwip]

[0] 1080 AD - And lo, it was time for another Ghengis Dwip military turn. And the people were much afraid. But Ghengis Dwip spoke unto them, saying "You DO realize we have freakin' enormous cav armies like, everywhere, right?" And the people saw the truth of this and were less afraid.

We are, for some reason, 50 turning Fascism. Since we can't use it, I toss us over to Steam Power instead. I doubt we'll need either, but we might as well.

(IBT) - Alex moves a bunch of rifles.

[1] 1090 AD - The assault on Zimbabwe:

Army vs vet rifle, lose 4 hp, win.
Army vs vet rifle, lose 5 hp, win. Vet rifle still on top.

Bring up the army by Ulundi, continue.

Army vs vet rifle, lose 2 hp, win. Capture Ye Olde Gigantic Worker Cache.

A third army mops up some Greek rifles.

Hrm. We have a regular cav. How cute. He should be perfect for Pergamon.

Reg Cav vs Vet Rifle, knock off 1 hp, retreat.
Elite Cav vs Vet Rifle, knock off 1 hp, die. Grrrr. Looks like only 2 defenders, though.
Army vs 3 hp Rifle, lose 4 hp and win. 1 defender left. Next turn there will be...three. Erk. Still, it's not quite worth it to attack, with three more armies ready next turn.

So we move to Thessalonica.

Vet Cav vs Vet Rifle, knock off 2 hp, retreat.
Vet Cav vs Vet Rifle, knock off 1 hp, die.
Vet Cav vs Reg Rifle, lose 1 hp, win.
Vet Cav vs 3hp Rifle, retreat.
Army vs 3hp Rifle, lose 7 hp (!), win. Die, SuperRifle! Die!
Vet Cav vs 2hp Rifle, knock off 1 hp, die. Sheesh.
Vet Cav vs 1hp Rifle, die, promote. WTH?
Army vs 2hp Rifle, lose 3 hp, win. Longbow is best defender. I leave it to save the army.

(IBT) - A LOT of Greek rifles and such come boiling out of nowhere. Our 4 hp army is now at 2 hp.

[2] 1100 AD - Unfortified in grasslands SuperRifle II knocks off something like 12 hp of our 14 hp army, who in stunned silence retreats to go heal.

Among other things a lot of armies beat up some rifles at stunningly awful loss rates and retreat to go heal. Also, a random crusader tosses itself in the way of a very dangerous rifle, and beats it up. Whatever.

As I really need a rax somewhere, Delphi rushes one.

[3] 1110 AD - Vast, vast amounts of healing. Use a couple Crusaders to good effect against wounded rifles.

(IBT) - Whoops. Fortunately, most of the troops were out of it. But still.

[3] 1120 AD - Whyever Ulundi got 2 rifles, they're gone now. Too, whyever all those 1 hp Greek rifles were on that mountain, they're gone now too. Plus a few other ones, just because I could.

All things considered, I'm thrilled at Lindum's continued existance.

Marathon rushes a temple, because I don't like all those Greeks kicking around.

(IBT) - Wherever Carthage is going with their 20 odd galleons, there sure are a lot of them.

[4] 1130 AD - And here we go. Thessalonica, Part II.

Army vs Vet Rifle: Win, lose 1 hp.
Army vs Conscript Rifle: Win, lose 4 hp.
Vet Cav vs Vet Lbow: Win.

And that's that. Finally, a city goes down on my turn. Sheesh. Just for good measure, I toss a newly fully healed cav army into the gap.

(IBT) - In an amazing display of military prowess for the AI, he uses his trapped rifles on the front lines to kill a cav, steal the couple of workers and a cannon I accidentally left there, and retreat into his own territory. Very humanish of it.

No, really. Carthage. What's up?

[5] 1140 AD - After some assorted skirmishing, it's time for the first push on Thermopylae.

Army vs Vet Rifle: Lose 2 hp, win.
Army vs Vet Rifle: Lose 7 hp, win at the last 4 rounds. Streaks? What streaks?
Army vs Vet Rifle: Lose 3 hp, win. Vet rifle as best defender. We'll give it one more try.
Army vs Vet Rifle: Lose 7 hp, win. We now own Thermopylae and...

You may be asking yourself at this point: "How on Earth does he plan to hold that?

Good question. I do at least get the armies out before moving in a bunch of flip supression types.

Found Atlay on the Carthage border to plug the hole.

(IBT) - Lots of rioting as we get all war weary and such as that. Bah.

And every time I see a crusader win on defense against a rifle, it makes me laugh. And there's more of that going on than you might know.

For the curious, the Celts are down to Isca now, way over by us and Carthage.

[6] 1150 AD - Well, let's see how Pergamon's doing these days, shall we?

Army vs Vet Rifle: Win.
Army vs Vet Rifle: Win, lose 2 hp.

Er, sorry Alex. You weren't, uh, using Pergamon for anything, were you? Oh you were? Terribly sorry.

And now, for some more mop-up at Ephesus.

Vet Cav vs Vet Rifle: Win, lose 3 hp.
Vet Cav vs Reg Rifle: Die, promote. Suck.
Vet Cav vs Vet Rifle: Win, lose 2 hp, promote.
Elite Cav vs Reg Lbow:

Woot. Jochi runs over to Thermopylae to become a cav army.

(IBT) - Greece and the Celts go to peace. Carthage and Greece go to peace, too. Well, that's fun.

Carthage declares war on us? Er...

Our people are, apparently, totally unfazed by this new development. Except for the MASSIVE war weariness hits. And I mean MASSIVE.

[7] 1160 AD - The plan: Put enough troops on Carthage to keep them bottled up, and finish slamming our way through Greece. New cav production should suffice for this.

(IBT) - Not a lot of threatning moves yet.

[8] 1170 AD - Well, here we go.

Army vs Vet Rifle: Lose 10 hp, win. Ow.
Army vs Vet Rifle: Lose 8 hp, win. More ow.
Army vs Vet Rifle: Lose 4 hp, win. Whatever. Regular rifle is best defender.
Army vs Reg Rifle: Lose 2 hp, win.
Army vs Reg Rifle: Lose 3 hp, win, promote.
Army vs Ref Rifle: Lose 5 hp, win. 2 hp elite as best defender. I wonder...
Vet Cav vs 2 hp Rifle: Win. Vet Cav is best defender.

And I'm out of troops with movement, so Athens lives for another day. Soon, however. Soon.

[9] 1180 AD - Oh look, they brought in a brand new vet rifle. I brought in a brand new fully healed cav army, so I guess that's fair.

Army vs Vet Rifle: Win, lose 1 hp.
Army vs Reg Rifle: Win, lose 1 hp.
Army vs Vet Cav: Win, lose 1 hp.
Army vs Consc Rifle: Win, lose 1 hp.
Vet Cav vs Consc Rifle: Win.

Athens burns in the fire. [plasma]

So do some Carthaginian rifles, for that matter.

(IBT) - Oh look, they still have a few...regular...rifles.

[10] 1190 AD - We try for Heraklia. We haven't got many troops in the area, but we have a few.

Vet Cav vs Vet Rifle: Lose, no damage.
Vet Cav vs Vet Rifle: Win, lose 3 hp, promote.
Army vs Vet Rifle: Win, lose 5 hp.
Elite Cav vs 2 hp Cav, win.

Burn, baby, burn! [plasma]

And I'm going to take one more turn to round out the years.

Too, I mass upgrade a bunch of muskets to rifles because I can and because it may well become important in about a turn.

(IBT) - Not to mention the MANY Carthaginian rifles what attacked at Atlay just now, and the random Greek horde which appeared out of nowhere by Ulundi.

[11] 1200 AD - Lots of cav action. Army battles near Atlay and Ulundi. Still giant stacks near both. It may be that we'll need to make peace with the Greeks soon in order to wipe Carthage from the map. But first, one last attempt.

Army vs Vet Rifle: Lose 9 hp, win.
Vet Cav vs Vet Rifle: Knock off 1 hp, lose.
Vet Cav vs Vet Rifle: Knock off 1 hp, retreat.
Vet Cav vs 3 hp Rifle: Retreat.
Vet Cav vs 3 hp Rifle: Knock off 1 hp, retreat.
Vet Cav vs 3 hp Rifle: Lose.
Elite Cav vs 3 hp Rifle: Lose 3 hp, win.
Elite Cav vs 2 hp Rifle: Lose 3 hp, win.

Mycenae burns in the fire. [plasma]

And there we are. The Greeks are in a LOT of hurt. They have a decent amount of troops in the field, but they're not going to be able to replace them without a core.

Carthage has recuperated. They're throwing troops at us right now, and I'm content to let them do it.

Be Aware:

There are many, many Greek troops near Ulundi. In the neighborhood of 10 or 15 rifles at last count, and a couple of cav. It's almost certain Ulundi is going down. Marathon and Hlobane may or may not, but be aware of it.

There's a wounded army as the top unit in Atlay, and about 4 Carthaginian rifles going to attack next turn. This worked out ok last turn, but you may want to evac the army.

There's an enormous Carthaginian fleet off our northwest coast. Probably we're about to lose a lot of road.

There's a wounded army near Delphi with 1 move left. I'd leave it there. Our other armies are mostly near Thermopylae on the Greek frontier. One just obliterated Mycenae, three more are by Thermo itself, and a fourth is a bit south. All are sitting and healing.

Check the cities. I haven't, and they may riot. A new scientist on Steam Power might not hurt, either.

There are left-over combat settlers next to Delphi.


So, who wants to Save Ulundi?