RBC6 - Scrappy Sumerians (C3C Demi SG)

[Kylearan]

Yes!!! Finally the Iros get what they deserve: Humilation, pain and later, extinction! Way to go, Speaker!

Nice picture illustrating your killing zone, by the way.

> Since they have not built barracks ( ), nearly all of their troops are regulars

Am I mistaken or is that even worse in C3C than in PTW? I used to be annoyed by the lack of vet enemy units before, but can't remember it being that bad.

I see how improving the AI would be nearly impossible when it comes to using terrain to its advantage, or recognizing and using/defending weak spots, but prioritizing barracks, especially for militaristic civs, cannot be too hard to implement, can it?


Another question: What is our stance on all the patches? Do we always install the latest one, or do we wait until it has been tested by others first?

-Kylearan

 

[Grimjack]

Great job team. I nice setup followed by a good hammering.

Almost a schoolbook example of how to lure out and eliminate an obnoxious AI.

Grimjack

 

[Charis]

While our military advisor tells us our army is weak compared to the Iroquois,
he has not read the reports of the northern skirmishes with General Speaker!!
27 allowed units and 77 actualy, yowza! We're still mid-Golden Age though I don't
think much of it is left, and we're in Republic. (Econ problems when it ends)
We're also at war with Hittites (we ARE scrappy, aren't we?!) Great job on
35spt GA for Ur.

Looking at the map, if Iro was weaker in military, my idea of a perfect outcome
to this turn would be to clear out our backyard totally, and on the front press
forward thru four Iro cities and take Allegheny, settle Panama City on the chokepoint.
Hiawatha is clueless at the peace table, offering nothing, so he is so NOT getting
off the hook yet! Same deal for Mursi. Our army is 13 Enkidu, 13 MDI, 1 Knight,
7 Pike, 5 horse, 4 sword.

[0] 350 - Couple of minor queue swaps, Chondote to CTH, Erich uses a forest instead
of irrig grass since we're in GA. Sumer is one shield shy of Knight, and I long
for something bigger. We can swap to FP for placeholder and Theology is due
in 6, wouldn't Sistine be lovely?!

Am I wrong to think we can/should advance toward Kahnawake now? I hit the
longbow and advance stack onto there.

IBT Speaker did call it, an MDI hits us there and wins, but he's red and toast.
Hittites drop two old units near Tippecanoe.

[1] 360 - Add a worker to Kish but unhappiness means there will be no benefit from that
yet. MDI beats spear then elite horse fishes vs that 1hp MDI. We win, but no fish.
Move alot more troops toward cities.
IBT was rough (it's worse when YOU'RE the one moving of course), 3 losses for us.
Hittites land another spear-settler pair.

[2] 370 - Fishing time on the spear. Oops, not settler but longbow. Still, we win 2.
Elite horse vs longbow. Win but no fish bite. Knight beats pike w/o dmg at
Tyendenaga. They have a pike and spear about to enter the city, so let's hit it
hard now. Elite horse attacks and...

The great leader Lugalzaggesi appears, but I just call him "Tyler"!
Can you say Knight army?! I can! Tyler goes to Tippecano and forms an army.
Other elite horse sees only a longbow left to defend, and springs into action.
He shoots... he scores! The city is ours! Not enough attackers at Kahn, so we
move more up and hang.

IBT No attacks?! A pike coming up to defend Tyenda pillages a road. Two pikes
next to Kahn LEAVE and go the other way? Two units step out into open? One knight
moves into visible range but can't reach us. If more Knights show up it could
spell trouble.

[3] 380 - Down south Iro had landed a new Pike-settler pair. Horse hurts him and
our MDI finishes him. Outside new Tyen we have two retreats on hurt units in
open before winning, then beat a third. Too many troops heading to Kahn, let's
hit them now. L,W,R,W,W(prom) and that's it, tis our city. Around it,
MDI beats spear, MDI beats Pike, MDI beats Knight

IBT - Ow, a strong counterattack, but not at Kahn. Rather, at Tyne.
Starts with a loss and retreat, but then three wins.

[4] 390 - Lets get those loose Iro cannons, with Elite when we can.
Sword beats 1hp knight, Elite horse beats 1hp knight, but will likely die.
WW has kicked up a notch. We hit a few in open and otherwise hole up.
IBT just a horse lost. Hitties land a few ancient troops.

[5] 400 - Action around Tyen. Elite horse retreats, Knight vs Pike wins,
Knight loses, elite Horse loses, MDI goes against longbow and...

MGL Etana

He immediately builds another army. Knight beats knight, others move for cover.
IBT Longbow loses to Endiku, no other attacks, but we see a few defenders come
into Tonawanda.

[6] 410 AD - Theology comes in, we start Invention next. Sistine due in 15 in
Sumer but will take longer since GA will wear off.
Lost an MDI, beat a pike. IBT Two knights come from nowhere and kill a pike and MDI.

[7] 420 - Elite MDI beats one of those knights. Army kills another. We advance on their
city of Centralia, and pillage road out of Tonawanda that kept letting loose their
knights. IBT - Longbow loses to MDI but then Knight finishes it. Another knight
beats MDI. No more attacks but they leave some open.

[8] 430 - Let's "Bring it!" to the city of Centralia - since they chose to leave knights
and defenders in open instead of there. We bombard it twice and hit pikes, then
a vet MDI loses. Two vet MDI win, and a third captures the city. The army is now
free to hit two of the knights out in the open. The question now is, will they
have several units to hit the city next round, or are hitting the other open
units a higher priority. Longbows can't reach us, so yes, Knights are the key.
Sword hits pike on road linking Kahn to Centralia, and loses. Elite sword follows
up and... wins. Vet MDI beats a reg knight. Army takes to the city. A decent stack
moves up to Tonawanda including 2 pikes, 2 trebs, Endiku, horse and Knight (and a
worker to start on a road as soon as we take the city Behind them is an army that
will heal mid-round.

Horse at Hubishna retreats. Hmm, tis size one, if we win next attack it will
just be a raze. What's our exit strategy with Hitties? They have almost nothing
to give. Monarchy is a total insult, and they won't give any town except... ah,
Hubisha! That sounds like a deal. I'll take the peace now with Hittites, and
perhaps the WW will decrease? Besides, if they cross into our territory again,
we would be back at war if their huffiness matches our scrappiness, and that
would cause war happiness for being declared on. The only question is... now,
or in about two turns when we have a settler in the area? If they land a settler
in next two turns while we're at war, we can get rid of them. I'll hold off
just a few more.

We're going to need a settler or two for our backyard, or any gains will be
be lost when our foes bring more settlers. At least one for the iron - so I
swap Kish to Settler, as its 22spt aren't efficient for Knight production.
Akshak also. The other cities are right at 15spt great for Pikes or 24spt for Knights.

IBT - No hittite landings, or Iro landings, and no Iro counterattacks! Woo, I smell
gas!!! (Charcamesh the warmonger is driven to ecstasy with the smell of gas, there
is no letting up, just letting of blood!)

[9] 440AD - Kish starts the Heroic Epic (20spt, could be an MDI maker but I would love
even higher MGL chances) Outside of Centralia a longbow steps into a bad spot,
and a Knight is on a nearby hill. That sounds like a chance to heal the army to
be fresh for our next leader (smiles) and to hit bow with an elite.

Elite sword beats longbow, three bombards fail, then at Tonawanda the army beats
a pike but takes a beating in the process. A knight retreats, another retreats,
a horse retreats (sheesh), the army wins again but is now red.

IBT Knight at Tonawanda beats pike, longbow loses to pike, one more knights enters
the city, and a reg spear steps out. GA ends as anticipated, and lux was kicked up
one notch, but not quite enough. Umma riots but others checked ahead to avoid.

In disconerting news, Alexandria of Egypt completes Sistine. BAH!!! We weren't
exactly close, 16 turns away, and with the new cities we've snagged, Sumer can swap
to Palace and keep all those shields, making Leo's or something else likely. There
are 318 shields done, and palace is due in 5. Shoot!! Invention was due in 6 with
a GA economy, but now it's not due for 29 8-\ Actually, Sumer can be put on a huge
food diet, delaying Palace to 41 turns at 2spt. Hmmm, throwing all the excess people
on scientists and Invention due in 18. I might try some more scientists elsewhere

[10] 450AD - Speaking of other civs, who are they and how are they doing??
In top city list, Thebes and Zimbabwe are #1 and #2 with 1-2 wonders each,
then Salamanca, Memphis and Grand River. That means the other continent consists
of Egypt and Zulus, and via F10 we glimpse a vision of Mongols and Aztecs.
Judging from the top city list and wonder pop-ups, I'm going to guess the other
continent is like ours, two powers vying for top dog, and a few others in trouble.
Since they beat to Sistine by just a few, I would guess they're at a similar
spot in the tech race. If we can explore the seas and find them first we should be
able to catch up.

Habushna in the south is size 2?? They didn't whip? Let's rock! Two spears
are defeated and the city is ours! That's good for two reasons: i) we can now
stay at bogus-war with Hittites and can take this opportunity to fill in that back
area with settlers with no foes competing for it, and ii) as I think about it,
they declared on us, and ending the war would likely decrease happiness, not increase
it, as we don't have much/any WW with Hittites.

Also in the South we brought some firepower to bear this round, 4 knights ready
to hit Gandastaigon of the Iro. First one redlines but beats a spear. A longbow
we now see last turn LEFT the city to go... I dunno, worker hunting?
A second knight captures the city and two workers In the area now are a few
knights and MDI, and a spare Pikeman, with one settler on the way.

Outside Tonawanda, MDI beats the spear and promotes to elite. He's worth protecting
so a pike and Endiku join him. The army returns to city to heal next round or two,
as is the other army. I don't expect much counterattack this round, so healing up
and leaving next leader in good shape seems better than over pushing for the glory
of Tonawanda "Hold" Tona positions for 2 turns while army heals (or swing the
other army over next turn - by bringing up another Pike and/or Endiku next turn.
Then when all your force is in place, it should fall in one round. The jungle
forces should shift left or back after this turn.

Post-GA, Ur is 25spt (maybe swap Heroic Epic up here due in 6)
Lagash is 15spt, a nice Pike city. Tippecanoe is ALMOST 10spt, try to get it up.
Note Chondote looks corrupt but later game will be fine (so it's on a CTH now)

Centralia is scientist happy. COntinue to starve it down (and reassign the sci each
turn!) or rush a few workers out of there. I've put as many scientists to work as
I can, as that seems to do a LOT for our rate to Invention. It's balanced now
with 10%sci and 40% lux (due to WW) to be +1gpt and Invention in 12 turns.

We may want to consider Lagash for FP, could be done in 9!! The beta patches for
the FP suggest that the best place to build it will be rather near to capital,
and the earlier the better! Our Knight production has dried up with GA over,
(then again we have two full armies of them!) If you think you have enough troops
on hand, then take Ur and Lagash to Epic and FP right now, otherwise let their
knights finish in 1, then swap over.

War exit strategies? Here's my strong suggestion:
- Hittites, stay at war until we get our second settler down there and have taken
our choice of two locations, probably grabbing the iron (right at the ruin site!)
and horses (either on the spot where a worker now sits or a tiny village SW of
the horses about two squares) If they come up with a tech in next few turns,
it would be nice.
- Iro - For *SURE* do not stop the war now!! Tonawanda is SO toast with two armies
in the area. In fact, I fully expect Tonawanda and Allegheny to fall in the first
half of the next player turn. When it does, consider razing Allegheny - and whether
you do or not, settle "Panama City" on the single chokepoint tile (or one square
back, and build a fortification right in front of us on the chokepoint) We'll
want one city there and a secona "Panama West" on that jungle tile. Together these
two cities will let us shift later ships across the continent!!
I just saw now that Iro have Invention (hence the price drop) and PP as well as
Monarchy. They won't give us either of the first two, and Monarchy just isn't that
valuable for us (HG are built, btw). If we can self-research Invention in the next
10-ish turns, capture the two cities, and settle Panama/West at the end of 10 as they
get Gunpowder (or Education) and we want to stop anyway due to WW, we'll have perfect
'closing' conditions to the war and get a tech for peace in addition to a TOTAL lock
out of anyone stomping across our scrappy homeland! Good luck trying to accelerate
Invention to due-in-9.

So for these key city sites I just short-rushed settlers in Zabalan and Agade, who
will both make it into position around turn 8 or 9 of the next players turn
(I didn't make a settler in Centralia as its nationality would be Iro! Ew!)

Charis
Kylearan <-- UP
Grimjack <-- On Deck
Aggie
Griselda
Speaker

RBC6 Save file 450AD

Let's be scrappy!
Charis

 

[Charis]

Allowed me to follow up Speaker's excellent illustrated tips with my own comments
with a screenshot of our new land, and how we got it.

This turn has continued a 'classic' Civ3 war plan - first you absorb the best and
the fastest the AI can throw at you, in YOUR turf, and with you fully choosing the
terrain, and when the floodgates turn to a trickle and the ground is stained with
blood, now you press on the offensive, taking as much as you can the highground,
and switching your focus from kill-ratio to city taking. The former is still important
of course, as you don't want to throw away troops. But if the AI steps out and kills
two lesser units in the open and in doing so leaves the city less well guarded, you'll
take even trades of units! The steps in my part of the campaign were:

1. Use our fortification as a forward deployment zone where Knights could attack out
of initial safety to hit the west town in 1 turn.
2. With the advantage of high ground cover, we move the SLOW stack up the hill/mtn
around Kahna, fortify pikes, bring up MDI and take it.
3. SHORT period of healing and taking on that new dribble of attacking units.
4. use the road to hop from Centralia to the cover of the Hill, where they could
attack Centralia in one turn, and use Knights (and new army) to take that.
5. Several Knights and foes hurt us outside of Tonawanda, so we used our army's
free pillage ability to knock out their road, THEN PULL BACK. This left some of
their units now sitting ducks for counterattack, unable to hit us. Repelling these
units, we now advance a combo of slow units of good defense, with Trebs, along
with fast units and army which will be the ones to take the city. (Their great
urge to retreat last round means they're back home for 2 turns to heal first)
6. Once Tonawanda is ours, consolidated for a turn and with units healed, OR if that
goes slow and our fast East flank is ready to rock, we'll hop quickly onto
the hill outside Allegheny, from which our Knights and army can attack in one turn
and from which any longbow coming out will get slaughtered without us having to
leave a knight exposed.
7. Seal off the chokepoint, set the terms for peace, and the ENTIRE subcontinent
will be ours!

Note it was Speakers superb 'defensive massacre' that set this up, and Griselda's
excellent positioning and getting us in our GA that made this turn possible, as this
campaign had two parts: i) GET to a position of superior local force (GA+death trap)
followed by exploitation of a short-lived superiority to take our gains.

A final note, this is NOT the only way to carry out a campaign, in fact it
will fail miserably in other circumstances. For example, trying to go slow at first
is awful when you have a suprise war, a very weak border, and a very strong foe who
will be able to bring a monster army to bear, but not for 8-10 turns. Then speed is of
the essence. Likewise, given this same map and cavalry era, it may have look very
different as well. This "aborb and counter" strategy works well when:
- You have a foe with a distinctly stronger army than you do that needs more than
anything else to be whittled down to size.
- You have a nice open ground separating your territories that can be setup as
a killing field.
- Where you have the luxury of time and lack of a second 'serious' foe and can take
the *30* turns it will take to see this war to completion.
- When the era is pre-move-3 units
- When the defenders don't sit in size 13 cities or have high defense values
- When you have a decent number of good strength fast attack units that can kill AND
retreat to keep your losses down.
- When you JUST enter a GA (as we did) and that absorb time up front is actually letting
you crank out all the attackers you will need for phase II.

I hope that helps explain some of the thought processes that go on behind
the apparent massacre
Charis

 

[Aggie]

Originally posted by Charis
I hope that helps explain some of the thought processes that go on behind
the apparent massacre
Charis

"We get nowhere unless the TEAM wins"... Great job anyway Charis

EDIT: And thank you and Speaker for the excellent write-ups.

 

[Charis]

> "We get nowhere unless the TEAM wins"...

Oh my, indeed yes!! I sure hope I didn't give any impression otherwise -- I tried to make sure that to clarify the gaining of cities was not a one person but a whole team effort!! Every single person in this game is dong an outstanding job!

:love2:
Charis

 

[Kylearan]

Got it.

 

[Kylearan]

Because of several spectacular sets of turns from our last leaders, I can enjoy the grim satisfaction of beating on the gassed Iroquois during my reign - thank you for that. Let's see how I can hurt them!

But I don't want us to come into a similar situation like in RBC1, where we fought too much and neglected infrastructure for too long and ended up with a weak economy, so I swap Lagash to the FP. It's too near to our capital for my taste, since according Sorens/Firaxis explanation how it works now, it does help the cities around it so a location a bit farther away would be better. I considered Umma instead to help our northern cities, but finally decided that an earlier FP would be better, especially considering that we don't know how the FP will work in future patches.

I also swap Ur to Heroic Epic in six to get it earlier as well and not to waste so many shields there in knight production. Kish is set to colosseum instead. Micromanaging also drops the ETA for invention to 10@-1gpt instead 12@+1gpt (all inexact ETAs, of course, with all the starving and settler producing).

(I) Two regular Iro knights attack the jungle at Tonawanda, one wounding our pike and retreating, the other killing our Enkidu warrior. The Iros start Leo's.

460AD (1): A knight kills an Iro longbow down in the south. In the north, our healed army moves to Tonawanda to capture the city next turn while our other army heals.

(I) The Hitties land an archer and a spear two tiles away from Agade and empty Umma. The Iros land a settler/pike pair near the iron in the south, and hm...maybe I should have let the knights in Ur and Lagash complete, because the jungle tile at Tonawanda gets attacked by four knights. One retreats, two kill our two pikes without taking a scratch, and the fourth dies against our Enkidu warrior.

470AD (2): Grand. We hove absolutely no units near the landed Hitties, so our newly healed army has to attack them - what a waste. Down south, the pike dies and we have two more slaves. Near Tonawanda, I decide to deliberately expose the jungle tile to lure out the units from Tonawanda - no sense letting our pikes getting slaughtered there.

(I) Four knights and a longbow enter the jungle tile, and another knight appears north of Tonawanda. Lots of galleys move along our coast, probably to the spot where the Hitties have landed last turns.

480 AD (3): Reinforcements from the south arrive near Umma so that our army can return to the battle scene at Tonawanda. I don't want to lose a single unit, because we are short of knights and because of war weariness, so I decide to let the Iro knight stack advance into our territory. They have no city of ours in reach and can only go either on a hill near Kahnawake or out in the open, so the army fighting the hitties last turn blockades the hill and patiently waits for the knights to arrive. This will deny them the jungle bonus and also will seperate the longbow from the knights, avoiding defensive bombardment.

Kisura is founded near the iron, and I micromanage Lagash so it will finish the FP in 5 at a slight food deficit. ETA for invention is still 10 turns, because all the great scientists of Centralia are dying out.

(I) As expected, the knights and the longbow seperate and are all in open terrain now. Another three knights leave Tonawanda.

490 AD (4): First, our elite horse goes fishing and kills the longbow in the open, but has no luck. Then, the three knights are killed by our army, promoting one knight in it to elite. War weariness has increased a great deal unfortunately, but more knights from the south will arrive next turn, so I don't make peace yet - but I have to increase lux to 50%, set research to zero and hire entertainers in some of our cities.

(I) We lose a fortified pike on a hill to a knight without doing any damage. What's up with my luck this turn?!?

500 AD (5): This turn or never! Our trebuchet wounds a pike in Tonawanda, then a vet knight kills a vet pike in the city. Then, two vet MDIs attack and both kill vet pikes - yay, my luck has returned. All three attackers have absorbed bombardment damage as well. A longbow is defending the city now, so our elite MDI attacks next.

We capture two trebuchets and seven(!) workers. The leader immediately forms an army, empty for the moment, then our elite horse goes fishing again, killing the longbow. The captured trebuchets redline both knights, and a wounded MDI and a wounded EW barely finish them off so the the armies can heal this turn. We have lux at 50%, no research except with scientists, make -18gpt with a meager treasury of 66 gold and galleys are underway to invade our backyard - so what? Let the war continue, I say!

Der is founded in the south, and I put Sumer on palace full time again, done in 16 - we will have invention by then, one way or another.

(I) One Iro knight appears, nothing more. And our people want to build the Pentagon! Maybe we should...?

510AD (6): We complete the heroic epic, which is another sign we should ignore the peaceniks and continue the war. Our armies move onto the hill near Allegheny - one is not yet fully healed, but this war must end quickly now. Our trebuchets wound the knight, but I do not kill it because I wouldn't be able to provide cover afterwards. The citizens of Tonawanda turn into scientists in remembrance to the great minds of Centralia.

(I) The wounded knight attacks a knight of ours and is killed.

520 AD (7): Sieges are for sissies I say, so I decide to attack Allegheny with our two armies right away. Well, three pikes and a longbow are no match for our armies, and we capture the city, looting much needed 27 gold! (Otherwise we would have been broke the turn after the next...). We spot a knight and a spearman on the choke point. I move a large stack containing a settler towards the southern choke and spot another three knights. We will have to endure two more turns of war to seal the choke. We have a lot of empty cities now, but who cares?

(I) Ouch, seven knights attack us this turn, most of them the settler stack, and we lose a knight, a pike and an MDI. We kill only one, three knights retreat.

530 AD (8): Both settler move into position this turn, and the northern city is founded in neutral territory. While I do this I realize that I should have razed Allegheny, not capture it - . I go fishing again and send an elite EW against a redlined knight, but he dies. Our elite horse, sword and MDI kill three, though, but without spawning a leader. Then a vet MDI kills a knight and promotes, and a knight kills a spear. One army garrisons the chokepoint city while the other one heals - I plan to use them one last time before the war is over!

(I) With our units on the choke point, several Iro knights head for Grand River, probably to get on a boat. Our settler stack remains unattacked.

540 AD (9): Marad is founded, and our subcontinent is safe from trespassers. But before I make peace, I'd like to hurt the Iros some more! The founding of Marad has brought Niagara Falls into reach for our knights, and it would be great if we could get rid of it! That would bring silks into reach of Kua, and would relieve both chokepoint cities from cultural pressure, so here we go...vet knight attacks, absorbs a trebuchet shot and kills reg pike. 3hp vet knight attacks, absorbs another trebuchet shot, and retreats. Our first army attacks, absorbs a longbow shot and...loses ten hitpoints in a row against a reg pike before killing it! Ouch. Our other army attacks twice, killing another pike and the longbow...and noooo! A redlined knight shows up, and I have no more knights. Hmpf, so I take chances and attack with our 2hp army...

Yeah! Since I will make peace this turn anyway, a wounded elite MDI takes out another redlined knight. Then I talk to Hiawatha. He has education, but won't part with it. He also has printing press which we would barely able to get, but it's of no real use to us, so I take monarchy, invention and 45 gold instead. A bit unsatisfying, but oh well.

I set research to education in 9 and rush a settler.

550 AD (10): The forbidden palace is completed, not changing much. In fact, we're making 2gpt less than before.



Notes:

Please turn the ex-Iro citizens into scientists every turn, and maybe Allegheny should be abandoned and refounded? Not sure about that. We are still at war with the Hitties, just because it doesn't make a difference. I have also built a galley which could be sent onto a suicide run to find the other continent.

Leo's will be finished in 10 turns, and I also have started the pentagon, but that could be changed to anything. The settler is on the way to the game tile in the southeast - there could be a nice fishing village.

That had been a fun round! At first I thought I wouldn't be able to make any more progress against the Iros because of all the knights showing up and the immense war weariness, but I'm glad we managed to seal off our territiry now!


Grimjack - UP NOW
Aggie - on deck


Make new contacts?

-Kylearan

 

[Aggie]

Originally posted by Kylearan
550 AD (10): The forbidden palace is completed, not changing much. In fact, we're making 2gpt less than before.

Do you have a patch installed? This shouldn't be possible as from patch 1.12.

Besides that: awesome turn

What now? Do we have to end the war soon to build some much needed infra, or do you continue because the Iroquois seem to be crippled?

EDIT: note to self: read before you write, we are at peace already

 

[Charis]

That was a delightful read on several accounts!

> don't want to ignore infrastructure so I swap...
As it turns out, the right call, but twas very dicey without a few extra knights. It was the GA-fueled constant reinforcement of troops that let the lower-kill-ratio offensive press on.
And now... we have a FP, cool! Don't sweat it if short term it doesn't seem too useful. On an upcoming patch now in testing you'll see it do at least a little bit better, and when we get courthouses in the NW cities, coruption will go do quite a bit.

> The Hitties land an archer and a spear two tiles away from
> Agade and empty Umma.
Well that is of course the downside of 'pulling your goalie' and pushing troops to the front. When they went forward I knew that the Knights 'coming up' would cover them, then promptly forgot that fact and suggested a switch off knights

> ETA for invention is still 10 turns, because all the great
> scientists of Centralia are dying out.


A third army?? Pentagon in the Knight era? That dog will hunt!

I started reading about the big jump in WW and figured you might stop with Tonawanda... was nervously reading to see whatcagonnado and ...

> We have lux at 50%, no research except with scientists, make
> -18gpt with a meager treasury of 66 gold and galleys are
> underway to invade our backyard - so what? Let the war
> continue, I say!

[dance] Oh ya!

> The citizens of Tonawanda turn into scientists in remembrance
> to the great minds of Centralia.
(I was amazed how many turns it shaved off to make six scientists in one city)

Wow, that was close - relying on the gold from a city capture to keep your treasury checks from bouncing is tight, a Ca-Ching maneuver for sure!

> I realize that I should have razed Allegheny, not capture it
I disagree actually, Allegheny serves a crucial purpose, cultural protection for our vital Panama City East. (Woo, I just looked and noticed you DID found Panama West, aka Murad, excellent)

Sure Allegheny will be useless, but it will provide 45 scientist-turns worth of research as it is starved down (or a worer or two if rushed) - any relieve on Panama is crucial. Taking back Allegheny if it flips will be easy, retaking the canal spot would be tough.

You razed Niagara? Wow! Good job, generalissimo!
Great move to take that cultural pressure off the choke, and quite daring.

I hope we can snag Leo's, since we'll have no other wonder tech within the time frame we need, for any swap (other than palace).

> I set research to education in 9 and rush a settler.
This will alleviate the shame of the scientific mostly-self-researching Sumerians of being out-researched by captured peasants in Centralia!

> We are still at war with the Hitties, just because it doesn't
> make a difference.
We're probably still in a minorly happy state rather than a WW sad state, so if you make peace soon (not a bad idea) just be sure you could absorb having to push lux up a notch. Since we can't pay cash for techs we'll get zip from them - a 'discount' is not allowed.

> I have also built a galley which could be sent onto a suicide run
> to find the other continent.

Whatever the means, our highest priority is now making contact with the other civs. Second priority, also important, is to have a huge infra boost (in particular courthouses in weaker spots, univ in strong spots) to offset all this mongering

> That had been a fun round! ... I'm glad we managed to seal off
> our territiry now!

Who would have thunk if when looking at the situation before the start of the war? Great job, guys.

Good luck to Grimjack and Aggie in their question to restore peace (and prosperity!) to our scrappy nation!

Charis

 

[Kylearan]

Charis, thanks for the reminder that we cannot get a discount on tech during peace deals - I was so preoccupied with fighting that I totally forgot about that one. Now I'm glad we were broke when I made peace.

Aggie, I have installed v1.12, but didn't bother to patch further since I lost count on which version is out now or where to get it - I hope that won't make problems when somebody playes with a newer version?

Oh, and the Iros aren't crippled - it's we who are crippled. The Iros have *lots* of knights still running around, while we only have three (or four?) left. For that reason, I left the army empty; it sits at Tonawanda at the moment, probably waiting for more modern units.

-Kylearan

 

[Aggie]

Originally posted by Kylearan
Aggie, I have installed v1.12, but didn't bother to patch further since I lost count on which version is out now or where to get it - I hope that won't make problems when somebody playes with a newer version?

Oh, and the Iros aren't crippled - it's we who are crippled. The Iros have *lots* of knights still running around, while we only have three (or four?) left. For that reason, I left the army empty; it sits at Tonawanda at the moment, probably waiting for more modern units.

-Kylearan

I have been playing with patch 1.12 as well.

And regarding the Iro's: reading the comments, I think that you, Charis and me are on the same page with that one. Infra is needed now (but we remain scrappy )

 

[Grimjack]

I see it, and will start playing tonight. Barring any unexpected Jack-in-the-Box appearances of the Iros/HItties, I should be done tonight since it seems relatively peaceful.

Grimjack.

 

[Speaker]

Nice turns Kylearn! I assume we'll save that 3rd army for Cavalry? I played on 1.13 for what it's worth.

 

[Grimjack]

RBC6 Scrappy Sumerians.

Short term goal(s) Finally start cranking tech like we are supposed to do.
See if there is any truth in the rumors about lost civilizations on the other side of the great sea.

550AD(0) Our treasurer comes in and is somewhat disturbed. He claims our 15 chests of gold will not cover current spendings for more than 8 ages. As focus is on science, I pretend not to hear him, and finally he leave, muttering about old fools....
It feels a bit off to build libraries before courthouses or temples, but we need the culture in outlying cities. And also, we may get an extra beaker. Switch Lagash from empty courthouse to empty Cathedral prebuild for University. ( And hope science advisor do not lie too much about time to market. )
Then realize we are scientific, and switch to knight. I figure we are somewhat lean after the recent adventures.
Iros look fearsome in spite of the beating we administered against them.

IBT: Hittites sail aimlessly around in our territorial waters. Caugh.. Library->Courthouse,

560AD Our empty city Tonawanda has some small cultural pressure, so I move our empty army further inland. I suspect he will get a cavalry battalion, so he will be able to get to the front quite fast.
Erech gets a scientist for two turns until temple completes.

IBT: From out of the blue, yellow barbarian knights appear and land a small force on our southeastern part of the continent. They call themselves Egyptians, and have oceangoing ships called caravels.

570AD Scout the Egyptian encampment, and discover they are about to build a city on OUR continent. Not enough they make me green with envy at their advanced techs, they settle on a most valuable tundra.
They are up Education and Gunpowder that I can see, which means that the Iros have Printing press on them.
The Hittites are three tiles away in their caravel, so I am tempted to trade world maps for the 30 gold Egyptians can pay. I instead trade territory maps with them, hoping the Hittites will get Gunpowder from them for their world maps, perhaps making a trade bait when we get Education.
Get 20 gold as a get to know us gift when we exchange territory maps. It is a long stretch of black water from their nearest city. Wonder how they managed to reach us.
I turn our galley around, seeing if I can use the Egyptian passage myself. Iros are being stubborn, and wont trade us silks for gems and contact with Egyptians. Then he gets to pay us for our gems. I get 180 gold for our gems. Reason I helped him out with his happiness being that I would not want him coming and demanding them in 5-10 turns when I was at my busiest building Universities.
I am a bit scared though that I could trade contacts with Iros. If I remember correctly, that is Navigation. With some fresh gold in our coffers, I increase spendings on tech.

IBT: As expected, Egypt settles on our southeastern tip. I will see if I can squeeze in a fishing village there as well. Erech Temple->Pikeman ( MP ), Iros start Copernicus. Thats OUR wonder. Now that HIttites have contact with Egyptians, I sell to Iros for 120 gold. Should haev sold last turn, lucky that break still existed.

580AD I up research even more, in a perhaps vain attempt at opening up the tech tree. My treasury advisor are getting really restless with the 138 gold deficit in our balance sheets, but Hopefully that is short term only.

IBT: Lagash Knight->Univ prebuild Tyendenaga: Library->Courthouse, Palace Expansion, Iros statr Bach's ,

590AD We now have contact with Zulu warriors, Zulus interestingly enough do not have Education, though they have printing press and Gunpowder. They also have contacts with two other civilizations. I smell a good turn trading next turn shoudl I manage to squeeze out enough beakers for Education.
Buy contact with Aztecs from Egypt for wines. I confiscate 120 treasure chests of bribes meant for the wine merchants. Aztecs are up Gunpowder and down Chivalry and Theology. My nose start to twitch badly at the unrealized trading opportunities present. Before I lose control, I dial up the Egyptians once more. I get contact with Mongols, 6 gpt and 130 gold for our Gems. Temujin are poor, but he has a lot of techs.
Since I am to proud to buy Education for something as crass as gold, I will see what the Aztecs are willing to pay for our techs. He must surely know that SUmerian knowledge is far superior to any other knowledge. Being as I am so king, I will grant him both Theology as well as Chivalry for Gunpowder and his treasury of 5 gold. We do have one roaded Saltpeter. Readjust science grants, now that we know several ways of Education, Education is much easier to research.
Guess which of our real close neighbours does NOT have Saltpeter ?
Marad ( Panama West ) is a bad flip risk for the next couple of turns, so I move our army out of it. ( Knowing I increase said flip risk by doing it. ) I rush the libraries in the Panamas instead as compensation.
Cannot find any AI knowing Chemistry, but I will see if I can pick up a wonder tech ASAP, as I still have 6-7 turns on Leos.

IBT: We have six Hittite galleys heading for waters unknown along our coasts. Education comes in, and I set our scientists on Chemistry for now. Miss pressing 'Bigger Picture', and Kish's Cathedral completes.

600AD Rename Marad and Kua to Paname East and West. I am disappointed with the Zulu. IN spite of our fine offering of Education of the highest grade, the Sumerian grade, they will not help us out with schoolbooks made by a printing press.
They do not even have money to offer for it. Egypt got Chemistry this turn, and the only chance of salvaging a monopoly would be banking. I go for Banking. I cannot get any wonder tech within the five turns I need it in case we do not get Leos. This will likely be extremely tight.
I am hoping I can use Banking to get Chemistry, as I suspect more AIs will know chemistry than banking in some 10-12 turns.

IBT: Chondote Tenmple->Courthouse, Tippecanoe Temple->Granary, Isin Temple->University, Mongols start Copernicus,

610 No wonder Zulus wouldn't give us Printing press. This turn they have Education. I can still hope Aztecs pick up Printing Press or Chemistry, letting us trade them Education for it.

IBT: Still no sign of any Hittite ground forces.

620 Found Kuara a small fishing village.

IBT: The Hittites had travelled all around our lands to land an archer and two spears near our core. We only have two knights withing striking range, so likely they will pillage a tile.
Umma produces University->Knight, My bad, a fishing village riots when I forgot to send them their yearly allotment of junk food. Iroq start Magellans.

630 Our galley survived a long and hard sail across the sea, and now they can map the other continent. Hmm, correction, I had one knight in range. Kill off the top spear taking two hits, and move up another knight and a horse. Horse could have attacked spear, but that would have left him alone on the grass should he manage to win against a spear.

IBT: I cross my fingers before this one, as we now have two turns left only on Leos. Bach's might have been better, but I really had no chance of landing that one.
The Hittites ATTACK our knight with their archer, making our knight elite after shaving off two hit points. The spear moves against an unguarded city instead of causing some pillage harm. Really weird play by the AI here.
Erech completes a musket, and starts a cathedral as I realize I cannot use MPs in quite that way in a representative government
Kahnawake LIbrary->Courthouse, Get really nervous as I get a wonder completion notice, but it is Magellans which is completed in Thebes, Thinking Leos is safe, I click the little ring, only to be greeted by completion of Leos in Heliopolis. Mongols switch to Copernicus.

640Ad I consider my options. I have 593 shields in Sumer. I do not want to waste those. We have banking in nine, and it is likely we could trade that for Astronomy or Music Theory. HOwever, would the wonder race still be alive at that time. I could waste 80 shields of Pentagon to build a cathedral in Ur, letting us switch between Pentagon and Palace. HOwever with three armies, Pentagon would let us do nasty things to Iros, so I want Pentagon as well.
If I was playing safe, I would switch Ur to Cathedral or University, and Sumer to Pentagon, losing a couple of hundred shields, but I will take a chance here, and prolong production in Sumer for a palace, and hope we can get a wonder tech before Palace build gets critical.
Seven shields. :angry:. I start Sumer on Palace and a nutritious diet of fish, giving Palace in 27. ( Since no wonder available costs more than 600 shields, we will get that wonder if it is available when we get the tech. ) I regret my choice of Banking, as I could have gotten Music Theory in a turn or two. I let Ur continue building the Pentagon. When I look around for some leader fishing, the HIttite spear who had travelled across half the world just to land in our core, has disappeared within sight of our city walls.
I am starting to run out of worker projects in the south, and begin roading up our coastline. I rush an Enkidu in our newest city before I can road it in next turn. Tyrana is the smallest city of the HIttites, but they are not willing to give it to us in exchange for peace.
Turns to complete Banking are down to eight with the two completed universities making heavy contributions.
Switch Umma to Cathedral as we have happiness problems and I do not want to go to 30% lux tax. I want to have more scientists. I am tempted to stop paying lux tax, and hire scientists instead to make up for happiness, but that would stump growth to much.
I start up enough scientists to shave Banking down to seven turns.
Argg, detects some mild as I did not have workers ready to road the silks as the borders expanded. I wake up some workers from wetlands duty, and they will be ni place next turn.

IBT: Lagash University->Knight, Iros cascade to Bachs. Now THAT is a wonder I would appreciate, having two extra happiness would let us lower lux by quite a bit.

650AD Our Banking gambit may fail, as Egypt show up with it safely in hand, and us with still 5 turns left to go. Egypt has monopoly on both Banking and Chemistry. Since we do not have Printing press, it is unknown if they also have monopoly on Democracy.
If no one else research Banking though, and all AIs are tied up in Democracy research, we stand to get quite a few techs from our research. If we had money, I think we could have swung a four tech deal.
But whatever you do, try to land JS Bachs in Sumer.
Still at war with Hittites, and we have no visible war weariness in cities without Hittite citizens. One of their cities is at doubtful.
We do have quite a few scientists, but we coule get faster Banking if we went all out and hired loads of Scientists instead of paying lux taxes.

Here is save

Grimjack

Go for it Aggie.

 

[Aggie]

This is one of the most compelling peace write-ups that I have ever read! Unlucky with Leo, unlucky with science deals... it wasn't your day

Got it. I will probably again have two SG's to play on a night that I am home late. Just like last week

 

[Charis]

That was indeed a gripping read. SO close on Leo's! IF we get Bach's there, tis a blessing in disguise though! It was a tough call earlier, but we may have kept Sumer on 'fish' one turn too long
I hope we can reach MT in time.

As I peek at the save and look at F8, and F4, there's something extremely odd. Egypt is *waaaay* out in front on tech. Four or so visible tech plus Navigation. Yet on score and power, the Aztecs make the Egyptians look like chumps. Yet they're down Education too! I can see a bloodbath war between those two at some point, and the sooner the better. (Tis delightful saltpeter is missing in Iro lands. Come Mil Tradition they sure as heck better not get us feeling scrappy! )

Now that contact is made however, we're in deeper trouble than before. The tech pace will now double, but unable to buy in for brokering deals, we must be diligent not to fall behind. That means more universities and banks in top commerce core cities immediately. If any high shield low commerce cities, let them do the knight building duty.

BTW, we've not discussed patches in a while, but we should probably be using v1.15 here. The nice thing is the save files are all compatible between 1.12/13/15 so if you only have one installed you can just use it, but since we've actually built a FP, I can see no reason not to get a little better boost from it. v1.15 link is given in the "Conquests" forum with a link given by Tavis (from Firaxis), so it's a real beta.

Should be a good game ahead of us... have fun Aggie!
Charis

PS Edit - If Banking is due in 6, you might well want to move on tile in Ur to get Pentagon due in 7. If we are able to get Astronomy then Ur could swap to Copernicus just in time.

 

[Grimjack]

I also could not understand why Egypt was so far above the rest in tech. My only guess is a late GA.
As to why they are so low in power, it may be due to their two largest cities building wonders instead of units.
I just hope we can swing a Music Theory from Banking. I am clueless as to why in 6 turns neither Iros, nor Mongols demanded Chemistry from Egyptians.

Grimjack

 

[Aggie]

Do we want gpt from the Iroquois? I'd say 'yes', because it will take more than 20 turns (edit: about 15 turns) for Cavalry.

 

[Charis]

Well we're planning to keep OUR end of the peace treaty, so I can't see why not (take gpt from Iro). If it takes 15 turns to get cav, having 5 turns of cav building would certainly be nice. Without salt (?) they're in trouble. They probably can and should be wiped off the map before Nationalism

Good guess Grimjack - must be a late GA and/or SGL. As long as that kind of tech pace isn't sustainable. Fortunately for us, they have Monopoly on everything so the rest of the AI won't get it immediately and leave us in the dark.

Good luck with trading, maps, chokepoint defense, infrastructure, juggling the wonder race, and of course... being scrappy!

Charis